Respect for Help Asked for & Offered

[Benedict]

While I get some may feel this better in another section, I feel it needs to be read, understood and acted out far more broadly than a Kitchen rant. This is not just a RT thing but it can be changed here.

To people in general: if you post asking for opinions or help then ignore or dump on people who give you their time (the most precious resource as it can never be gotten back) then you are a taker and not being honest or kind. I get that not all positive criticism always feels that way at first but if you are not able to make that distinction then best you don't ask for what you don't want. Instead, be honest and make your OP say "I know it's scruffy but I need you to only tell me positive things" so that anyone not interested in playing that game doesn't come out being insulted when they tried to help as requested.

The whole idea of a Forum like this is Build not destroy. When you ignore or otherwise dump on someone who gave you their time, you destroy far more than you build. That includes your own personal reputation and professionalism. As I just read in another group where the usual not enough women in synths came up a woman who's been in the game (not "on") for 20+ years said (and I paraphrase) that in that time the only people who ever were derogatory towards her have never gone anywhere. The working pros were always very kind and offered time & help freely. She said she saw the two as related. They are.

If you hope to be better then be better, not in you mixes but as a professional. The mixes will follow - maybe because by being kind, you may find that the offer to work with you will be seen as an opportunity to be building rather than an insult to your ego.

[orthodox]

This is a just observation, and I confess to being neglectful and ignoring replies on some occasions.

What's interesting is whether this statement is incited by some recent activity on the forum. Because I just haven't noticed anything weird recently.

[Benedict]

There was something in particular but this is common everywhere day after day as I said and does so much damage. Sadly you may not notice it as unusual as ignoring & dumping on each other is the norm on Social Media.

In a smaller group (than say KVR), it might just get a moment or two of traction and make the world a better place - fulfill the purpose of a group like this and help people really build something instead of crying about not being able to do things when there are people willing and able to help if actually talking & working together became a real thing.

Neil Young gets it across here in the first few minutes. It is all about being a musician and working with people as equals. It might be one name but in reality, is many talented people doing what they are good at to make something greater. A Forum like RT is like a recording studio in that we have all these people here who could be working together instead of hiding away and pretending they have to do it all alone.

[Raveshaper]

Well said.

I'm in therapy now and it's generally true in all things that it's much harder to rebuild something than it is to just build it.

I still read threads from time to time, but this one is important enough that I decided to chime in.

As a creative community, especially one that is heavily do it yourself, the value that we get out depends on what we put in. We have to each be the type of person we hope to find on the other end.

Be kind to each other, listen, and submit more demos to the music section.

[xboix]

Like most forums this one has a handful of idiots who just want to score points over others and be "clever". But for the most part this is one of the better forums. I used to be on a forum where you could place forum members on "ignore". You could see that they had posted but choose whether to reveal their words. I found it quite satisfying to just "turn off" certain people!

[Benedict]

Like most forums this one has a handful of idiots who just want to score points over others and be "clever". But for the most part this is one of the better forums. I used to be on a forum where you could place forum members on "ignore". You could see that they had posted but choose whether to reveal their words. I found it quite satisfying to just "turn off" certain people!

Yeah I get that and kinda agree but let's not go on that tangent.

It is the things that people can pass off as ok because they are so used to it but in reality, would have gone so much better- deeper - if they had actually engaged instead of sitting with their ego and not replying or replying in a snarky way.

And totally not know what opportunity they just blew.

[MrFigg]

I think it’s also a skill if you can answer a snarky comment without retaliating with another snarky comment. Keep it either friendly or failing that, objective.

[miyaru]

I'm on other forums too, and what strikes me is that on some of them people say "it doesn't work bla bla" - give no info whatsoever, and expect the others to solve their problems. I mentioned it more then one time. It is true, we have to be kind, why not at all? But everybody has to play the game fair and friendly. On some forums I don't chime in to help anymore, because if you mention the above you get barked off. They will tell you, you are negative, not friendly at all, and all they are seeking is help, not questions about their setup and stuff........

My good intention for 2020 is not to get barked off anymore by people I don't even know.........

