Problem with a feedback loop patch using The Echo, AP-12 and Selig Gain

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Stygian Abyss
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Joined: 17 Jun 2019

Post 03 Nov 2019

Hi all, I'm trying to create an effect patch in Reason 10 using an external feedback loop with The Echo, because I want the dry signal to go through the AP-12 phaser, then into the delay, then back into the phaser, and so on; I know there's an insert point in the feedback loop of The Echo, but it doesn't seem to affect the dry signal, so this external feedback loop is needed for what I want. I use several Selig Gain to control volume.

The combi patch in the attached zip file gives me very weird results: the plucky sound I used as a test is almost instantly repeated, which is completely abnormal and unwanted, and then comes the normal delay. And this also happens even if the feedback, delay input and output Selig Gains are at -∞, bypassed or off ! This fast repetition only disappears if I unplug the feedback loop.

I absolutely don't understand what's happening and hope some people here will help me. Thanks in advance.
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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 04 Nov 2019

I don't have the AP-12 however it seams to be working OK at my end without it.. So is that doing something you don't know about?

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selig
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Post 04 Nov 2019

Do you have the dry/wet on The Echo fully wet? If not, this would explain what you're describing. If so, I got nothing…
Selig Audio, LLC

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Stygian Abyss
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Post 04 Nov 2019

Carly and Giles, many thanks for your help. The problem happens in the exact state the combi patch is saved, if I play one note using the Europa synth inside, it is almost instantly repeated, like in a drum fill, and then, 1/2 bar after comes the normal delay sound from The Echo without any fast repeat. If there is lots of feedback, this fast repeat causes a complete sound mess that makes the problem obvious, it may not be that noticeable without it.

Of course, AP-12 and The Echo are both 100% wet, the effects are off on Europa, and the problem remains if AP-12 is bypassed. I vaguely remember having read something about a bug in Spider audio once, so I'm going to rebuild this patch from scratch using Jiggery-Pokery's spiders to see if it works better.

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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 04 Nov 2019

There was this issue with the Audio Spider.. https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/spider- ... ug-reason/

FYI: From loading your patch, I play a note, I hear that note and 1/2 bar later I get one repeat and that is it, tried on both Reason 10 & 11.. Replaced the AP-12 (as I don't have it) with the Stock Phaser, same results as in no issues.

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Loque
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Post 04 Nov 2019

I speculate that there are just several delays close to each other after playing a few notes. And this in a feedback loop can result in, well, more notes and sounds in the feedback loop. And with a high gain feedback loop it becomes a continuous tone, which is often a wanted feedback sound.

Add a limiter at the sound chain end and some fx like modulated filter sweep within the loop, and you get a cool new sound.

Did not had the time to check your patch yet, but to me it sounds you just have a, yea right, a feedback loop sound.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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Stygian Abyss
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Post 28 Dec 2019

Hi Carly and Loque, please accept my apologies for this very late reply.
Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
04 Nov 2019
There was this issue with the Audio Spider.. https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/spider- ... ug-reason/
I have found that my problem is an issue with the Audio Spider, but not the same that the one described on Melodiefabriek. This issue affects the merge inputs.
Loque wrote:
04 Nov 2019
I speculate that there are just several delays close to each other after playing a few notes. And this in a feedback loop can result in, well, more notes and sounds in the feedback loop. And with a high gain feedback loop it becomes a continuous tone, which is often a wanted feedback sound.

Add a limiter at the sound chain end and some fx like modulated filter sweep within the loop, and you get a cool new sound.

Did not had the time to check your patch yet, but to me it sounds you just have a, yea right, a feedback loop sound.
A feedback loop sound would not affect the first, direct sound which is abnormally repeated in my original post example patch that has no feedback. And in fact, the only thing I had to do to solve the problem is to replace the merge part of the Audio Spiders by a Polymodular audio merger. The attached patch works as expected, the original and delayed sound are identical. On my Windows 10 / Reason 10 machine the difference in audio result between the first and this second patch is obvious. Maybe those who have kindly tested my patch and heard nothing weird use an Apple version of Reason that doesn't have this bug ?

Loque, your sound design suggestions are, in fact, almost exactly what I'm doing, and the test patches I have posted here are a cut down version of the original one, which is very close from what you suggest minus the limiter - I'll try it ! :)
I had to remove the modules one by one to try to find the culprit and posted a minimal version exhibiting the malfunction here. Thank you for your help.
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