2nd hand market for REs

[antic604]

I really think we should have one, i.e. the ability to sell & transfer RE licenses.

On paper, lack of 2nd hand market - theoretically - drives bigger sales for Props & developers, as every user needs to buy the device separate instance of the device for themselves. We can't "pass it over" from one user to another, with little to no compensation for Props & developers.

But now we have VSTs in Reason that we can freely sell & transfer. I've given up on getting many REs because I was afraid I won't use them and I'll get stuck with them, so why spend the money? I prefer REs over VSTs for multitude of reasons, but being locked-in discourages me now, once I got most of the bases covered. And I know they're mostly cheap and there are sales, etc. but still 29, 49 or 99 EUR is a lot of money for something you eventually might not use and can't get rid of.

I don't know. Maybe Props could create a "2nd hand market" where people would put up their REs for an auction (with "pay now" option and/or ability to bid until certain moment in time) like on eBay and they'd charge their usual % off of the sale price to split with the developer? This way people would feel safer buying REs and Props would still retain control over the ecosystem - REs wouldn't be able to be sold & license transferred outside of this "market". Also that would be a relief for people who sold their Reason license and were left with REs.

What you all think?

Disclaimer: I don't think I'd sell anything I own right now (over EUR 1k in REs), but I'd definitely get few more if I knew I can sell them if I changed my mind later.

[O1B]

but, seriously. Speaking of Breakfast -



Just kidding!

But - yeah!

[antic604]

Just kidding!

But - yeah!

I'm clueless when it comes to food metaphors...
Can you elaborate on your answer, please?

[O1B]

All good!

I wish for exactly this! But - I - would have a Garage Sale. Everything must GO except for a choice few.
If I had an ounce of sense a couple days earlier, I'd own - at most -- 9.

I now understand Propellerheads wishing they could sell their REs.

... about the food metaphors... I guess I mean you are re-hashing an old request made 100s of times.
Again - Im with you, but...

[Loque]

I wish here and there i could sell some RE which i nearly never use. They just clutter my browser. But VSTs are not a good option either, since on a HD crash you may loose a lot of your licenses. I cross my fingers, that this is not happened to me yet, but it was very close on last crash - just before the system finally died, i could unlock a few important license including my Windows license which would easily cost more than 100 bucks. Thank god, that there are also some serial-only and online account-stuff licenses and not only iLok BS.

I am actually very happy that my RE and Reason license are still accessible after all those HD and system deads i had in the last time. I will see, when it comes to the "i need to contact the support" thing...

[antic604]

I wish here and there i could sell some RE which i nearly never use. They just clutter my browser. But VSTs are not a good option either...

But that has nothing to do with use being able to sell REs or not? Or am I mistaken?

Also I'm not sure how can you lose VST licenses? Aren't they - serial numbers - on your account with each respective VST developer and/or plugin reseller like Plugin Boutique? For exactly this purpose I keep an on-line spreadsheets with DAWs and VSTs, their serials, dev website, login & password so that I could (very laboriously, granted) rebuild my stuff if shit hits the fan...

[dioxide]

There was a thread here about it sometime, maybe better to add to that. The whole thing was debated pros and cons. Personally I'm against it.

[antic604]

There was a thread here about it sometime, maybe better to add to that. The whole thing was debated pros and cons. Personally I'm against it.

I didn't see it since I'm here (late 2017). I'll look it up. Thanks.

EDIT: I've found 2 topics, indeed "before my time"
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7493658&p=247299&hi ... ck#p247299
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7497329&p=289423&hi ... ck#p289423

[Loque]

I wish here and there i could sell some RE which i nearly never use. They just clutter my browser. But VSTs are not a good option either...

But that has nothing to do with use being able to sell REs or not? Or am I mistaken?

Also I'm not sure how can you lose VST licenses? Aren't they - serial numbers - on your account with each respective VST developer and/or plugin reseller like Plugin Boutique? For exactly this purpose I keep an on-line spreadsheets with DAWs and VSTs, their serials, dev website, login & password so that I could (very laboriously, granted) rebuild my stuff if shit hits the fan...

If you have iLok licenses bound to your computer and it crash, the licenses cannot be unbound anymore and cannot be bound to other computers. That means, you lost all those licenses and can only hope, that some vendors gave you a new one. The only chance to get new iLok licenses is cloud-bound or iLok key bound (including broken-iLok-Key recovery) licenses. That sucks so much, i dont have any words for it...

[EnochLight]

I really think we should have one, i.e. the ability to sell & transfer RE licenses.

...said everyone ever who has ever bought an RE.

I dunno' man - you're beating a dead horse with this one. Props have clearly indicated that they have no plans to offer a 2nd hand market/license transfer option with RE's. We have a much better chance of getting our 4K/high dpi support instead of this.