[Zac]

If someone is self-centred and lazy there's probably little anyone can say to change that. It's frustrating but I accept it and move on.

[motuscott]

Damn Neil Young!
The man knows what of he speaks!!

[orthodox]

I used to be on a forum where you could place forum members on "ignore". You could see that they had posted but choose whether to reveal their words. I found it quite satisfying to just "turn off" certain people!

It's there in User Control Panel / Friends&Foes / Manage Foes. But you may still see their words if someone quotes them. I see it as a last resort option and I used it only once on RT against a spammer.

[demt]

all we need is luv as to paraphrase john n paul

[Benedict]

I'm sorry but let's not be talking about the "but he was snarky and so I was too" stuff. Yes, that is related but if we only stop there, we have achieved nothing as that is still passing things off instead of doing something different.

What if: what if when you made a post asking for feedback or help, someone gave some advice that pressed a button (not meant as snarky but triggered one of your fears) but instead of ignoring the person or posting a hand grenade of how would you know anything, you engaged with a positive, what can I learn, how can I improve, win, mindset & attitude?

This transforms a hurtful situation for the help-giver + a guaranteed lose for the help-asker (seeing they are avoiding change which is where different lies) into a situation where real wins can be had. Everyone grows as people get more willing and better at offering help and the helped are exactly that: better off when their track works better. Especially if that sees people working together.

Why not: If someone offers to mix you track or make that sound, why not say Yes? In saying yes, your ego may take a pin prick (how dare anyone be better than me) but if your track takes a leap forward and you get for positive feedback, more fans... Surely that is the greatest of wins.

[MrFigg]

I don’t know Benedict. As far as i can see there’s not much nastiness, snidyness or backbiting on RT these days. There have been characters but those people come, shoot themselves in the foot and then go again. Folk who frequent RT, the regulars, are well aware of when people are over the score and more often than not question their negative behavior. In my experience the core RT users are extremely pleasant and helpful and newcomers are welcomed. I don’t personally think there’s a current problem to be addressed with the users who are reading this thread at the moment.

[dvdrtldg]

I do see this sort of thing occasionally, but more on social media than on RT. People on here seem pretty chill most of the time. Facebook is where the dickheads lurk, the guys (they're always guys) who want everyone to know that they're a pro with 35 years in the industry and thus have earned the right to shit on anyone who suggests it might be ok to stereo a kick drum. Fragile egos, not too many of them on here

[Benedict]

Again guys, while you have valid points they aren't the point I am making - related but on a tangent, therefore, will take this OT. I am trying very hard to keep this from being OT as the expected, "oh but we're better than everywhere else" thing changes nothing. Worse, it leads to what happened here before.

Yes RT allowed itself to become like a football scrum lousy with Trolls (who seemed to have community support) and I went away. Now it is a lot quieter (sadly a bit quiet) and more reasonable. BUT there is still a pretty fair tendency to see people who ask for help and then ignore the effort given - or worse respond with an attack.

Yes, this does happen everywhere and is commonly accepted and defended even if only with the "no we aren't gassing Jews here" defense.

What if: we said yes to opportunities provided when someone said here, let me help?

If I look back on my "career" the times I have gotten the best outcomes in accolades & awards for my work, it has been shared work. I worked with a film Director, Game Dev, or even another Composer. We let each other do what we do best and the works shone brighter.

Conversely, my greatest "fails", where projects nose-dived, were those where people declined, or worse said yes then walked away when they had to do a bit of work, had to invest or otherwise step past their fears. Those are lost opportunities.

[motuscott]

I'm a drummer God Dammit!
perhaps a little respect over the decades is not unwarrented
Yeah I know, don't listen...

[Zac]

...

Yes RT allowed itself to become like a football scrum lousy with Trolls (who seemed to have community support) and I went away.

...

Did you? In that case welcome back!

This thread makes more sense to me now. You like to give help. You don't like it when your offer is refused or ignored.

Gotcha

[orthodox]

What if: we said yes to opportunities provided when someone said here, let me help?

