WHY are you thinking of changing DAW? (if you are)

[electrofux]

If you only use your mouse or can live with the equivalent of Reason remote override system then you dont need a script. But if you want to utilize an advanced Midi Controller like Push, Launpad Pro what have you then you are reliant on a proper VST 3.0 implementation or all you get is a mess. I am talking remote control mainly and not automation.

I use Push2 and Akai Mpk Mini Mk2 with Bitwig and scripting is done on the DAW level, not the plugin level - thus is universal for whatever plugins (or native devices) I need to use. I don't have to have separate scripts form NI, Waves, Arturia, Fabfilter, etc. in the same way I won't need it for Reason Rack VST.

Well, mark my words, if they dont do it right, you will see an unordered useless list of mumbo jumbo parameters on your Push.

[Creativemind]

the reason why now is because they’ve telegraphed that (at least for now) the focus of Reason is on being a VST, not a DAW.

This is really not true though. I tried my best to make that clear in my blog post and with the sequencer updates and devices in Reason 11 but it seems I probably failed.

We'll continue working really hard on Reason as a DAW for people who only use Reason, we have plenty of stuff we want to add. The workflow improvements in Reason 11 do focus on the sequencer and they were some of the top requested features, even here on ReasonTalk. The mixer devices are also highly requested, the half-rack effects complained about and requests for Europa's filters in a standalone module influenced the new effects. All these, I hope, should telegraph we care about the DAW. And we won't stop here.

Nice to hear Mattias!

So Sweeper and Quartet Chorus Ensemble are modelled after Europa or Grains modulation effects in some way? Sweeper looks like a mixture of the envelopes from Europa with the colours of Grain.

Also, will we see some video's on release of the new features and effect devices with Ryan again as we've had with Reason 10 etc?

[Creativemind]

In summary: In the meantime (4 months) I already have finished and published four more tracks. Statistics speak for themselves. Heck, I even finished >5 year old unfinished ideas within days after migrating stems to S1.

So I had to realize, that the more technical and classic DAW approach seems to be better for my creativity. I never uninstalled Reason, and I have no plans to do so. Therefore the Reason Rack Plugin is highly welcomed. BUT: I doubt I will ever touch Reason as a DAW again to create a new track. In this sense I’m lost as a customer.

So I'm interested to see what it was in Studio One that enabled you to finish tracks you couldn't in Reason.

I find Reason really easy to finish tracks, like no other daw. The only other daw's I've finished tracks in are FL Studio and Logic. I just find things frustrating with Reason as I'm going along. Not being able to go back to a specific undo (and things that really shouldn't be an undo get on my nerves sometimes like going in or out of a clip), no sync'ing of windows and browsers and can spend ages searching for where something's muted, clicking in and out of clips and navigating around can be very clunky and unintuitive in Reason sometimes and frustrates, that you can't label and re-order send effects on the Main Mixer for easy identification and effect chains, ruler markers with shortcuts to skip to the chorus etc, mimic'd / cloned clips in the sequencer (always getting frustrated if I change a note/chord or velocity of a snare or something and then have to delete all the clips and re-paste them.) Anyway, I'm beginning to rant again about the features I'd like to see.

Cut a long story short, just interested in what it was about Studio One that enabled you to finish tracks more?

[Catblack]

I use Push2 and Akai Mpk Mini Mk2 with Bitwig and scripting is done on the DAW level, not the plugin level - thus is universal for whatever plugins (or native devices) I need to use. I don't have to have separate scripts form NI, Waves, Arturia, Fabfilter, etc. in the same way I won't need it for Reason Rack VST.

Well, mark my words, if they dont do it right, you will see an unordered useless list of mumbo jumbo parameters on your Push.

We really need to pull this discussion into it's own thread. I've followed what electrofux has made in Remote, and it's been hugely impressive. (I couldn't even begin to describe it.) I personally have used Remote to make a note and scale playing surface for my Launchpad Pro. While neither of our interfaces would work in another DAW, I think our caution about it being a huge mess if left unimplemented is warranted.

