I think the "Is the Reason 3rd party market going to die with VSTs" question is answered.

[kitekrazy]

I'll take sample based VSTs over a sample based RE. All of my sample based VSTs allow for storage on another drive. Sorry but I don't want to mess with the make link stuff for an RE.

[fotizimo]

Also RE and VSTs nowadays come with so many patches that buying additional ones isn't as needed whereas the the old Reason Factory bank had a fairly limited selection of presets. Nonetheless there are plenty of Refills that seem to be regularly added to the shop.

I guess this is my feeling on the refill market as well. Most of the newer REs that I have bought have come with so many great patches, and now the RE developers seem to be getting the refill devs into the original purchase. It works great when you buy a new RE, but means less refills afterwards.

I would say (from my non-dev view point) that the biggest hindrance to the RE devs at the moment, isn't the RE vs VST argument, but in fact how Propellerheads treats their dev community. I have seen some real horror stories around here, and have to admit, it doesn't sound like a fun platform to develop to when the product devs are so belligerent to their community.

I work at a company that aggressively scouts their dev market for up and coming talent, and when they find them, they embrace their solution, and highlight this to their user base. It makes for a really open market that is both highly knowledgeable and profitable.

I wish PH would wake up and realize that app development is a far more rapid, and agile place than it was even 5-6 years ago. Imagine if devs could create individual pieces of gear, such as in the Eurorack market, where developers typically make a device that does one thing very, very well, and that is it. In the Reason environment, RE developers have to master so many aspects, and all the wile fighting PH for SDK access that is locked out from them, as well as incredibly useless information on their customer-base.

From my perspective, PH just hasn't made the transition into a modern development shop, and seem locked into the older methods.

[QVprod]

Also RE and VSTs nowadays come with so many patches that buying additional ones isn't as needed whereas the the old Reason Factory bank had a fairly limited selection of presets. Nonetheless there are plenty of Refills that seem to be regularly added to the shop.

I guess this is my feeling on the refill market as well. Most of the newer REs that I have bought have come with so many great patches, and now the RE developers seem to be getting the refill devs into the original purchase. It works great when you buy a new RE, but means less refills afterwards.

I would say (from my non-dev view point) that the biggest hindrance to the RE devs at the moment, isn't the RE vs VST argument, but in fact how Propellerheads treats their dev community. I have seen some real horror stories around here, and have to admit, it doesn't sound like a fun platform to develop to when the product devs are so belligerent to their community.

I work at a company that aggressively scouts their dev market for up and coming talent, and when they find them, they embrace their solution, and highlight this to their user base. It makes for a really open market that is both highly knowledgeable and profitable.

I wish PH would wake up and realize that app development is a far more rapid, and agile place than it was even 5-6 years ago. Imagine if devs could create individual pieces of gear, such as in the Eurorack market, where developers typically make a device that does one thing very, very well, and that is it. In the Reason environment, RE developers have to master so many aspects, and all the wile fighting PH for SDK access that is locked out from them, as well as incredibly useless information on their customer-base.

From my perspective, PH just hasn't made the transition into a modern development shop, and seem locked into the older methods.

I don’t know if I’d go that far. They do develop far faster than they did in the past. And SDK access is very easy to attain unless your country makes starting a business complicated. I got access with zero issues. RE devs don’t have to create devices that do a bunch of different things. Take the latest Umph drum REs PH put out recently. They barely do more than Kong, but they’re fairly popular. I see it no different than the Eurorack market in that regard. One trick ponies seem to do well.

[EnochLight]

RE devs don’t have to create devices that do a bunch of different things. Take the latest Umph drum REs PH put out recently. They barely do more than Kong, but they’re fairly popular. I see it no different than the Eurorack market in that regard. One trick ponies seem to do well.

Umph actually does far less than Kong (no Nurse Rex; no analog drum modelling; only 8 pads versus Kong's 16), but you're right - they're popular. Arguably even funner to use than Kong once paired with Drum Sequencer. I love them.

I would love to see some RE devs step up to plate and using Props front cable trick and release their own Eurorack emulations.