I don't know how it's done in music, I'm rather a developer, but wouldn't it create a problem of joint authorship? For example, I run a sole business entity and intend to keep it that way. I have already declined a couple of offers of assistance on this forum because of that, not because they questioned my excellence. I know that I suck at some things, but I still prefer to rely on my own abilities when it comes to business.

[teddymcw]

While I get some may feel this better in another section, I feel it needs to be read, understood and acted out far more broadly than a Kitchen rant. This is not just a RT thing but it can be changed here.

To people in general: if you post asking for opinions or help then ignore or dump on people who give you their time (the most precious resource as it can never be gotten back) then you are a taker and not being honest or kind.

The whole idea of a Forum like this is Build not destroy.

If you hope to be better then be better, not in you mixes but as a professional. The mixes will follow - maybe because by being kind, you may find that the offer to work with you will be seen as an opportunity to be building rather than an insult to your ego.

This is wonderful to address and your words here well resonate. To me the first thing here is that we are dealing with text explaining people's Art and ambitions, things that touch their very soul imo. There is so much lost in translation through text that a reader can grok negative things about their Art and ambitions without so much as trying. If a writer doesn't go through the effort and process to make the text very clearly written again it can easily be misconstrued into negativity of a variety of ways, and enable rampant miscommunication. We must constantly be cognizant of this as forum folks if you will.

Then, without knowing a particular individual writing it's even more difficult to know their tone and intention. There are a couple people here who a extremely terse texts and some with very sardonic humor and all of it I think is fantastic but it took a while to get their angle.

You as an individual are a great example of someone is not only very well reputed just knowledge wise, much less professionally and on this site, but actually have videos (recently discovered, amazing stuff!) that people can actually get the person's vibe and demeanor through rather than horroibly dry text (even with emojis haha.) However, that's certainly the exception. Someone very new will probably not know an individual's reputation or tone and take things much differently than a core RT user who isn't of an established culture. Thus, I'm afraid the onus of keeping a culture is back on the clarity and extra efforts of the core culture keepers if you will. It's not necessarily fair but the only way I've seen a good culture, like we have here, persist through crud and any amount of negativity. I see miscommunications and ignorances too much, esp about how deeply touching and individualist the subject matter at hand is - the Art of Expression through Music - can be.

Cheers Benedict and thank you for the time and directness it takes to address an issue that is the fabric of building through our interactions here. Talking about what most don't talk about is genius by some definitions and most excellent for many reasons!

[DougalDarkly]

Deleted

[bxbrkrz]

It is frustrating, yes.
The attitude is to never expect a thank you, online or in life. Give your help, give it all, and move on. Don't expect anything in return.

When people come asking for help on a forum like this, they are already frustrated by the problem. Maybe for hours, or days. First, they have to face the fact they can't find a solution and HAVE to ask for help. Second, when they get their answer, they may run back to work quick, or realized how trivial it was to solve, or both. They don't feel like staying around too long. In. Out.

When someone thanks you you should see it as an exception. And in a thread? As a miracle.

[jam-s]

Especially related to technical questions and about troubleshooting I can highly recommend to have read the good old "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" from the early days of the internet/usenet:
* http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-que ... html#intro

and also the Nettiquette:
* https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt

Those two documents imho should be mandatory reads for any internet user.

[guitfnky]

I get the desire to keep things to the narrow focus of the original post, but this is a forum—there are going to be tangents as people reflect on the topic at hand. that’s a good thing. you’ve got people thinking about being better to one another. that’s a big win!

[Benedict]

Thanks for the kind words. And Motus I saw you both times and thank you (even for being a drummer - if you want to sit in on one of mine...)

What if: we said yes to opportunities provided when someone said here, let me help?

I don't know how it's done in music, I'm rather a developer, but wouldn't it create a problem of joint authorship? For example, I run a sole business entity and intend to keep it that way. I have already declined a couple of offers of assistance on this forum because of that, not because they questioned my excellence. I know that I suck at some things, but I still prefer to rely on my own abilities when it comes to business.