Yes, I am overthinking it. I wish the overthinking it had been done by Reason Studios because there are so many superior choices made in the development of Reason. But just throwing Remote aside for the VST is not one of them, I fear. But I'll have to see for myself next month.

[QVprod]

Well, mark my words, if they dont do it right, you will see an unordered useless list of mumbo jumbo parameters on your Push.

We really need to pull this discussion into it's own thread. I've followed what electrofux has made in Remote, and it's been hugely impressive. (I couldn't even begin to describe it.) I personally have used Remote to make a note and scale playing surface for my Launchpad Pro. While neither of our interfaces would work in another DAW, I think our caution about it being a huge mess if left unimplemented is warranted.

Yes, I am overthinking it. I wish the overthinking it had been done by Reason Studios because there are so many superior choices made in the development of Reason. But just throwing Remote aside for the VST is not one of them, I fear. But I'll have to see for myself next month.

I think there's a confusion in terminology. Remote is a protocol specific to Reason as a DAW as far as most know. Every DAW has it's own way of handling midi control, so it's logical for one to say midi control in other DAWs have nothing to do with Remote. If the concern is whether the Reason rack plugin will be able to read and report what we know of as Remotable items/parameters to other DAWs, I imagine it will in some way. Someone was able to create a Komplete Kontrol Mapping for the Europa plugin, so I believe RS knows to include that info. I agree automation would be a bit painful without it. Automating a Kontakt instrument for example is less than ideal.

Editing a remote map for a controller however will not work for other DAWs. Those controllers will have to map to parameters in the way a particular DAW handles it. I think the only way you would get a controller to auto recognize the Reason Rack plugin automatically (ignoring the DAW) is if there was a proprietary controller that was designed to do so; such as with NI Komplete Kontrol or Arturia Keylab. Aside from that, most controllers function very generically unless it's has special programming for use within that DAW like the Nektar Panorama had with Reason, Logic, Cubase, and Reaper before they too started using a plugin wrapper (Nektarine). That kind of customizability we have with Remote in Reason isn't available to users in many DAWs.

Edit: To tie things back in to the thread, with the above in mind, if you want to use something like Push, it's best to choose a DAW that already has compatibility with it.

[gbuck]

I started with Cakewalk in the late 1900's and upgraded almost every time through Pro Audio to Sonar to lifetime updates. Had Logic when it was a Windows environment. I bought Reason 1 and always upgraded except versions 2 and 5 (unless that was Record). When the Cakewalk fiasco was unfolding I took advantage of crossgrade offers and purchased Studio One, Samplitude Pro X3, Traction, Reaper and Mixcraft. And of course the free Sonar replacement Cakewalk Bandlab. I feel Mixcraft has the best workflow and will be perfect with Reason 11. Yes I'm upgrading to Suite!

[exxx]

I started with Cakewalk in the late 1900's and upgraded almost every time through Pro Audio to Sonar to lifetime updates. Had Logic when it was a Windows environment. I bought Reason 1 and always upgraded except versions 2 and 5 (unless that was Record). When the Cakewalk fiasco was unfolding I took advantage of crossgrade offers and purchased Studio One, Samplitude Pro X3, Traction, Reaper and Mixcraft. And of course the free Sonar replacement Cakewalk Bandlab. I feel Mixcraft has the best workflow and will be perfect with Reason 11. Yes I'm upgrading to Suite!

What about mixcraft?

Is it appropriate to use as a substitute for Studio One?

i have a lot of plugins, so I don't think you need to go to the pro version.

I want to hear your opinion.

[gbuck]

I mainly use Reason for manipulating existing old and new midi files and audio backing tracks. Easy to drag and drop midi files where Reason creates the correct tracks and appropriate instruments ready to play. And a built in virtual piano keyboard comes in real handy for a traveling Asus ROG laptop. Mixcraft also does all that and has a few more editing features that I wish Reason would add in an update. I am a semi-pro guitarist and singer as well as a roofing and building contractor on the east coast of Florida waiting for hurricane Dorian to pass by as I play a dorian melody on my acoustic.

