Guess the beta release date for Reason 10.3 ...

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chaosroyale
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Post 25 Feb 2019

I used to buy REs in preference to VST because I naturally assumed the performance would be better but after comparing directly I often find myself swapping out REs for VSTs because -surprisingly- the VSTs use less CPU.

I don't know anything about how REs are developed, so I don't know if the RE performance relates in any way to the VST performance, or how much wiggle room there is for props. If there is a lot of original code done by RE developers then obviously that aspect would be out of props hands. Anyway it looks like a lot of REs are not optimised.

About this thread generally: As for release dates, what is the point of guessing? Props will release it when it is done. There is nothing to be gained by guessing dates in the absence of official announcements.
guitfnky wrote:
25 Feb 2019
do people really complain about the performance of REs? I use countless REs in almost every project without running into performance issues. I know I’m not alone.

I mean it would be amazing if they could improve RE performance even more, but honestly, they’re incredibly efficient already.

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guitfnky
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Post 25 Feb 2019

chaosroyale wrote:
25 Feb 2019
I used to buy REs in preference to VST because I naturally assumed the performance would be better but after comparing directly I often find myself swapping out REs for VSTs because -surprisingly- the VSTs use less CPU.

I don't know anything about how REs are developed, so I don't know if the RE performance relates in any way to the VST performance, or how much wiggle room there is for props. If there is a lot of original code done by RE developers then obviously that aspect would be out of props hands. Anyway it looks like a lot of REs are not optimised.

About this thread generally: As for release dates, what is the point of guessing? Props will release it when it is done. There is nothing to be gained by guessing dates in the absence of official announcements.
guitfnky wrote:
25 Feb 2019
do people really complain about the performance of REs? I use countless REs in almost every project without running into performance issues. I know I’m not alone.

I mean it would be amazing if they could improve RE performance even more, but honestly, they’re incredibly efficient already.
the RE vs. VST performance thing also might depend on your buffer settings. I think REs run at a fixed 64 sample buffer rate, even if you raise your buffer to, say, 1024 samples. so if you’re running at higher buffer settings it can look like VSTs are performing better (and they probably are, at those buffer settings) vs Rack Extensions. if that’s the case, you’d need to test everything at a buffer of 64 samples to really find out which performs better. all that said, I only skimmed that info, so I could be wildly off about that.

and I totally agree that good optimization probably really comes down to the developer.

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Creativemind
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Post 25 Feb 2019

Heigen5 wrote:
03 Feb 2019
26th February.
Well later on today is the day.

What will happen, hmmm?
:reason:

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miscend
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Post 25 Feb 2019

guitfnky wrote:
25 Feb 2019
chaosroyale wrote:
25 Feb 2019
I used to buy REs in preference to VST because I naturally assumed the performance would be better but after comparing directly I often find myself swapping out REs for VSTs because -surprisingly- the VSTs use less CPU.

I don't know anything about how REs are developed, so I don't know if the RE performance relates in any way to the VST performance, or how much wiggle room there is for props. If there is a lot of original code done by RE developers then obviously that aspect would be out of props hands. Anyway it looks like a lot of REs are not optimised.

About this thread generally: As for release dates, what is the point of guessing? Props will release it when it is done. There is nothing to be gained by guessing dates in the absence of official announcements.

the RE vs. VST performance thing also might depend on your buffer settings. I think REs run at a fixed 64 sample buffer rate, even if you raise your buffer to, say, 1024 samples. so if you’re running at higher buffer settings it can look like VSTs are performing better (and they probably are, at those buffer settings) vs Rack Extensions. if that’s the case, you’d need to test everything at a buffer of 64 samples to really find out which performs better. all that said, I only skimmed that info, so I could be wildly off about that.

and I totally agree that good optimization probably really comes down to the developer.
VSTs also run at fixed buffer.

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hurricane
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Post 25 Feb 2019

Can you imagine the shit storm if this is a half-assed optimization?