Good Q

I have met versions of this a few times and been confused. Thanks for putting it clearer. There is sadly a lot of confusion about copyright esp right now with it finally being enacted on places like YouTube (if not a tiny bit heavy-handed sometimes). A lot of people are saying, and therefore encouraging thinking, really horribly messed up things about copyright what it is and what it means in action. A quick overview (please again let's not have this thread turn into pedantics about copyright - start your own threads please the Forum is limitless).

1. Copyright is essentially automatic. The moment you take an idea and put it into action in a new & unique way or form it is your Intellectual Property (I.P.). You have the right over how that idea or work is used. If many people work on a piece it is generally divided either automatically based on who provided the most important or pivotal parts or in a pre-defined agreement. Sting only provided a stray line to Dire Straits "Money For Nothing" but that "I want my MTV" line was pivotal. If you wrote the melody then you get more than the person who added a chord here & there. However, to make it easy, most projects start with an agreement on who is what. With Adrian & I (Vid above) he mostly wrote the core ideas and I fleshed them out. We decided that was easy: 50-50 split. We both worked hard in our own skillsets (his "time" in notes was less than mine + I Mixed, he made the Videos and got us on a Radio Show).

2. If someone stiffs you - if you start with a positive relationship then it is rare, you will smell the red flags - then move on. If they make nothing off stealing from you then you have lost nothing (but some anger and I get you on that as is it scuzzy). Vanilla Ice couldn't grow his career more because he had not enough talent. If you have the talent to do something worth stealing then you can do it again, they cannot. If they make real money then you can probably prove that you were at least a contributor to that success and they have something worth suing over - or at least making a YouTube video about to get some eyes on what you are doing now. In an attention economy that is a win right there that you probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

Don't let ownership fears be an excuse not to do it.

It is very tempting to have that I must do it alone thing. We seem to encourage it even. "I" this and "I" that. But as Neil Young says above he is only a small part of his success. Without all the other people adding their bits of amazing it would be Neil who? Don't be a Silo of one. Be part of something larger. Feels too New Age? Then look at the numbers: How many acts are there out there doing a good business who do it 110% themselves, no one else to lick the stamps or let the fans through the doors at 7:30PM? I bet you will come up with about 0 people.

Even I who have largely worked alone (not entirely by choice) rely on Bandcamp, YouTube, Wordpress... even Reason Talk, Microsoft & ReasonStudios to do my thing. We are not alone ever - even if we never publish anything.

- - -

Yes, I am a character. I do speak my mind. As an Aspie (Autistic person) it very hard not to so. I deliberately don't hide that. If you haven't realized: I respect people who do great things (even if I don't like em personally). Pink I can't listen to but she is a hard worker. EDM I rag on not because I am an EDM hater but because I hate the laziness of most who do it badly without caring to try to do something great - see the advert for the Deadmau5 Masterclass . Many of you are characters too. Some try to minimize it but the ones I like the most are those who don't. Some hide under meanness. I feel for those people's pain but don't see why it should be encouraged as this not a person being authentic rather simply manipulative.

Oh and let me go on record: I LOATHE BEING CALLED "DUDE". I didn't mind back in the "Don't Call Me Dude" days because the only people who really did it were Hard Core guys who looked scary but were generally really respectful of anyone who did things. These days "Dude" seems to be the way a certain type of person uses of pretending to be nice to someone whilst pulling down their pants and dropping a big steamer on their face - that putting in the word "dude" makes them unassailable in some way. N.O. It is passive-aggressive and just plain unmannered and ungentlemanly. No one should have to tolerate that. No one should tolerate seeing it done to another when it is so easy to say "Woah, hold up there guy, this is not the way to go about things...".

Not expecting a Thank You is a little like being pleased when someone doesn't shoot you for your parking spot down at the shops. Sure, it manages a problem but it doesn't solve it. Matter of fact it makes it worse. When people don't get pulled up for their poor manners they do it again, and again. Only next time they go a little further. people who go unthanked, just stop trying to make the world a better place. Then they start to behave badly themselves as that is what gets rewarded.

https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2019/05/0 ... mmunities/

I would love people to go from this conversation and have conversations of their own about this very mindset of Yes over No. Conversations of working Together rather than in a Silo. Conversations of guiding people who have lost their manners back to the path that Builds over Destroys.