Vocal Rider Combinator anyone?

Have an urge to learn, or a calling to teach? Want to share some useful Youtube videos? Do it here!
Post Reply
User avatar
BananaSkins
Posts: 474
Joined: 29 Sep 2017

13 Mar 2019

I've just been looking into adding a vocal rider into my vocal templates. (Looking at Waves / Hornet plugins etc)

From what I've researched so far; a plugin like the Waves Vocal Rider will not sidechain into Reason because only the Vst3 version has the sidechain capabilities. (Will Reason ever support. Vst3 ?)

So I was wondering has any one ever created a vocal Rider within Reason; and if so would they like to share their patch / technique etc?

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

14 Mar 2019

Isn't that just a leveler? If yes, you need a compressor to scan the audio material and a gain control which will be triggered by the compressors gain reduction. You can implement a lookahead with a delay unit.

Split your vocal with a spider, one goes into compressor, one into a mixer. Before the mixer you can add a DDL(full wet, no feedback) with 1ms lookahead. Flip the rack, grab the Gain Reduction from the compressor and connect it to Lolth which you connect to the Gain control of the mixer. In Lolth you can now control up or down leveling. The compressor controls the reaction time and ratio.

If it's a compressing or expanding thing, try Seligs Leveler or Lectric Pandas compressor.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
BananaSkins
Posts: 474
Joined: 29 Sep 2017

14 Mar 2019

Thanks for your detailed reply; just read also that 'Blue Cat's PatchWork' can load VST3 so lots to think about and try here...

Cheers :thumbs_up:

User avatar
Magnus
Posts: 139
Joined: 03 Jul 2018

14 Mar 2019

Automation of the volume control, normalising individual audio clips, or Selig Leveler are the best ways to do this within Reason. The latter is also more CPU efficient than a VST too.

User avatar
BananaSkins
Posts: 474
Joined: 29 Sep 2017

16 Mar 2019

Magnus wrote:
14 Mar 2019
Automation of the volume control, normalising individual audio clips, or Selig Leveler are the best ways to do this within Reason. The latter is also more CPU efficient than a VST too.
Thanks for your reply... :thumbs_up:

Robben
Posts: 5
Joined: 15 Jan 2021

15 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
14 Mar 2019
Isn't that just a leveler? If yes, you need a compressor to scan the audio material and a gain control which will be triggered by the compressors gain reduction. You can implement a lookahead with a delay unit.

Split your vocal with a spider, one goes into compressor, one into a mixer. Before the mixer you can add a DDL(full wet, no feedback) with 1ms lookahead. Flip the rack, grab the Gain Reduction from the compressor and connect it to Lolth which you connect to the Gain control of the mixer. In Lolth you can now control up or down leveling. The compressor controls the reaction time and ratio.

If it's a compressing or expanding thing, try Seligs Leveler or Lectric Pandas compressor.
I couldn't get the mixer fader moving with the Mclass compressor cv out -> Lolth -> Mixer 14:2 level cv in (I hear something, but I can't see what it is doing).
I found a youtube link with a similar solution and tried that (I think it's in Chinese):

Inserted a combinator in which I spider-splitted the audio to the compressor and the mixer via the DDL1 delay (1 ms delay, full wet, no feedback).
Flipped the rack: the compressor cv out goes into the programmer of the combinator (cv1 in unipolar) and programmed the mixer: source= cv1 in, target=channel 1 level, min=100, max=0. Now I see the mixer fader moving.

I want to take this a step further and write down the level automation in the sequencer, so I can fine tune the volume (like the write-function in the waves vocal rider plugin)
Tried that with this setup: right click the fader of the 14:2 mixer in the combinator -> "edit automation".
A mixer level track appears in the sequencer. I select this track and hit record ... nothing happens.
I see the fader in 14:2 mixer moving, but no automation gets recorded.

Has anyone ideas how to record the fader automation, so it can be edited in the track level in the sequencer window?

And is it somehow possible to replace the 14:2 rack mixer with the fader in the main channel mixer?