So you folks with jobs at real companies, would you say this delay means:

A. we're just taking our time and getting things right

or

B. fuck, this is harder than we thought and we're having lots of issues and we can't release it yet.

I've worked in IT, so in my experience the answer is the big fat B. :!:
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neilprivate
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Post 26 Feb 2019

I’m sure their intentions are to release something worth the wait. As for how long that takes... could be a massive struggle. IMHO, in giving in to the huge demand for VST integration they created a nightmare. So many things are now out of their hands. I wouldn’t want to be on the dev team, but at least their management haven’t thrown them under a bus with a pointless date. This is the first time I’ve regretted giving up the hardware, maybe it will never work as intended again.

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MattiasHG
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Post 26 Feb 2019

hurricane wrote:
25 Feb 2019
A. we're just taking our time and getting things right

or

B. fuck, this is harder than we thought and we're having lots of issues and we can't release it yet.

I've worked in IT, so in my experience the answer is the big fat B. :!:
It's option A. :geek: As the CDM-article hinted at/explained, it was required to re-write big parts of Reason in an effort to behave as VSTs expected buffer sizes to behave. From obvious parts like the VST integration itself to less obvious things like the count-in or send fx. This means there's a lot of areas to test, so we're taking our time to make sure it works well. Of course we also want to involve VST developers in this testing.

neilprivate wrote:
26 Feb 2019
I’m sure their intentions are to release something worth the wait. As for how long that takes... could be a massive struggle. IMHO, in giving in to the huge demand for VST integration they created a nightmare. So many things are now out of their hands. I wouldn’t want to be on the dev team, but at least their management haven’t thrown them under a bus with a pointless date. This is the first time I’ve regretted giving up the hardware, maybe it will never work as intended again.
Yeah, regarding a date I think this is key: saying a date before we know that date will hold for sure is unfair to both developers and you—which I learned the hard way with the previous announcement. But don't worry, we're making great progress!

I wouldn't call the integration a nightmare at all, but it's definitely a different set of demands for the application as different plug-ins can behave quite differently. As for "working as intended", I'm not quite sure what you mean but our goal in general is of course that Reason should work really, really well. Allowing VSTs to use bigger buffer sizes and thus run as intended is one thing, but it's not like we'll stop working on Reason after that. :)

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Loque
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Post 26 Feb 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019
It's option A.
:thumbs_up:

MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019
Yeah, regarding a date I think this is key: saying a date before we know that date will hold for sure is unfair to both developers and you—which I learned the hard way with the previous announcement. But don't worry, we're making great progress!
:thumbs_up:


Thanks for the update. Keep up the great work. You are doing all a gj at PH!
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

Ad0
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Post 26 Feb 2019

RandyEspoda wrote:
23 Feb 2019
Of course it's pretty obvious they underestimated the process and likely indeed it would be nested
much deeper and more intricately than expected, requiring a lot more changes throughout the code,
but it still wouldn't be a full 'rewrite', which is literally starting from scratch. I guarantee you 1000% they are not doing that.

Thing is that the amount of changes needed in the 'existing' code is what is taking so much time.
It's a time-consuming process to sift through millions of lines of code to make alterations where needed.
Yeah well, I don't mean a full rewrite of the entire code and interfacing with the audio interfaces. But the audio engine section of all the code is likely to have a rewrite. If you change like > 70% I consider that a rewrite.

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reddust
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Post 26 Feb 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019

It's option A. :geek: As the CDM-article hinted at/explained, it was required to re-write big parts of Reason in an effort to behave as VSTs expected buffer sizes to behave. From obvious parts like the VST integration itself to less obvious things like the count-in or send fx. This means there's a lot of areas to test, so we're taking our time to make sure it works well. Of course we also want to involve VST developers in this testing.

Yeah, regarding a date I think this is key: saying a date before we know that date will hold for sure is unfair to both developers and you—which I learned the hard way with the previous announcement. But don't worry, we're making great progress!

I wouldn't call the integration a nightmare at all, but it's definitely a different set of demands for the application as different plug-ins can behave quite differently. As for "working as intended", I'm not quite sure what you mean but our goal in general is of course that Reason should work really, really well. Allowing VSTs to use bigger buffer sizes and thus run as intended is one thing, but it's not like we'll stop working on Reason after that. :)
Nice to hear that, Mattias, as a developer myself I know it is not always easy to give a deadline to a project because our profession bases on an abstract background when solving problems, so every time unexpected issues can appear. But it's nice to hear you're doing your best to get this working, I love Reason and I do use a lot of VSTs myself so having Reason working smoothly with VST plugins would be a dream.

Before buying Reason I also have used other DAWs and honestly, they might be very good too but as a musician I really prefer an inspiring Daw like Reason over the boring user interfaces from other DAWs. I jut love working with rack instruments, making music like I'm playing with Lego :)

Hejdå

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sonicbyte
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Post 26 Feb 2019

It's option A
Great !! Thanks to let us know from time to time how things are going. :thumbs_up:

botnotbot
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Joined: 26 Oct 2017

Post 26 Feb 2019

I unfortunately concede my speculation about adjustable RE buffers, as Mattias worded his response in a way that seems pretty clear that they are sticking to dealing with VSTs.

To be fair, RE performance in terms of max RE in a project will probably get a plenty big boost whenever they get the graphics off of the CPU.

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dusan.cani
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Post 26 Feb 2019

Hi Mattias,

Some VST plugins have problems in Reason, for example Toneboosters plugins have laggy UI and there are sound dropouts when you tweak the knobs. Same for Mau Synth VSTi - the sound is cut after the relase of mouse button while tweaking some knob. These problems do not happen in other DAWs.

That update on VST performance you are working on - does it mean that the above problems should be fixed ?

Thanks.

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MattiasHG
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Post 26 Feb 2019

dusan.cani wrote:
26 Feb 2019
Hi Mattias,

Some VST plugins have problems in Reason, for example Toneboosters plugins have laggy UI and there are sound dropouts when you tweak the knobs. Same for Mau Synth VSTi - the sound is cut after the relase of mouse button while tweaking some knob. These problems do not happen in other DAWs.

That update on VST performance you are working on - does it mean that the above problems should be fixed ?

Thanks.
I can't answer that until we do further testing, but we'll of course aim to test publicly with many users so we get a wide coverage of plugins. Thanks for the heads-up though!

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diminished
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Post 26 Feb 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019

It's option A. :geek:
Thanks for the update, Mattias! :thumbs_up:

makke
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Post 26 Feb 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019
dusan.cani wrote:
26 Feb 2019
Hi Mattias,

Some VST plugins have problems in Reason, for example Toneboosters plugins have laggy UI and there are sound dropouts when you tweak the knobs. Same for Mau Synth VSTi - the sound is cut after the relase of mouse button while tweaking some knob. These problems do not happen in other DAWs.

That update on VST performance you are working on - does it mean that the above problems should be fixed ?

Thanks.
I can't answer that until we do further testing, but we'll of course aim to test publicly with many users so we get a wide coverage of plugins. Thanks for the heads-up though!
Many UI:s are laggy, especially the analyzers in Reason. Someone said it is because Reason gui is CPU accelerated and run in 30fps or something. Live just got 60fps gui update and everything is so smooth. :P

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hurricane
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Post 26 Feb 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019
...but it's not like we'll stop working on Reason after that. :)
So, Reason 11. When?

I think 491 days passed between R9 and R10. It's been 489 days since R10 was released. Is the VST optimization delaying R11? Thought Verdane was supposed to speed things up? :puf_bigsmile:
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RandyEspoda
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Post 26 Feb 2019

Ad0 wrote:
26 Feb 2019
RandyEspoda wrote:
23 Feb 2019
Of course it's pretty obvious they underestimated the process and likely indeed it would be nested
much deeper and more intricately than expected, requiring a lot more changes throughout the code,
but it still wouldn't be a full 'rewrite', which is literally starting from scratch. I guarantee you 1000% they are not doing that.

