Some of the Red Rock Sound FX plugins are flawed at current state.

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seqoi
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Post 13 Feb 2019

Well as i reported here (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7510934&p=431606#p431606) RRsound plugins piqued my interest especially when it comes to oversampling. I actually liked their API release so i put some focus on these plugins.

I was actually shocked that when i enabled supposed oversampling in EQ560 it didn't yielded any delay reported to Reason. As you may know oversampling without delay caused in signal path is impossible.

So i spent some time with testing RR plugins and came to conclusion that these are flawed. You can validate this easily by yourself. Under flawed i mean exactly that. Flawed. These plugins i will list (i tested these) are introducing 2 samples of delay in signal path and they do not report this to Reason. If you don't understand implication of this (all sort of phase issues, especially in parallel processing let alone cumulative effect of stacking RR rack extensions across your mix ) don't bother with this thread.

If you do then you can contribute to this thread and developer will possibly see it. I am not expecting him to hang on forum places but i am finding it weird he is not at least occasionally reading other people opinions on his new releases. Some input wouldn't harm him.

If you want to see good coding example of plugin reporting delay to Reason fire up Mclass Maximizer and turn on 4ms Look Ahead. You'll see immediately that depending on your Freq rate - Reason "sense" delay produced by Maximizer caused by look ahead. In this case it's look ahead, not oversampling but i picked MClass MAximizer because everyone has it. Once when delay is reported to Reason every other channel can be compensated for. Look again when you enable 4ms look ahead look below in Reason transport bar. It's far on the right.

These are my findings.

C1-L1 - introducing 2 samples of delay - not being reported
C1-Sigma - introducing 2 samples of delay - not being reported
C1-Alpha - introducing 2 samples of delay - not being reported
American Equalizer 5600 - not causing any delay but OVRSMPL switch is a gimmick! There is no actual oversampling. I am finding it hard to believe this is oversight. I still need to investigate (i have other work to do) but from my result this switch does nothing. Why would someone add it to the front panel is beyond me.,

Other plugins of RR i did not tried yet since i don't have them and like i said i am short with time.

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Loque
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Post 13 Feb 2019

Hum.... Did not looked in that detail, but there are a lot of RE that do not report or report wrong PDC. Some devs do excellent work here, some do not. I wish PH had forced them all to report correct values right from the beginning.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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aeox
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Post 13 Feb 2019

2 samples is an incredibly small amount of delay. How does this cause phase issues?

From my tests I'm having no phase problems when parallel processing. What kind of test are you doing where you're getting phasing?

As for oversampling.. I don't know what it's doing but it is doing something to the sound.

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rcbuse
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Post 13 Feb 2019

1 sample delay in parallel with the original signal would be a low pass filter, 2 samples would create a weird notch filter.

Could be the developer just missed it, or these devices came out before PDC was released?? In any case, I just wanted to point out you can manually adjust it on the rear of any mix channel.
Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 1.34.30 PM.png
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aeox
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Post 13 Feb 2019

rcbuse wrote:
13 Feb 2019
1 sample delay in parallel with the original signal would be a low pass filter, 2 samples would create a weird notch filter.

Could be the developer just missed it, or these devices came out before PDC was released?? In any case, I just wanted to point out you can manually adjust it on the rear of any mix channel.

Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 1.34.30 PM.png
How? No such thing happens for me

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rcbuse
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Post 13 Feb 2019

aeox wrote:
13 Feb 2019
How? No such thing happens for me
If you have a device that is introducing delays and you run them on a parallel channel your going to create phase issues.

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aeox
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Post 13 Feb 2019

rcbuse wrote:
13 Feb 2019
aeox wrote:
13 Feb 2019
How? No such thing happens for me
If you have a device that is introducing delays and you run them on a parallel channel your going to create phase issues.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong here or thinking of something else. So it does something but I can't actually hear it. I can only see it on the scope, and only when I pan each left and right.
Last edited by aeox on 13 Feb 2019, edited 1 time in total.

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aeox
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Post 13 Feb 2019

I'm not sure if a stereo scope is the correct tool to test with here.. so that's my mistake. But I really can't hear any phasing when I use the RE's in parallel.

Though when I set a 2 sample delay with VMG-01, I hear the phasing you are referring to. Does this mean the RE don't actually have a 2 sample delay?

edit: DOH! I missed the part where the OP says that the EQ's don't have delay. So I see this being an issue with the compressor, which I don't own or have the ability to test. So yea, just like Rbuse says, you can set 2 samples of delay in the back of the mix channel and solve your problem.