[dioxide]

My preference is to keep using Reason standalone, but I'm also going to investigate using Ableton+ReasonVST. I've been waiting for clip launching in Reason for 15+ years and here we are in 2019 and I'm still using Matrix and Redrum and having to write my own Remote maps to control them. If Ableton works for me I can go down the clips + Push route and dump all my workaround methods and still use my library of Reason patches and devices.

[antic604]

I use Push2 and Akai Mpk Mini Mk2 with Bitwig and scripting is done on the DAW level, not the plugin level - thus is universal for whatever plugins (or native devices) I need to use. I don't have to have separate scripts form NI, Waves, Arturia, Fabfilter, etc. in the same way I won't need it for Reason Rack VST.

Well, mark my words, if they dont do it right, you will see an unordered useless list of mumbo jumbo parameters on your Push.

Again, you only speak from your experience where it could've been true, but Bitwig - or Live, for that matter - map to Push the parameters that are exposed to the remote pages of VST wrapper: I simply click one of those "wifi" symbols then click one of the parameters in the list on the right and it's mapped to corresponding encoder on Push. I can switch the pages of 8 parameters with buttons below the Push display, to access more than 8 parameters. It just works for any VST.

[Yonatan]

Inspired by the new Rack plugin, I have downloaded some demo versions of AblLive, Bitwig, St1, Cubase, Reaper. Skipped protools and Fl studio at this time.
Also former Cakewalk now named Bandlab.

I will go through them eventually this fall, although will end up in Logic as a dual pal to Reason. Just curious.

Bandlab...no way that is an option for me at least. Might be too harsh but have not opened it as the Allihoopa kind of commitity collab style of set up made me sea sick. Will look into the app on android. I see it more as an mobile always connected DAW. I will look into it a bit more but no way it will cause me to leave Reason standalone is my first impression. But then I am around 40 so for kids it might resonate better. I just feel "get me out of here"

And opening Ableton Live last evening. I can see it has a lot of functions and techy stuff.
Tried it at a sound course before and know it is very capable. But oh...I felt lost trying to be intuitive with it, sooo messy and cluttered.
But I am sure when spending xx amount of hours on tutorials etc, digging deeper into its unique ways, there is endless possobilities and the Ableton community is huge and creddy and hip and lots of tutorials available.
I can see myself using it for certain creative tasks, but no way I will go Ableton Live as main worktool. The way the transport bar is so tiny...

I am wired too close with Reason to go all over board to another ship, and as long as not leaking in water and sinking, I will be on the Reason cruise. There is lots of bling bling in many daws, some helpful, some just making one stumble in the wilderness.
I find Reason works better on a laptop for me.

I guess St1 and Reaper will be more common workflow than Ablive though. Bitwig seem like a brother to Ablive and I will check it out.

Logic+Reason will be the best combo for me. And if Ablive has something going I hope Reason will match up with their way of implementing a better on the fly live arranging and using the DAW as an instrument.
Players are fun, but dont stay there, make it be another option, but take sequencer and Blocks and sample and loops erc to next level also.

As more of a singer-songwriter producer with some love also for sound design and song experimentation, I think Reason is so much more appealing because of its two worlds combined, Reason + Record. Those two concepts can continue to glue together and it is this combo of ordinary songwriting and recording together with the experimental side that is why I love Reason as main workstation, and as it progress further in that unity, I appretiate that we now in the meantime can use complementary tools in other Daws as Logic or Ablive. But if Reason get things right onwards, it will become a creators dream even more and it will be hard to not have it in any serious studio, home or pro.