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

15 Jan 2021

Robben wrote:
15 Jan 2021
Loque wrote:
14 Mar 2019
Isn't that just a leveler? If yes, you need a compressor to scan the audio material and a gain control which will be triggered by the compressors gain reduction. You can implement a lookahead with a delay unit.

Split your vocal with a spider, one goes into compressor, one into a mixer. Before the mixer you can add a DDL(full wet, no feedback) with 1ms lookahead. Flip the rack, grab the Gain Reduction from the compressor and connect it to Lolth which you connect to the Gain control of the mixer. In Lolth you can now control up or down leveling. The compressor controls the reaction time and ratio.

If it's a compressing or expanding thing, try Seligs Leveler or Lectric Pandas compressor.
I couldn't get the mixer fader moving with the Mclass compressor cv out -> Lolth -> Mixer 14:2 level cv in (I hear something, but I can't see what it is doing).
I found a youtube link with a similar solution and tried that (I think it's in Chinese):

Inserted a combinator in which I spider-splitted the audio to the compressor and the mixer via the DDL1 delay (1 ms delay, full wet, no feedback).
Flipped the rack: the compressor cv out goes into the programmer of the combinator (cv1 in unipolar) and programmed the mixer: source= cv1 in, target=channel 1 level, min=100, max=0. Now I see the mixer fader moving.

I want to take this a step further and write down the level automation in the sequencer, so I can fine tune the volume (like the write-function in the waves vocal rider plugin)
Tried that with this setup: right click the fader of the 14:2 mixer in the combinator -> "edit automation".
A mixer level track appears in the sequencer. I select this track and hit record ... nothing happens.
I see the fader in 14:2 mixer moving, but no automation gets recorded.

Has anyone ideas how to record the fader automation, so it can be edited in the track level in the sequencer window?

And is it somehow possible to replace the 14:2 rack mixer with the fader in the main channel mixer?
If you use CV, the controls on the front wont move - thats basically a big advantage of CV over automation. If you want the controls on the front to move, you need to route it through a Combinator (CV->Combinator->Programmer->Device Control).

If you want to visualize the CV signal, i can recommend this:
https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... -analyzer/

Automation, as said, is something different than CV and acts indipendent.

If you want to record a CV, like Compressor Gain Reduction CV Out for further processing in automation, you can recrd it via MIDI loop back. Check this out:
viewtopic.php?t=7504034
Reason12, Win10

Robben
Posts: 5
Joined: 15 Jan 2021

15 Jan 2021

I checked the post about the midi loopback, I also checked a few other video's about that today. I have the midi loop back installed and I checked out what I can do with it.
To me it looks like you can control other midi instruments with it and then also record the automation in these instruments.

For the vocal rider on the other hand, I need to control the level fader of an audio track and then record that automation.
I can't find any examples about that with the midi loop back.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

15 Jan 2021

Robben wrote:
15 Jan 2021
I checked the post about the midi loopback, I also checked a few other video's about that today. I have the midi loop back installed and I checked out what I can do with it.
To me it looks like you can control other midi instruments with it and then also record the automation in these instruments.

For the vocal rider on the other hand, I need to control the level fader of an audio track and then record that automation.
I can't find any examples about that with the midi loop back.
The trick in the end is, that you send the CV to a MIDI control like the Mod Wheel. It will than record the Mod Wheel changes created by CV. This MIDI clip can than be moved to any created automation lane, but it often must be adjusted via pop up menu, something like "Adjust alien clips".

So in your case, record the CV via sending it "loop backed" to a Mod Wheel and record it, than create a automation lane for your mixer fader and move the clip to this lane. Adjust the alien clip and you are done.

Its a bit weird, but currently the only way. I really whish RS would make such things a bit easier, but tbh, its a dirty hack.