On an aside, offering such an option would require every dev to agree to the terms change, and that could be messy.

[MrFigg]

Look into my eyes. Look into my eyes. Not around the eyes. Look into my eyes. You’re under.
You ARE happy with all your RE purchases and WANT to keep them forever.
You will NEVER leave Reason in favour of another DAW.
You WILL spend ALL your money on new REs as and when they come out.
When I snap my fingers you’ll be back in the room.
1, 2, 3...and you’re back.
:):)

[Loque]

I really think we should have one, i.e. the ability to sell & transfer RE licenses.

...said everyone ever who has ever bought an RE.

I dunno' man - you're beating a dead horse with this one. Props have clearly indicated that they have no plans to offer a 2nd hand market/license transfer option with RE's. We have a much better chance of getting our 4K/high dpi support instead of this.

On an aside, offering such an option would require every dev to agree to the terms change, and that could be messy.

They have said, they never gonna support VST

[EnochLight]

They have said, they never gonna support VST

Actually, they never said those exact words - they just publicly criticized the VST format. That said, supporting VST did not require the consent of all the devs with over 500 Rack Extensions in the shop...

[ljekio]

The absence of a secondary RE market was always very strange for me. Maybe it like Appstore's sell model, but price level is different there. I think license's transfer model can be like ilok, with some percent for deal to the pshop.
It looks more attractive to me than different rental schemes.

[BRIGGS]

Likely someday, REs may be serialized and put on a blockchain for verification. Effectively making them tradable.

"The ability to assign rarity to digital assets was impossible before blockchain technology."

Blockchain Use Cases: Provably Rare Digital Assets:

https://steemit.com/ethereum/@sassal/bl ... tal-assets

An interesting bonus, RE developers could make exclusive limited runs on certain REs. Much like physical hardware.

[platzangst]

But now we have VSTs in Reason that we can freely sell & transfer. I've given up on getting many REs because I was afraid I won't use them and I'll get stuck with them, so why spend the money?

You know, there is a 30-day trial period. People have the ability to test the entire functionality of an RE for a month without committing to buy it - how much more does one need to get a sense of how much they'll use a synth or effects box? The only reason to not test it out is if you're certain you have a use for it or you panic because you might miss out on a sale price.

I'd definitely get few more if I knew I can sell them if I changed my mind later.[/i]

Really, what you're saying here is that you'd buy more REs if you could later dump part of that cost on some other person.

The whole argument for resale hinges on the inability of people to prioritize and properly manage their money. If spending money on an RE is too risky, in that you might be "stuck" with a program, then in my opinion you shouldn't be buying it in the first place. If you can't afford to eat that entire cost, don't buy it! You're supposedly buying a tool to aid you in creating music, not a pack of trading cards to swap with your buddies.

I just can't muster up too much sympathy for people who give in to impulse buying and then find themselves unable to get the money back when the buyer's remorse sets in. I'm not personally against resale for REs, if Props decided to allow it, but most of the pro-resale arguments that have gone on since REs were introduced have always struck me as mainly people looking to avoid responsibility for their own poor financial management (or on the flip side, people looking for any means to score a discount on expensive items). If I were managing Prop's store, I'd be more interested in getting stable sales from people who know they want a particular product than some theoretical increase in sales from people who buy licenses on a whim "just to try 'em out".

[platzangst]

An interesting bonus, RE developers could make exclusive limited runs on certain REs. Much like physical hardware.

They already do. There are some REs that were only available for a limited time and now you can't get them any more. (Not to mention REs that are no longer available due to the developer discontinuing them.)

[BRIGGS]

An interesting bonus, RE developers could make exclusive limited runs on certain REs. Much like physical hardware.

They already do. There are some REs that were only available for a limited time and now you can't get them any more. (Not to mention REs that are no longer available due to the developer discontinuing them.)

Sorry, I should have said 'tradable' exclusive limited runs. Mr. Smartypants.

[antic604]

You know, there is a 30-day trial period. People have the ability to test the entire functionality of an RE for a month without committing to buy it - how much more does one need to get a sense of how much they'll use a synth or effects box? The only reason to not test it out is if you're certain you have a use for it or you panic because you might miss out on a sale price.

Oh, I always test stuff but being a grown up, with full time (not music related) job, wife + 3 kids there are sometimes few weeks when I simply don't have the time to open a DAW. I try to only start the demos when I expect to have some free time, but life is often unpredictable

Really, what you're saying here is that you'd buy more REs if you could later dump part of that cost on some other person.

The whole argument for resale hinges on the inability of people to prioritize and properly manage their money. If spending money on an RE is too risky, in that you might be "stuck" with a program, then in my opinion you shouldn't be buying it in the first place. If you can't afford to eat that entire cost, don't buy it! You're supposedly buying a tool to aid you in creating music, not a pack of trading cards to swap with your buddies.