Sorry for any confusion here guys.. I'm not too bright :D

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rcbuse
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Post 13 Feb 2019

There was also this handy utility from Normen that lets you directly measure the latency of any device.
https://www.propellerheads.com/shop/rac ... ple-delay/

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aeox
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Post 13 Feb 2019

rcbuse wrote:
13 Feb 2019
There was also this handy utility from Normen that lets you directly measure the latency of any device.
https://www.propellerheads.com/shop/rac ... ple-delay/
I mentioned that in my above post. I should have done that first! :puf_smile:

I was locked in with the idea that the EQ's had a 2 sample delay, given that I misread the original post. So I was just confusing myself.

seqoi
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Post 14 Feb 2019

rcbuse wrote:
13 Feb 2019
1 sample delay in parallel with the original signal would be a low pass filter, 2 samples would create a weird notch filter.

Could be the developer just missed it, or these devices came out before PDC was released?? In any case, I just wanted to point out you can manually adjust it on the rear of any mix channel.

Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 1.34.30 PM.png
I know that but thanks. That's how i verified exact amount of delay in the first place (that and few other devices). That won't work me. Because in a session i am working on i don't want to load flawed plugins and keep having alert in my mind that i need to recalculate or adjust things manually - just because developer missed it. He even missed to actually incorporate oversampling in his EQ but he made oversampling switches.
aeox wrote:
13 Feb 2019
2 samples is an incredibly small amount of delay. How does this cause phase issues?
You can think what you want that's fine however your opinion is opinion not a fact, same fact that even 1 sample of delay will cause phase issues. Then imagine stacking of devices. More devices more delays. Don't tell me you are using just one plugin in a session. There is cumulative delay in that case as well. I am not here to explain how is this happening it's happening and i am trying to point it out for other people in to consideration.

This is especially important concern for people which are using hardware hybrid setups. I am not just in computer.

Another developer tried to explain this to you. There are plenty of articles on wikipedia on DSP. There are even products which are trying to solve such problems (https://www.waves.com/plugins/inphase#image) As i said (and i am not trying to be disrespectful i value your opinion) this thread is not for the people which can not hear it or don't know what it is. It may be you even don't need it let alone hear it. For example if you don't use his plugins there is no problem for you. Or if you use his plugins you can add one of each on every channel and all your channels will be in sync then. However i personally can not afford to work on a session and keep wondering if i stack few plugins that some of my tracks are going to be in sync or not.

And to add to your reply even some EQ's have delay. That's not uncommon these days. Those which are oversampled. Example IK models, UAD models and so on. But all of these (i have them) report their latency to Reason just fine.

I personally i am affected with such coding. 20 years ago i was loud in ImageLine forums and i raised concern to their developer to implement PDC. They did it then. But i moved to Reason few years ago. Now even Reason added PDC and is working great actually (it can be improved).

But some RE developers aren't respecting basics of audio processing in their own products.

Add to that OVRSMPL functions which is a gimmick. At this point I am even suspecting quality of RR oversampling implementation. In compressors he definitely oversample i verified that but he does not report latency. In his EQ there is no oversampling and no latency but switches are there on front panel. Like what the heck?

Now i am thinking that Propellerheads need clearer and more strict rules and tests to check 3rd party RE's before they are being published.
Last edited by seqoi on 14 Feb 2019, edited 2 times in total.

S1GNL
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Post 14 Feb 2019

The mixer channel causes itself a delay, so don’t bother about 2 samples.

A. How did you measure it?

B. Filters, modulators and reverb FX are not precisely measurable.

If you want a "true PDC" DAW then switch to another. Reason is very flawed in that context.

seqoi
Posts: 305
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Post 14 Feb 2019

S1GNL wrote:
14 Feb 2019
The mixer channel causes itself a delay, so don’t bother about 2 samples.

A. How did you measure it?

B. Filters, modulators and reverb FX are not precisely measurable.

If you want a "true PDC" DAW then switch to another. Reason is very flawed in that context.
Oh no...please don't do it do not derail thread. I will repeat and make it more clear:

- I do know what oversampling is
- I do know what is a delay introduced in a path (i work 25 years in audio)
- I NEVER said or bring modulators or reverbs in this thread (and i disagree with you on filter part but i even never mentioned Filter in this thread)
- "The mixer channel causes itself a delay, so don’t bother about 2 samples" i don't even want to know what you wanted to say about this one

Please let's make it clear i am talking about three plugins and do not want to go elsewhere. Don't tell me what should i be bothered with that is rude because you do not know my workflow.

If you think my findings are wrong please correct me and tell me what i did wrong. Something as "don't bother" isn't working for me. Some non related ideas not working either.

A: there are many many ways to measure latency. You even have RE plugin which can do that for you however i measured it manually with Reason own tools.

Please i beg you to not derail this. I am perfectly aware some users tend to drift away to something out of context but i was clear in my own original post what i am talking about. It's valentine day and i am sending you a hug.

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aeox
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Post 14 Feb 2019

seqoi wrote:
14 Feb 2019
rcbuse wrote:
13 Feb 2019
1 sample delay in parallel with the original signal would be a low pass filter, 2 samples would create a weird notch filter.

Could be the developer just missed it, or these devices came out before PDC was released?? In any case, I just wanted to point out you can manually adjust it on the rear of any mix channel.

Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 1.34.30 PM.png
I know that but thanks. That's how i verified exact amount of delay in the first place (that and few other devices).
aeox wrote:
13 Feb 2019
2 samples is an incredibly small amount of delay. How does this cause phase issues?
You can think what you want that's fine however your opinion is opinion not a fact, same fact that even 1 sample of delay will cause phase issues. Then imagine stacking of devices. More devices more delays. Don't tell me you are using just one plugin in a session. There is cumulative delay in that case as well. I am not here to explain how is this happening it's happening and i am trying to point it out for other people in to consideration.

This is especially important concern for people which are using hardware hybrid setups. I am not just in computer.

Another developer tried to explain this to you. There are plenty of articles on wikipedia on DSP. There are even products which are trying to solve such problems (https://www.waves.com/plugins/inphase#image) As i said (and i am not trying to be disrespectful i value your opinion) this thread is not for the people which can not hear it or don't know what it is. It may be you even don't need it let alone hear it. For example if you don't use his plugins there is no problem for you. Or if you use his plugins you can add one of each on every channel and all your channels will be in sync then. However i personally can not afford to work on a session and keep wondering if i stack few plugins that some of my tracks are going to be in sync or not.

And to add to your reply even some EQ's have delay. That's not uncommon these days. Those which are oversampled. Example IK models, UAD models and so on. But all of these (i have them) report their latency to Reason just fine.

I personally i am affected with such coding. 20 years ago i was loud in ImageLine forums and i raised concern to their developer to implement PDC. They did it then. But i moved to Reason few years ago. Now even Reason added PDC and is working great actually (it can be improved).

But some RE developers aren't respecting basics of audio processing in their own products.

Add to that OVRSMPL functions which is a gimmick. At this point I am even suspecting quality of RR oversampling implementation. In compressors he definitely oversample i verified that but he does not report latency. In his EQ there is no oversampling and no latency but switches are there on front panel. Like what the heck?

Now i am thinking that Propellerheads need clearer and more strict rules and tests to check 3rd party RE's before they are being published.
Man, just read my other posts. I had confused myself and admitted that. Given that I misread your first post, I thought the EQ had 2 samples of delay. Since I thought that, I was testing and couldn't hear any phasing issues so I made the false assumption that 2 samples of delay was harmless.

It's not my opinion that 2 samples of delay isn't going to affect parallel processing after testing and hearing it for myself.

seqoi
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Post 14 Feb 2019

aeox wrote:
14 Feb 2019


It's not my opinion that 2 samples of delay isn't going to affect parallel processing after testing and hearing it for myself.
Ok. As you can see for yourself my english is bad i mean i have a hard time to explain what i think in easy way. If you feel i am flaming you i truly apologize that was not my intention. I value your opinion. Sorry again.

And i apologize in advance to other people. Keep in mind when reading my post and if you think i am sounding rude - it's not that. To tell you honestly genuinely honestly in this thread i only ever wanted to send poison arrows to developer himself. I think i used poison sentence in good context (this time)

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aeox
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Post 14 Feb 2019

seqoi wrote:
14 Feb 2019
aeox wrote:
14 Feb 2019


It's not my opinion that 2 samples of delay isn't going to affect parallel processing after testing and hearing it for myself.
Ok. As you can see for yourself my english is bad i mean i have a hard time to explain what i think in easy way. If you feel i am flaming you i truly apologize that was not my intention. I value your opinion. Sorry again.

And i apologize in advance to other people. Keep in mind when reading my post and if you think i am sounding rude - it's not that. To tell you honestly genuinely honestly in this thread i only ever wanted to send poison arrows to developer himself. I think i used poison sentence in good context (this time)
I didn't think you were flaming me :D

I'm glad you made the thread because I learned something useful. Just wanted to make it clear that I had a false assumption and learned from that mistake.

S1GNL
Posts: 79
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Post 14 Feb 2019

seqoi wrote:
14 Feb 2019
S1GNL wrote:
14 Feb 2019
The mixer channel causes itself a delay, so don’t bother about 2 samples.