Here is a example, where i connected Pulsar to the MIDI MW on the back. Maybe with some remote overriding you can automate the fader of the mixer directly. HF with experimenting :-P
loopmidirecord.jpg
loopmidirecord.jpg (339.52 KiB) Viewed 1248 times
Reason12, Win10

Robben
Posts: 5
Joined: 15 Jan 2021

16 Jan 2021

Thanks for the tip, it looks that we're almost getting there. Below is my setup, I tested it with a added midi device, but I can achieve the same results with the combinator itself.
2021-01-16 setup DIY vocal rider.jpg
2021-01-16 setup DIY vocal rider.jpg (619.38 KiB) Viewed 1218 times
Only the last step "adjust alien clips I can't to work", it gives an error, see attached images. I guessed that's because it's an audio track. The mod wheel has a range from 0 to 127, the audio level has a range of 0 to 1000. So I created a line for the 14:2 mixer and tried to copy the automation to that, but this gives the same errror.
2021-01-16 adjust alien clips to lane.jpg
2021-01-16 adjust alien clips to lane.jpg (102.72 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

16 Jan 2021

Not sure about the error, but i would use a additional gain device instead of the master fader of SSL. You can try it...
Reason12, Win10

Robben
Posts: 5
Joined: 15 Jan 2021

17 Jan 2021

Thanks, I fiddled around some more, adjusted the setup and indeed it works. With the midi loopback I can control a lot of things with rightclick "edit remote override mapping", even the mix channel fader. Then I can record fader- or knob action in a automation lane in the sequencer.
2021-01-17 setup DIY vocal rider.jpg
2021-01-17 setup DIY vocal rider.jpg (714.44 KiB) Viewed 1182 times
When I automate the mix channel fader, then later on my only option is to bounce down the mixer channel with "apply mixer settings -> all" (to include the fader action) This results in a stereo track for my vocal track and I don't want that (the vocal rider is just for creating a cleaned up copy of the vocal track for further processing (EQ/dynamics).

So I did two tests: one with the 6:2 mixer plugin, one with a gain plugin as you suggested. I set the compressor ratio to 4:1, threshold 20dB and the attack to 1ms in conjunction with the DDL delay (zero attack compression, the 1 ms delay on the vocal track should'nt be noticable). Then I start testing with a vocal track.

When using the 6:2 mixer level automation I programmed the midi out device mod wheel with min 100 max 0, the min setting 100 is as close I can get to the standard 0dB level of the mixer fader. When using the gain plugin, the settings for the mod wheel are min 63 max 0. In the Reason preferences/General I set the "Automation cleanup level -> Heavy" to ease out the level adjustments. In the below image you can see the test results.
On the first look and listen I would say the gain automation works the best in this case, less agressive level changes and it results in a more steady waveform. On the other hand, I don't have a good understanding the differences between the two. The gain plugin has a range of -30dB to 30dB, in the vocal ride I use the -30dB to 0dB range (mod wheel midi value 0 to 60). The mixer has a range of 0 to 127 and I use the 0 to 100 midi range. Maybe with other compressor settings you can get the same result with the mixer plugin as with the gain plugin.

All things been said, I think I'm quite satisfied with the results.
2021-01-16 compare mixer and gain automation.jpg
2021-01-16 compare mixer and gain automation.jpg (171.93 KiB) Viewed 1182 times

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

17 Jan 2021

In the end it looks like you just built a very complex compressor! Where do you see the advantages to using this approach?
Selig Audio, LLC

Robben
Posts: 5
Joined: 15 Jan 2021

17 Jan 2021

I got the idea from a video from Musician on a Mission about mixing vocals. He suggests a workflow of first doing volume automation, as a way to prep your vocal track so that the compressor can do a better job later on. You can do this completely by hand, or you can use a plugin like Waves Vocal Rider. In the last case, the vocal rider takes the bulk of the work, then can you fine tune it by hand in the automation lane. After that you bounce down the track and use that in your mix.

I don't know if this DIY plugin is close to the performance of Waves Vocal Rider, but I like what I see thus far. In stead of doing this, you can also just throw in a compressor/limiter indeed, but then you can't do the fine tuning thing. I dropped the 6:2 mixer out of the setup, I'll stick with the gain plugin for the time being.

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests