Interesting comments there... Not sure if that in fact really means that the NDAs about the SDK is lifted...
D.
I fully understand and support the cause - however...antic604 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018I'm halfway through, but if anything this talk makes me EVEN MORE pissed off about the VST (and RE) performance as well as low-res GUI.
Who cares if they were so smart that 6 years ago they've imposed a requirement for RE devs to provide you with high-res assets and vector graphics, if they're not using any of that and Reason 10 still looks like it did on a 720p screens? Who cares if they're handling all the threading for the REs, if their job allocation breaks down on newer i9 processors or when hyper-threading is enabled? Why talk about processing the DSP on many computer or on GPU, if they're not even rendering the GUI on the GPU?
Well:Exowildebeest wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018It's probably not as easy as just "throwing the GUI on the GPU". Involving GPU's doesn't necessarily save CPU either. The CPU still needs to keep track of the invisible numbers behind the GUI, and send instructions to the GPU. And there's the issue of bugs, bugs, bugs and more bugs popping up when the many different GPU's people use become an additonal factor in hardware configurations. How would it run on really crappy GPU's? Would there be a software rendering mode to fall back on? I suspect it's very difficult for Propellerheads to pull this off, for little gain. I think they'll take the safer route of staying with software rendering (it ain't broke*) and just update the assets.
Don't get me wrong - I'm excited for what's ahead, ELK included, but I'm still mad they've envisaged and had all this technology in place but only recently (since 9.5) started really doing something about it... It's as if before the acquisition they were in a coma...EnochLight wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018Dude, I'm totally with you on proper high DPI/4K display support, as well as getting the VST-performance fix out, but come on man - can't you see the forest through the trees?
You're assuming they haven't been doing anything with the tech for the past 6 years. Perhaps it's taken this long just to get things "settled" and mature, not to mention keeping the RE SDK updated and relevant, plus keep their main product (Reason) relevant.
Take a moment and realize they have user data from Reason's stats that call home - they KNOW how many users have high-res/DPI displays. Have you considered that they weighed the necessity to bring everything up to high res/DPI and determined that maybe there were other things that were more important for the time being?
You're right. I just came back from the walk I neededEnochLight wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018Don't worry - we'll all see high res/DPI support and performance fixes at some point. Take a breath; it's not that big of a deal IMHO (and I'm saying this coming from using Reason on a 65" 4K panel this past weeked).
What has me excited most is - well - I guess two things:antic604 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018BTW, this video really cements my hypothesis that they want to draw more developers to RE format and Europa VST was just a proof-of-concept. Soon they'll be able to tell the 3rd party devs - come to us, develop an RE and we'll translate it to any format you want (VST, webapp, hardware), host the files & updates for you, take care of promotion & sales (incl. rent-to-own & subscriptions) and provide piracy protection in exchange for a small cut of profits. That's probably not interesting for NI, Waves or Arturia, but most small developers should really pay attention!
It's refreshing to see a dev's input like this; thanks for sharing!rcbuse wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018Man, thats a pretty damn remarkable technology stack. What they do with transpiling and llvm bitcode to all those targets is seriously impressive. Being able to take 500 REs and just BAM retarget them to WHATEVER... I'm not sure if non-developers can appreciate what a monster feat of a toolchain and architecture that is. The take away isn't "oh man, they haven't been doing high-res displays and VSTs are having problems." The take away is "They have been securing the next 10-20 years of development". And when you are running Reason 15 on your 64 core ARM, or on some other chip/device that doesn't even exist yet, your cakewalk RE2A Rack Extension can be there.
It really is impressive, and as soon as I read about their design and their separation of concerns in the SDK docs I realized what an interesting mid-game strategy they had back in 2012 for this era that we are about to enter, where they have the SDK up to its current level and a wide base of plugins that they can more or less unleash onto any given platform... and, presumably, they are working on full-on replacements for all the pre-SDK devices (new devices entirely) or upgraded editions of old classics (Nano Grain in a Kong pad, please!) so that the rack can evolve without any old dependency (and deliver the eye candy we are all waiting for). ...EnochLight wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018It's refreshing to see a dev's input like this; thanks for sharing!rcbuse wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018Man, thats a pretty damn remarkable technology stack. What they do with transpiling and llvm bitcode to all those targets is seriously impressive. Being able to take 500 REs and just BAM retarget them to WHATEVER... I'm not sure if non-developers can appreciate what a monster feat of a toolchain and architecture that is. The take away isn't "oh man, they haven't been doing high-res displays and VSTs are having problems." The take away is "They have been securing the next 10-20 years of development". And when you are running Reason 15 on your 64 core ARM, or on some other chip/device that doesn't even exist yet, your cakewalk RE2A Rack Extension can be there.
That's an unnecessary jab at my comment, in particular because - paraphrasing your own words - they've secured the assets & vector data required to render Reason in 4K already 6 years ago, but to this day made no use of this.
I'm obviously not a programmer, but I can see both sides... It's great and important to have ambitious long term goals with amazing feats, but if you leave your users (or parts of them) wanting too much you might never actually get to that point as they just might call it quits on your product / service....antic604 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018That's an unnecessary jab at my comment, in particular because - paraphrasing your own words - they've secured the assets & vector data required to render Reason in 4K already 6 years ago, but to this day made no use of this.
It's rarely those that come up with some clever tech that succeed. It's those, who are able to implement & deploy it.
My point exactly.eusti wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018I'm obviously not a programmer, but I can see both sides... It's great and important to have ambitious long term goals with amazing feats, but if you leave your users (or parts of them) wanting too much you might never actually get to that point as they just might call it quits on your product / service....
Depends... do I count as a non-developer if I have access but probably won’t develop? I spent the whole last half of the video with my mouth open. And here people are worried about Propellerhead’s future. They’ve been future proofing themselves for the last 6 years! The RE format might actually blow up to be significantly more popular in the coming years.rcbuse wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018I'm not sure if non-developers can appreciate what a monster feat of a toolchain and architecture that is. The take away isn't "oh man, they haven't been doing high-res displays and VSTs are having problems." The take away is "They have been securing the next 10-20 years of development". And when you are running Reason 15 on your 64 core ARM, or on some other chip/device that doesn't even exist yet, your cakewalk RE2A Rack Extension can be there.
That's an interesting point. In the past often better marketing or connections won the race and not the better products. Thats why we are doomed with Windows today, which GUI runs slower than the GUI on a C64 which is a more than 10000 times slower machine.eusti wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018I'm obviously not a programmer, but I can see both sides... It's great and important to have ambitious long term goals with amazing feats, but if you leave your users (or parts of them) wanting too much you might never actually get to that point as they just might call it quits on your product / service....antic604 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2018
That's an unnecessary jab at my comment, in particular because - paraphrasing your own words - they've secured the assets & vector data required to render Reason in 4K already 6 years ago, but to this day made no use of this.
It's rarely those that come up with some clever tech that succeed. It's those, who are able to implement & deploy it.
D.
And you know what? If I were on Verdane's BOD years ago and shopping potential new investments, this certainly would have sealed the deal.
It think that was probably what tipped the scale too. Spectacular.
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