[Oquasec]

The umpfe RE are romplers so they are not going to have nearly as much depth as kong man.
You could compare Kong to battery.

[EnochLight]

The umpfe RE are romplers so they are not going to have nearly as much depth as kong man.
You could compare Kong to battery.

They’re not romplers. You can sample in Umpf. A rompler has a set soundbank that doesn’t allow you to sample.

9F171749-C76F-4BFF-A4EC-299E1B248CA0.jpeg (178.34 KiB) Viewed 1817 times

[bitley]

The refill format is just a great means to save sounds. I don't understand what people here have against it. Take a Yamaha DX21 (or almost any other synth) and everyone loves that it is midi compatible and reads sysex, therefore it will last forever, always being compatible with the outside world. This technology is 17 years older than Reason itself. Reason can store samples, patches, songs and insane amounts of stuff in a refill and the files all gets 'zipped and unzipped' as part of the process. This was just as brilliant in the year 2000 as it is today and will be tomorrow as well. Having invested many years of my life into development of refills of course I will never leave that format – would be totally insane. There is no end to what can be done with a refill and those who think the process of throwing in a sample in the NNXT and then playing it is just about it should perhaps also say that now that there is internet we don't need roads anymore, not books either, in fact the entire concept of an outside world seems boring, dated and useless – "had enough of that, just give me more of internet please."

[tanni]

The refill format is just a great means to save sounds. I don't understand what people here have against it.

I can tell you why Im against refills. In past I had a lot of (and I mean a lot of) refills on my harddisk. Its a pain because in every refill there are only a few things I needed. Much Refills about 2 GB samples in it and I only need a few of them. So, in the refill format you cant delete the things you dont need. You are forced to fill your harddisk up with content you dont need anytime. And also you cant resort your samples. Further, if you backup songs in which you have only one sound (nnxt with samples) from a refill, you have to backup or to keep for all time such refills with your song.
Another problem: If you use the sample-self-containing function in reason for songs, if you work with your music-partner on the same song on two places/studios, he has to buy the same refills there, or you give him the refills what you are not allowed.
From the view of sellers refills are good format, from the view of users not.
So I'm prefer the content in raw format (wav), so I can delete all the stuff I dont need and resort and organize the stuff.
I dont use refills any more.

[avasopht]

I can tell you why Im against refills. In past I had a lot of (and I mean a lot of) refills on my harddisk. Its a pain because in every refill there are only a few things I needed. Much Refills about 2 GB samples in it and I only need a few of them. So, in the refill format you cant delete the things you dont need. You are forced to fill your harddisk up with content you dont need anytime. And also you cant resort your samples.

Exactly the same for REs and VSTs. More so in fact because some Refills come in bundles, so you can actually pick out the few sound sets you actually do like.

Further, if you backup songs in which you have only one sound (nnxt with samples) from a refill, you have to backup or to keep for all time such refills with your song.
Another problem: If you use the sample-self-containing function in reason for songs, if you work with your music-partner on the same song on two places/studios, he has to buy the same refills there, or you give him the refills what you are not allowed.

This hasn't been true since about Reason 5 or 6. You can go into any of your songs and self-contain all of the samples used in your Refills with a single-click and happily share your project with your music-partners.

[bitley]

While it is very true that some of my refills as well as Bitwords amazing work is in the 2 Gb genre, this is still very uncommon since most refills out there always have been around a couple of Megabytes. Personally I wanted to create a cool alternative to the Factory sound bank which was just as endlessly inspiring and usable. You would not want to throw things out of the FSB or... ?

Having a 2 GB refill is arguably a potent disk space saver as well, as the actual content can be up to 5 Gb thanks to Propellerheads' excellent and still unmatched shrink-and-expand technology inherent in the refill concept.

[EnochLight]

The refill format is just a great means to save sounds. I don't understand what people here have against it.

We've had this discussion a few times here. Rack Extensions - or in a Refill maker's case - an IDT - would allow you to create a customized GUI/UX that is far more inspirational to work with than a Combinator. It's pretty clear that people prefer RE's, as evidenced by Refill sales taking a nosedive since they appeared. Adapt to the market.

It also allows your users to sync all their accounts and easily recover the most recent version of your RE/IDT without worrying about any of the pitfalls mentioned above.

And for devs? It copy-protects your hard work. So many Refills can be found for free and/or pirated easily, it's sad.

[bitley]

Well sir I am the creator of a very fine library with 6,500 patches that took years to develop. Comments like yours are quite remarkable and we clearly come from dramatically different dimensions. Your comments also puts some kind of negative judgement on the work itself (i.e. like it would be better in any sort of way at all musically if put in a RE format which it wouldn't) and I know that the ones who bought it and uses it in their creative process never asks me to change anything. They just want more. Rack extension fanboyism blindfolds people's minds making them forget what it's all about. Since you mention illegal copies I must say I'm not taking you seriously at all. Admins on a site like this shouldn't even allow a comment like yours.

[fullforce]

With ghastly VST performance, I wonder why this thread is even here.

[EnochLight]

Wait - what? You are completely misinterpreting the intent of my response to you.

Well sir I am the creator of a very fine library with 6,500 patches that took years to develop.

Exactly - which is why copy protecting your hard work seems like it would be a good move, only in your interest. Not sure why you are unable to see this.

Comments like yours are quite remarkable and we clearly come from dramatically different dimensions. Your comments also puts some kind of negative judgement on the work itself (i.e. like it would be better in any sort of way at all musically if put in a RE format which it wouldn't) and I know that the ones who bought it and uses it in their creative process never asks me to change anything. They just want more. Rack extension fanboyism blindfolds people's minds making them forget what it's all about.

Your response is even more remarkable. You are clearly reading something unrelated nor intended in my comment. Comments like mine are honest opinion assessments of the Refill market, IMHO. As has been mentioned in the past, I was only illustrating the benefits of releasing sample libraries in an RE/IDT format. You can take the opinion/advice or leave it - it's no sweat off my back. Also, no need to resort to ad hominems, man. Fanboyism? Really?

Since you mention illegal copies I must say I'm not taking you seriously at all. Admins on a site like this shouldn't even allow a comment like yours.

Um... what? I point out the glaring obvious (you know as well as everyone does that Refills are just "files" that hold no copy protection and can freely be shared), and you're insinuating.. what exactly?

Honestly Bitley, I'm glad things are working out for you and you're selling tons of your Refills. Good on you, man! But you come to this thread and are offered - what I see as - a reasonable explanation of why people not only prefer RE/IDT, but why it's a good idea for Refill makers to consider porting their wares over to the format. There was no malice intended. Not sure why you think there is.

[QVprod]

Well sir I am the creator of a very fine library vwith 6,500 patches that took years to develop. Comments like yours are quite remarkable and we clearly come from dramatically different dimensions. Your comments also puts some kind of negative judgement on the work itself (i.e. like it would be better in any sort of way at all musically if put in a RE format which it wouldn't) and I know that the ones who bought it and uses it in their creative process never asks me to change anything. They just want more. Rack extension fanboyism blindfolds people's minds making them forget what it's all about. Since you mention illegal copies I must say I'm not taking you seriously at all. Admins on a site like this shouldn't even allow a comment like yours.

Enochlight said nothing wrong. He did not give a link to a pirated refill, simply stated a well known fact.

To answer you question about what people have against refills though , just as mentioned above; refills, especially sample based ones are limited by the combinator. 4 buttons and 4 knobs just isn’t enough. The RE format would not exist if it were. No one wants to dig through God knows how many devices in a chain to figure out how things are connected in order just to tweak a preset the way you want to. I shouldn’t have to mention how much a UI matters to people if you’ve ever read any RE thread on this forum. People care about looks as well as ease of use beyond loading a patch. Sample based refills just can’t offer that.

Now if refill sales are going great for you then that’s wonderful. But it’s clearly not the norm.