A. How did you measure it?

B. Filters, modulators and reverb FX are not precisely measurable.

If you want a "true PDC" DAW then switch to another. Reason is very flawed in that context.
Oh no...please don't do it do not derail thread. I will repeat and make it more clear:

- I do know what oversampling is
- I do know what is a delay introduced in a path (i work 25 years in audio)
- I NEVER said or bring modulators or reverbs in this thread (and i disagree with you on filter part but i even never mentioned Filter in this thread)
- "The mixer channel causes itself a delay, so don’t bother about 2 samples" i don't even want to know what you wanted to say about this one

Please let's make it clear i am talking about three plugins and do not want to go elsewhere. Don't tell me what should i be bothered with that is rude because you do not know my workflow.

If you think my findings are wrong please correct me and tell me what i did wrong. Something as "don't bother" isn't working for me. Some non related ideas not working either.

A: there are many many ways to measure latency. You even have RE plugin which can do that for you however i measured it manually with Reason own tools.

Please i beg you to not derail this. I am perfectly aware some users tend to drift away to something out of context but i was clear in my own original post what i am talking about. It's valentine day and i am sending you a hug.
How did you measure it manually?

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LarsK
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Post 14 Feb 2019

S1GNL wrote:
14 Feb 2019
How did you measure it manually?
I'm pretty sure he already mentioned in his first post, that he read it off Reason itself. :)

Image

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Red Rock
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Post 14 Feb 2019

seqoi wrote:
14 Feb 2019
In compressors he definitely oversample i verified that but he does not report latency. In his EQ there is no oversampling and no latency but switches are there on front panel. Like what the heck?
First I want to say thank you for the attention to our products. We really appreciate the opinion and listen to all comments, trying to correct errors as they become available.

Yes, there is a slight delay in overmpling, and we missed this point in the release version. We will fix this in the new revision. Thank God it is fixable, it was not worth shouting about it like this :) It seems I have already written to you on this forum that it is more efficient to write in @mail support.

In any case, this does not give you the right to insult us and write about the fact that we are doing the buttons on the GUI, which do not do any functions. Moreover, you did not bring any evidence.

I hope this video will clear up your doubts (Unless of course you understand what oversampling on equalizers gives).



Regarding our compressors, their latest update is dated "Released: 2013-10-03" at the time (If my memory serves me) was not yet delay compensation function in Reason. Of course, this is our omission and we will update all our products that have this disadvantage as soon as possible.

two shoes
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Post 14 Feb 2019

i think maybe the op is coming off as more combative than he intends due to english being a second language. does the dev behind Red Rock ever post on Reasontalk - I'd be curious to hear what he has to say about this criticism himself. a bunch of rack extensions don't report delay correctly in Reason, but I've never experienced audible phase issues from single digit sample delay, maybe my ears aren't good enough or i don't know what to listen for?

i'm actually more bothered by the allegation that the oversampling function in the new american series eqs is fake than the possibility that delay isn't being reported correctly. he's alleging that Red Rock is intentionally deceiving people about the functionality of their plugins which is something i think the dev should have an opportunity to respond to directly. does anyone know how to get in touch with mr. Red Rock?

if it's true that the eq does not utilize oversampling then the switch should not be there period. i don't personally know how to verify if oversampling is happening or not - can anyone confirm or deny this claim?

edit: looks like mr. Red Rock responded while i was writing my post. thanks for clearing that up!

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Red Rock
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Post 14 Feb 2019

two shoes wrote:
14 Feb 2019
i think maybe the op is coming off as more combative than he intends due to english being a second language. does the dev behind Red Rock ever post on Reasontalk - I'd be curious to hear what he has to say about this criticism himself. a bunch of rack extensions don't report delay correctly in Reason, but I've never experienced audible phase issues from single digit sample delay, maybe my ears aren't good enough or i don't know what to listen for?

i'm actually more bothered by the allegation that the oversampling function in the new american series eqs is fake than the possibility that delay isn't being reported correctly. he's alleging that Red Rock is intentionally deceiving people about the functionality of their plugins which is something i think the dev should have an opportunity to respond to directly. does anyone know how to get in touch with mr. Red Rock?

if it's true that the eq does not utilize oversampling then the switch should not be there period. i don't personally know how to verify if oversampling is happening or not - can anyone confirm or deny this claim?

edit: looks like mr. Red Rock responded while i was writing my post. thanks for clearing that up!