[boingy]

Bandlab...no way that is an option for me at least. Might be too harsh but have not opened it as the Allihoopa kind of commitity collab style of set up made me sea sick. Will look into the app on android. I see it more as an mobile always connected DAW. I will look into it a bit more but no way it will cause me to leave Reason standalone is my first impression. But then I am around 40 so for kids it might resonate better. I just feel "get me out of here"

You've already said you'll end up with Logic but the Cakewalk/Bandlab thing is not online only. You do have to create a Bandlab account to download Cakewalk but once it is downloaded and installed it will work fully offline and you don't need to login to Bandlab ever again unless you want to download an update.

[future-bit]

[Yonatan]

Bandlab...no way that is an option for me at least. Might be too harsh but have not opened it as the Allihoopa kind of commitity collab style of set up made me sea sick. Will look into the app on android. I see it more as an mobile always connected DAW. I will look into it a bit more but no way it will cause me to leave Reason standalone is my first impression. But then I am around 40 so for kids it might resonate better. I just feel "get me out of here"

You've already said you'll end up with Logic but the Cakewalk/Bandlab thing is not online only. You do have to create a Bandlab account to download Cakewalk but once it is downloaded and installed it will work fully offline and you don't need to login to Bandlab ever again unless you want to download an update.

I did create an account but so hard to see where to download it to desktop because of a djungle of facebook type of things.
And nothing I heard inspired me.
But I will give it a fair chance when finding the download button, i only did see some Google chrome version. My patience did went out I do admit. Wonder if it supports Mac OsX.

I may come off as a little anti the new stuff, I am not really, I think it is great that so many people now can do music like never before, even without cracked daw. And the collab thing has some great potential, but I find it is not there yet matured. It is a lot of trials and offcourse a lot of errors. I am excited what will develop out of this exploison of options. More people can find their ways of creating.

My 2 cents of looking to other daws is that some of its grass may indeed be greener, but also a lot of it is plastic when coming closer.
Reason lacks in some areas but it is very much quality also.

Bitwig appeals a bit to my love for color so will be interesting to try that out. Ablive is a bit too grey and flat for my taste but will also give it a bit more chances just because I overall think it is enrichening to know what other tools there are and it is good that we also push RS to move onward with new features.

[Yonatan]

Over the past 20 years, I have worked in different DAWs:

Logic 4, Protools II / III (Mac OS 7/8/9)
Logic 5, Sony ACID Pro 2/3/4, Cubase SX / VST / 4, Reaper 2/3/4, Synapse Audio Orion 7/8, Reason 2/3/4/5/7/8/9/10 (Windows 98 / XP / 7)

Now my second DAW is Reaper 5. This is a small DAW that can run from a USB flash drive and work on any computer. I hardly use all its features, I do not know many settings. But what I need, I am able to do it quickly and easily.

I was amazed how little mb download whole Reaper has, it must be extremely efficient coded. And it has no gb of free samples. I like the approach, letting one use own vst instruments and skipping the bling bling.
Reaper reminds me more of a kind of poor mans open source style alternative to ProTools.
For tracking and mixing large projects or live mixing, I can see Reaper might be a good reliable tool. Or exporting audiotracks from a Reason session to mix last thing in Reaper on a laptop. Cool that every DAW almost finds its special nische although its overlappings.

The VST in Reason did open up that world more to me, but it have not made me abandon RE, and I am sure the same will be regarding DAWs.
I will use some of them for different reasons or projects and the Rack plugin makes it easier, but I will continue working in Reason as much, if not even more.

[dezma]

Well, with all that being said I had my first 15 minutes of Presonus Studio one.

Obviously I checked if it could do my number 1 irritations of reason.

1) VST avenger automation is actually working without workaround
2) It loops .WAV loops IN SYNC while playing
3) It can drag n drop wav files into VST
4) I already managed to use avenger's brilliant ARP to send notes to Spire
5) Sequence folders ! (pack folders)
6) Auto save documents

So far it checks all boxes, and even better, it checked them in a very small timeframe. It's a complex program but most things seem to be in a logical place.