Thing is that the amount of changes needed in the 'existing' code is what is taking so much time.
It's a time-consuming process to sift through millions of lines of code to make alterations where needed.
Yeah well, I don't mean a full rewrite of the entire code and interfacing with the audio interfaces. But the audio engine section of all the code is likely to have a rewrite. If you change like > 70% I consider that a rewrite.
Mattias just said it, so it is a big chunk of the code apparently :
MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019

It's option A. :geek: As the CDM-article hinted at/explained, it was required to re-write big parts of Reason in an effort to behave as VSTs expected buffer sizes to behave.

Don't know if it's 70% but it's a big chunk nonetheless.

I believe they're unlocking vst-buffering while keeping it locked for RE,
since REs function extremely efficient with the locked buffer of 64, they don't want to change that...

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esselfortium
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Post 26 Feb 2019

hurricane wrote:
26 Feb 2019
MattiasHG wrote:
26 Feb 2019
...but it's not like we'll stop working on Reason after that. :)
So, Reason 11. When?

I think 491 days passed between R9 and R10. It's been 489 days since R10 was released. Is the VST optimization delaying R11? Thought Verdane was supposed to speed things up? :puf_bigsmile:
I'd say things have been sped up pretty substantially in recent years, and even moreso if compared to the old days. :puf_smile: Reason 3 came out in 2004, Reason 4 came out in 2007, and Reason 5 came out in 2010, things feel much more consistent and incremental now with more frequent updates plus plugin releases.

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Luxuria
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Post 26 Feb 2019

I had to do some googling to find that article. Funny that when you search for CDM you get cyber defense magazine.

Here's a http://cdm.link/2018/12/reason-10-3-vst/ to the article for everyone.

"When it ships, Reason 10.3 will give you performance on par with other DAWs. That is, your performance will depend on your CPU and which plug-ins you’re using, but Reason will be more or less the same as other hosts beyond that."

So 10.3 is just for VST improvement.

I wish; since they are going through the core system's code they could optimize the rack to utilize GPU and upscale everything to HD, but one thing at a time I guess.

-edited: Ophf. Forgot the link was in the blog post made by Phead's. Disregard the first statement. I'll leave the link for ease of access.

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hurricane
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Post 26 Feb 2019

This update is going to be great for those of us who primarily use VST plugins.

So this is going to mean, for example, that in 10.3, The Legend VST will perform better than The Legend RE.

I don't see how that wouldn't be the case, but please correct me if I'm wrong. :thumbs_up:
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Creativemind
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Post 26 Feb 2019

So it will be a public beta. That should last at least a week or so, so don't expect the 10.3 official release before at least mid March.
:reason:

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joeyluck
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Post 26 Feb 2019

hurricane wrote:
26 Feb 2019
This update is going to be great for those of us who primarily use VST plugins.

So this is going to mean, for example, that in 10.3, The Legend VST will perform better than The Legend RE.

I don't see how that wouldn't be the case, but please correct me if I'm wrong. :thumbs_up:
Does it not already?

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hurricane
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Post 26 Feb 2019

joeyluck wrote:
26 Feb 2019
Does it not already?
I don't know - never really paid attention to it. So I guess it'll perform even better vs the RE in 10.3.
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EnochLight
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Post 26 Feb 2019

hurricane wrote:
26 Feb 2019
joeyluck wrote:
26 Feb 2019
Does it not already?
I don't know - never really paid attention to it. So I guess it'll perform even better vs the RE in 10.3.
Not necessarily. According to the CDM article, some VST will perform about the same:
We worked with three plug-ins by way of example – charts are here. With Izotope Ozone 7, there’s a massive gain in the new build. That makes sense – a mastering plug-in isn’t so concerned about low latency performance. With Xfer Records Serum, there’s almost none. Native Instruments’ Massive is somewhere in between. These are just typical examples – many other plug-ins will also fall along this range.
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