[bitley]

I'm not Norm! I'm God! (Since I know how many devices)

[AttenuationHz]

Not third-party, but in regards to REs... A thread regarding an update on Reason VST performance posted 5 days ago by Mattias himself has about 100 less replies and 2000 less views than the thread about Complex-1 posted yesterday.

A nice distraction one could say, but its not as if Reason is broken without a performance increase. I could hold out till next year (1yr) for that update TBH. Would be nice having the update but I have been getting by without it myself.

[EnochLight]

Enochlight said nothing wrong. He did not give a link to a pirated refill, simply stated a well known fact.

To answer you question about what people have against refills though , just as mentioned above; refills, especially sample based ones are limited by the combinator. 4 buttons and 4 knobs just isn’t enough. The RE format would not exist if it were. No one wants to dig through God knows how many devices in a chain to figure out how things are connected in order just to tweak a preset the way you want to. I shouldn’t have to mention how much a UI matters to people if you’ve ever read any RE thread on this forum. People care about looks as well as ease of use beyond loading a patch. Sample based refills just can’t offer that.

Now if refill sales are going great for you then that’s wonderful. But it’s clearly not the norm.

^^ Exactly this.

I'm not Norm! I'm God! (Since I know how many devices)

[avasopht]

and I know that the ones who bought it and uses it in their creative process never asks me to change anything.

Personally I much like them how they are as it gives me the freedom to modify the patches to my own liking from time to time, but IDT has tools to import your Kontakt patches. It does have a copy protected Refill for patches but I'm not sure if it can include samples. If it did that would be pretty ideal.#s

[bitley]

Well while I usually am a huge fan of Pheads wordplay I kind of feel alienated by being called an IDT not being able to code anything but HTML and Sinclair QL Basic. As for four knobs and buttons feel very free to check the new free WBF R2Y 1 and count how many parameters they affect. (48 x 4 for the knobs alone). Cheers! Awesome cat btw!

[QVprod]

Well while I usually am a huge fan of Pheads wordplay I kind of feel alienated by being called an IDT not being able to code anything but HTML and Sinclair QL Basic. As for four knobs and buttons feel very free to check the new free WBF R2Y 1 and count how many parameters they affect. (48 x 4 for the knobs alone). Cheers! Awesome cat btw!

Missing the point. Anyone who knows how to use a combinator can program a knob to affect multiple things. It's really simple. But it does not allow the same level of separate control over multiple individual functions as a RE with a specifically designed UI. You have to be able to see that. Remember we're talking about the end user/customer here, not the sound designer/refill maker. Again, not saying you have to adapt your products in particular, but overall that explains why the refill market isn't booming.

And why would you feel alienated? No one really cares whether or not you code it from the ground up if it's a good product. You don't see people having a lesser view of the quality of Kontakt libraries because they're not stand alone plugins.

[EdGrip]

Man. If you wouldn't keep being so weird on here we might buy more refills.

[EnochLight]

Man. If you wouldn't keep being so weird on here we might buy more refills.

[bitley]

As long as you're weird in the right sense I see nothing weird with that.

[hurricane]

Missing the point. Anyone who knows how to use a combinator can program a knob to affect multiple things. It's really simple. But it does not allow the same level of separate control over multiple individual functions as a RE with a specifically designed UI. You have to be able to see that. Remember we're talking about the end user/customer here, not the sound designer/refill maker. Again, not saying you have to adapt your products in particular, but overall that explains why the refill market isn't booming.

I'm not a fan of the 'super combinator mega- layered subtractor/thor patch multi-effect extravaganza' refills. But the higher quality sample based NNXT refills - yeah, I'm all over those. Maybe I'm just old-school when it comes to Reason, but I'd much rather use the Analogue Monsters NNXT refill than Luna or Mala. I like having NNXT sample libraries because I have more flexibility and power and can mix and match samples from my favorite libraries (Pinkoise, Goldbaby, Bitley, Nevo). I also REALLY enjoy using the NNXT. I have a similar setup in Logic with my EXS24 - and I wouldn't want all my individual EXS24 sample libraries converted to some half-assed AU plugin either.