Actually typing all this makes me realize again how much really basic functionality is missing. I reported issue number 3) in june 2017 while betatesting 9.5. All they did was creating more devices I don't need. I'd be suprised if any of these functions are missing in another DAW. Then there's all the other smaller stuff you only realize you miss once you got another program such as export straight to MP3. To be continued..

[dezma]

I even tried to explain my thoughts recently.. but I think reasontalk needs a bigger font

[rgdaniel]

Somewhat OT: I would still be using Opcode Studio Vision (up to v37 by now, probably) if Gibson hadn't bought it and dumped it in 1998. Fecking Gibson. I will never buy a Gibson guitar. Largely because I do not play guitar, but still, I could learn. Hashtag #StillHoldingaGrudge . . .

[madmacman]

So I'm interested to see what it was in Studio One that enabled you to finish tracks you couldn't in Reason.

I'll try, but where to start?

First of all: I've never been a huge fan of Reason. I bought it back in 2012 when I couldn't build up my studio hardware and wanted a self-contained system to dabble with it every now and then. As I said: I came from Cubase and later Logic. And I wouldn't say I can't finish tracks in Reason. It's more like "I don't want to"

But now let's get things sorted:

• Features: I won't list everything in detail here, but with Reason 10 I had a list of ~30 feature requests, but nothing fancy. More or less the same that was floating around this forum for ages. In S1 pretty much all wishes were fullfilled - instantly.
• Organizing complexity: Especially in larger projects I love the options for track folders or grouping tracks.
• Workflow: I'm a "sequencer guy". Most of the stuff happens in the sequencer, which is obviously the weakest part of Reason. I have tons of more options for manipulating clips and clip contents. And I prefer dedicated features over manual workarounds. I even have the option to define macros for function sequences that I can repeat at any time.
• The chord track with auto detection of chords for Midi AND (!) Audio (and also instant pitch manipulation for Midi AND Audio via "follow") is amazing for bringing fresh ideas into song sketches.
• As I said before: Most of my composing tasks happen in the sequencer. Therefore I'm not a big fan of players. I bought the Reason 10.1 update because of the Drum Sequencer player but I didn't like it in the long run. S1 has the Drum Sequencer "done right": as a clip type in the sequencer with pretty much identical features.

In short: When I started my first steps with the "Pro" version of S1 (after months playing around with the free Prime version), it felt like Garageband (Reason) compared to Logic (S1). I don't claim that you can't do great music with Reason. I love the tracks made by Adam Fielding, Paul Ortiz (Chimpspanner), and especially the stuff from Carl Grace & Raymond Hayter (Pacific Deep).

But I must realize, Reason wasn't for me. At least not as a primary DAW. But I will keep it on my notebook as a sounddesign tool and sketchpad.

[boingy]

Somewhat OT: I would still be using Opcode Studio Vision (up to v37 by now, probably) if Gibson hadn't bought it and dumped it in 1998. Fecking Gibson. I will never buy a Gibson guitar. Largely because I do not play guitar, but still, I could learn. Hashtag #StillHoldingaGrudge . . .

Hey, would that be the same Gibson who bought Cakewalk and then dumped it? Nice.

[MrFigg]

Somewhat OT: I would still be using Opcode Studio Vision (up to v37 by now, probably) if Gibson hadn't bought it and dumped it in 1998. Fecking Gibson. I will never buy a Gibson guitar. Largely because I do not play guitar, but still, I could learn. Hashtag #StillHoldingaGrudge . . .

Hey, would that be the same Gibson who bought Cakewalk and then dumped it? Nice.

I will never buy another Gibson guitar. But for other reasons.

[sleep1979]

Matthias cant you give us a bit more specifics about how the plugin works? Like will there be Midi Out/Notes to Track, is Remote Present, how is automation handled with the myriad of parameters a Rack can have etc.

No MIDI Out in the first version, but it's definitely being considered. Remote is not present, for VSTs DAWs generally handle hardware and MIDI control. You can automate parameters via the host, it works differently in every host and we're not 100% done with implementation but in Live, for example, you can turn rotaries to "learn" them in Live's interface etc.