I just can't muster up too much sympathy for people who give in to impulse buying and then find themselves unable to get the money back when the buyer's remorse sets in. I'm not personally against resale for REs, if Props decided to allow it, but most of the pro-resale arguments that have gone on since REs were introduced have always struck me as mainly people looking to avoid responsibility for their own poor financial management (or on the flip side, people looking for any means to score a discount on expensive items). If I were managing Prop's store, I'd be more interested in getting stable sales from people who know they want a particular product than some theoretical increase in sales from people who buy licenses on a whim "just to try 'em out".

Ah, so you're the "better" person! I get it now

As I said, I wouldn't sell anything that I own now, but I'd feel "safer" purchasing REs I'm uncertain of, knowing that I can always get rid of them if I made a mistake... I probably wouldn't sell them either in the end, though. The thought of "trading them with my buddies" never even crossed my mind, because I believe it's unfair to developers in the same way like I don't subscribe to streaming services like Spotify and instead get my music directly from labels & artists (mostly via Bandcamp), making sure they get my money.

Also, your idealistic image of how one should run a *business* is ridiculous.

[O1B]

Absolutely ridiculous.

-"you'd buy more REs if you could later dump part of that cost on some other person."
The philosophy behind 'buying and selling' ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

- "hinges on the inability of people to prioritize and properly manage their money."

Don't Drunk Post, Dude.

Really, what you're saying here is that you'd buy more REs if you could later dump part of that cost on some other person.

The whole argument for resale hinges on the inability of people to prioritize and properly manage their money.

[platzangst]

As I said, I wouldn't sell anything that I own now, but I'd feel "safer" purchasing REs I'm uncertain of, knowing that I can always get rid of them if I made a mistake... I probably wouldn't sell them either in the end, though. The thought of "trading them with my buddies" never even crossed my mind, because I believe it's unfair to developers in the same way like I don't subscribe to streaming services like Spotify and instead get my music directly from labels & artists (mostly via Bandcamp), making sure they get my money.

Also, your idealistic image of how one should run a *business* is ridiculous.

"Safer" from what? You're making my point. If you're not buying as many REs now because you don't want to have to eat that entire cost on your own, then good, I think that's a sensible decision. Enabling reselling of REs only provides you with a motive to be more reckless with your purchases, and as you yourself point out, it doesn't benefit Props or the RE developers in any way, so without showing such a benefit, I don't know how any of the people arguing for re-sale think they'd ever make a convincing argument for it.

And just declaring my "image of how to run a business" as being ridiculous doesn't say anything, doesn't say how it's ridiculous. That's just namecalling, son.

This whole business is incoherent. If you think selling your REs to others is unfair to the developers and you wouldn't sell them anyway, then I don't know what the point is of you starting a thread about how it would be nice if one could re-sell REs.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Antic's echo has shown up I see.

[O1B]

No need for anything more with such "Cause and Effect ERRORS," lil Sis.

And just declaring my "image of how to run a business" as being ridiculous doesn't say anything, doesn't say how it's ridiculous. That's just namecalling, son.

Antic's echo has shown up I see.

[two shoes]

i'm not a lawyer so i could be mistaken, but from what i understand and have read about EU consumer protection regulations the prohibition against selling REs second hand seems like it would not stand up to a legal challenge. probably wouldn't help us muricans anyways but i'm surprised no one has brought this up - maybe i'm just misunderstanding the regulations.

for me personally if i can't sell something i don't consider myself to own it - instead i'm renting the right to use it from a company that grants me permission to do so - permission that could be revoked down the road for any number of reason including the company getting sold or going out of business.

[platzangst]

i'm not a lawyer so i could be mistaken, but from what i understand and have read about EU consumer protection regulations the prohibition against selling REs second hand seems like it would not stand up to a legal challenge.

People have been arguing this point ever since REs were introduced and the first person tried to re-sell one and found they couldn't. Considering how many years REs have been on the market, it would seem that if there was a viable legal challenge to be made, you'd think someone would have done it already.

[EnochLight]

i'm not a lawyer so i could be mistaken, but from what i understand and have read about EU consumer protection regulations the prohibition against selling REs second hand seems like it would not stand up to a legal challenge.

People have been arguing this point ever since REs were introduced and the first person tried to re-sell one and found they couldn't. Considering how many years REs have been on the market, it would seem that if there was a viable legal challenge to be made, you'd think someone would have done it already.

^^ THIS ^^

Armchair lawyers are about as accurate as armchair astrophysicists, IMHO. I don't even run a company in the EU, but you can be sure that if I did and I was starting a whole new product ecosystem, I'd be sure to consult an actual lawyer regarding the legality of my business model before going all-in.