I’ll probably make a discovery for someone, but on every page in the store there is a link to product support.
Image



I honestly do not understand what you expect from oversampling on digital equalizers? There will be no “wow” effect when you turn on 4x. I think it will be useful for you to read this article:
https://science-of-sound.net/2016/07/ov ... qualizers/

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Red Rock
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Post 14 Feb 2019

two shoes wrote:
14 Feb 2019
he's alleging that Red Rock is intentionally deceiving people about the functionality of their plugins which is something i think the dev should have an opportunity to respond to directly.
Why should I fool users about a delay of 2 samples? :lol:
what is my benefit?

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Mmj85
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Post 14 Feb 2019

"we will update all our products that have this disadvantage as soon as possible"

Really looking forward for this, I have a few of your products and I completely adore them. I usually would compensate the samples needed manually when working with parallel channels but having them report the delay automatically would be a great while mixing!

Redrock you guys ROCK!

seqoi
Posts: 305
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

Post 15 Feb 2019

S1GNL wrote:
14 Feb 2019

How did you measure it manually?
Do i really have to explain you everything? See above even developer confirmed my findings. You know you can literally measure delay visually with any decent wave editor under controlled exported wav tests right?

seqoi
Posts: 305
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Post 15 Feb 2019

Red Rock wrote:
14 Feb 2019
two shoes wrote:
14 Feb 2019
he's alleging that Red Rock is intentionally deceiving people about the functionality of their plugins which is something i think the dev should have an opportunity to respond to directly.
Why should I fool users about a delay of 2 samples? :lol:
what is my benefit?
No let me be clear i never said you INTENTIONALLY fooled users about 2 samples of delay. As you said yourself there's no benefit to that. I said that you possibly did it because you are not experienced developer enough. Not being adequate is better word. I haven't tested your other plugins but you had fundamental issue passed on to three products from your portfolio. I am speaking about ALPHA SIGMA compressors here. Let me give you another standpoint. If it happened to you that such issues occurred in three of your products i am doubting your attention to details or knowledge. I am not insulting i have right to express my opinion based on my findings. If you can't accept critical opinion then i don't know what can i say more.
Red Rock wrote:
14 Feb 2019

Regarding our compressors, their latest update is dated "Released: 2013-10-03" at the time (If my memory serves me) was not yet delay compensation function in Reason. Of course, this is our omission and we will update all our products that have this disadvantage as soon as possible.
Oh really. It's their fault? So you had 4 full years (or something) of inspecting how your products are behaving on ever expanding platform where you are selling your products on, but somewhat you missed issues.
Red Rock wrote:
14 Feb 2019

I hope this video will clear up your doubts (Unless of course you understand what oversampling on equalizers gives).

Ooo geek chart and evil discrediting tone. I can play same. You act like you invented oversampling yourself. Like there is only you on this forum which know what oversampling is and difference between IIR or FIR filter. You probably used some free implementation code and you did it wrong (this is my guess not a fact). If not please correct me by answering next question.

I challenge you publicly. Here are my findings.

In your latest EQ 5600 (so there is no excuse for you that you did not know about Reason having PDC) released few days ago you are providing 2x and 4X oversampling. And NONE. Basically my session is at 44khz. 4x oversampling is 4x44khz.

How is possible that your latest EQ is offering 0 delay at NONE yet even after i enable 2x or 4x oversampling there is literally ZERO delay reported? I was able to measure 2 samples and really bad sound reconstruction after downsampling though.

That's impossible!!! It defy law of physics. You are the first developer ever in the world which can offer 0 delay 4x oversampling ever!!

But if that's not true (and it isn't true - 0 delay oversampling is impossible) - tell me how that happens?

Wait let me guess. You forgot that ANY type of upsampling/downsampling involve delay (let alone phase shifts if not done properly). It may be you did not even knew until this thread popped out - there is no proof that you knew - show me one plugin from your portfolio which behave normally (report latency) when oversampling is enabled?

And i never said that you are fooling people exactly it's in the original posting i said i need more time to test this. Later on i bragged about it and it was insinuation. But my finding of flawed design is true.

No really i looked at your portfolio and to me it seems you are not being straight or fair. And people should possibly report your behavior.

In this product : https://www.propellerheads.com/shop/rac ... colorizer/
01.jpg
You blatantly ripped of Antelope interface GUI. You even did not bothered to align rack ears, even that you ripped off you just inverted them horizontally. You even used ORION logo for your logo but you just blurred it and added PALETTE text. That's a breach in intellectual property.
02.jpg
So yeah i have my doubts about your efforts. My guess is that you think Reason users are kids with no technical background or long time experience in technologies. Your loss. On top of that you are not fair and you are stealing other people work. My evidence is posted. Antelope Orion interface.
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Last edited by seqoi on 15 Feb 2019, edited 5 times in total.

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