Mattias, thank you. I'll take your word for it.
Just two consecutive questions, you've probably read many opinions on R11.
Can you _understand_ why this is for the most part still not an attractive upgrade for Reason-only users and will this be discussed internally?

I understand, the marketing was heavy on the plug in message because it's very important that it reaches outside of our normal channels. I've compared Reason 11's feature set to a lot of older .0 upgrades and I still stand by it being solid and great features. I can't wait for you guys to try Sweeper (coolest effect I've used in years, it can do SO much!), the new track zoom and curved automation for example. I do understand that it's not attractive for all Reason-only users, I've seen both negativity and positivity from that group, but I read all the posts so I understand your reasoning. I still hope you'll really like the upgrade when you try it, but my main point was: we're not abandoning Reason as a DAW.

Yeah thanks man lets hope not because its getting good , would be nice for the multi pencil tool to go in any direction like cubases and be able to right click in the midi editor and have a little toolbox with pencil eraser razor etc that would save so much time that would be so cool

[Dante]

I’m using Harrison MixBus 32C to mix simply because I’m getting way better mix sound out of it than the Reason SSL. So I’m stemming stuff out of Reason. If Reason Racks become accessible inside MB32C there may be less reason to use Reason at all. From what I make out MixBus 32C is a circuit level emulation of a real Harrison mixer hence the nice rounded analog sound. However, and correct me if I’m wrong / the Reason SSL is not a circuit modeled version of a real SSL just a digital functional representation. Now my Reason mixes sound obviously digital after my ears are accustomed to same tracks done in MixBus. That, to me is where MixBus wins over all DAWS I’ve ever used - although that’s only been about 4 including Cubase and Reason.

[Yonatan]

I’m using Harrison MixBus 32C to mix simply because I’m getting way better mix sound out of it than the Reason SSL. So I’m stemming stuff out of Reason. If Reason Racks become accessible inside MB32C there may be less reason to use Reason at all. From what I make out MixBus 32C is a circuit level emulation of a real Harrison mixer hence the nice rounded analog sound. However, and correct me if I’m wrong / the Reason SSL is not a circuit modeled version of a real SSL just a digital functional representation. Now my Reason mixes sound obviously digital after my ears are accustomed to same tracks done in MixBus. That, to me is where MixBus wins over all DAWS I’ve ever used - although that’s only been about 4 including Cubase and Reason.

I tried a demo years ago of Mixbus but found it so lackning in handling midi keyboard etc. But was interested to try the claim of getting better summing through it. I need to try it again. Must figure out if it is a myth or a reality. Have heard audio people claim both.
You mean it is per se a better summing or would it be replicatable if using same saturation plug on all channels in Reason?

[Jagwah]

Well, with all that being said I had my first 15 minutes of Presonus Studio one.

Obviously I checked if it could do my number 1 irritations of reason.

1) VST avenger automation is actually working without workaround
2) It loops .WAV loops IN SYNC while playing
3) It can drag n drop wav files into VST
4) I already managed to use avenger's brilliant ARP to send notes to Spire
5) Sequence folders ! (pack folders)
6) Auto save documents

So far it checks all boxes, and even better, it checked them in a very small timeframe. It's a complex program but most things seem to be in a logical place.

Actually typing all this makes me realize again how much really basic functionality is missing. I reported issue number 3) in june 2017 while betatesting 9.5. All they did was creating more devices I don't need. I'd be suprised if any of these functions are missing in another DAW. Then there's all the other smaller stuff you only realize you miss once you got another program such as export straight to MP3. To be continued..

This is kind of what I expected, they send people away to other DAWs - OK with their REs, but the grass is greener and more advanced so why on earth would they come back?

By the way I totally agree with your sentiment about 'All they did was creating more devices I don't need.' Maximising profit f*cking destroys everything!!!!!!!!!