Should Propellerheads turn Reason into a AU/VST and focus solely on content rather than being a DAW?

[kuhliloach]

A VST version of Reason might be cool but by no means should that be the only version of the future. With a few tweaks and upgrades I could see Reason becoming the world's leading #1 DAW. In fact the poll here on ReasonTalk is gold--improved audio editing, hi resolution UI, beefed up Combinator, and sequencer improvements. BAM.

[CephaloPod]

The Reason rack running seamlessly within Logic would be the ultimate DAW for me.

[KarmaFunkarma]

Long time lurker - First post - Reason user since version 1.0

Since Props brought in private equity ownership a little over a year ago, I'd suggest they will do whatever drives the most short & long term growth / return on investment. Could be any of a number of possibilities. I have no data, but it seems logical that VST's could play a larger role since that market is huge. On the other hand, I did M&A work for many years before retiring and there's almost no financial scenario (remember Props is a business) where the existing products are tossed in favor of some untested strategy. FWIW.

[ShawnG]

IMO, props should offer the reason rack in VST form, but should not stop developing the DAW.

[abeonis]

The best way to go IMHO is to provide VST versions of some of their REs. (for instance DrOctoRex, is there a VST competitor?). Another point I need to check is how to transfer automation lanes from DAWx to Reason (Probaly MIDI). It looks like all of us feel the need, soon or late, to use a second DAW. A great portability implementation between DAWs, based on VST would be a great competitive differentiation. But please, keep Reason as it is. Its GUI with all these cables makes me feel 30 years younger.

[jlgrimes]

I know I’m probably going to get a bit of flack for asking this one, but do you think Propellerheads should ditch having Reason as its own DAW and focus solely on content and have Reason be a dedicated Instrument and FX AU/VST plugin to be used inside other DAWs?

I’ve been a long time Reason user but I’ve always found myself using it alongside another DAW (in my case Logic Pro) for many years now.
Despite Reason growing and becoming more capable over the years with it adopting some of the more common features of other DAWs, it still makes me feel a fair bit disappointed that there’s so many features missing by comparison. I’m sure I’m not the only one, just things such as curved automation, adjusting multiple faders at once, group audio track editing etc. It baffles me that progress is so slow and that Reason lacks so much.

I don’t want to criticise Propellerheads too much as I know they aren’t a huge company with endless resources compared to companies like Apple and Avid. ...and to me Reason is still the most inspiring and unique music creation software there is where nearly all of my music starts to take shape.

I just wonder if it anyone else feels that maybe Reason would be better off purely as a plugin where Propellerhead could focus on creating amazing rack devices and instruments and not have to play catch up to other DAWs features with progress being as slow as it is?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think this would be a bad idea to abandon Reason concept.

There are some things Reason has going for it.

1. Routing & CV.
2. Easy to use sequencer.
3. Good timestretching/pitch shifting algorithm.
4. Decent drum machines.
5. Good Comping feature (cough Ableton)
6. Bounce in Place (cough Ableton)
7. Ability to type in midi values in piano roll.



Besides a massive GUI rewrite, I think most of Reasons improvements are more small features like being able to change snap resolution via key commands. Muting piano roll notes. Probably something a summer intern could do.


Also if Reason really went VST, they would still have the same obstacles they have now and would be even worse.

IMO only a few of Reasons devices would really be good VST candidates:

1. Europa
2. Grain
3. Scream
4. RV7000
5. A few other effects.
6. Thor (maybe 10 years ago)
7. Malstrom (for a low low price).


Reason would still need to modernize their GUI (especially with older devices), and add better features for most of these devices.


VST market is highly competitive. Synths like Synthmaster One does almost what Europa can do for $50. And you have stuff like Serum, Avenger, Falcon to compete with. Europa is nice though as it got some tricks up it's sleeve and is at a reasonable price but it will be interesting to see if it makes a dent.

Grain would be more competitive IMO as their is a void for that type of synth.

But synths like Subtractor, would almost need to be freeware without updates.

Thor is a great synth but stuff like Zebra, Synthmaster would give it some trouble.

Samplers in VSTs have truly evolved to beast samplers like Kontakt. Even things like Simpler included in DAWs, would make it hard to want NN19.

Redrum is a nice candidate but with stuff like Geist, I don't know.



I think what Reason has going for it is all of their devices work well with each other, not that one device is truly great.

[wireless]

No.

For me Reason is way more than just a bunch of instruments that could be farmed out as VST's. Others in this thread have commented that the distance to go is way less than the distance travelled and I agree with that. As a systems and electronics design engineer by first passion, I love the Rack paradigm first and foremost.
In Reason this paradigm is pretty unique and it fits my head like a glove (anyone for a mixed metaphor?).

glove on head.jpg (9.17 KiB) Viewed 1977 times

I can empathise with the thought process that starts with thinking about Reaon's 'inadequacies' in some depth. Recurring gripes we have as a community appear to be 1) missing functionality / workflow and 2) relatively slow speed of development progress. We individually have to decide whether these gripes are sufficiently severe that we drop Reason and jump ship to another DAW. However I tend to think that our decision is a bit more nuanced than that as we have options that include using Reason as a part of our workflow, augmented by other software and/or DAW.

Where I'm at right now for example, is in being frustrated that Reason cannot cope with MPE and there seems to be no drive towards that in Props. From this forum I detect an insufficient level of other users knocking the door down to get this included and hence am becoming resigned to the fact that a relatively small Props design team will not be including this any time soon. In similar vein, I have bought VST plug-ins that exhibit reductions in capability when used with Reason (as these are only available as VST 3).

However for me these shortfalls just mean that I'm using other methods to get to my objectives in Reason rather than ditching it all together. I also own copies of Reaper, Tracktion and Sonar but first choice is 99% Reason.

[two shoes]

the comments about the original dev team having long since left and the rack maybe being impossible to "vectorize" (i assume this is something you need to do to scale it on hi res displays?) worry me. if they were to announce anytime in the next five years that development of reason as a full DAW was stopping and it was just going to be a VST from here on out I'd be devastated - the SSL mixer was what originally hooked me with reason. to abandon that beautiful mixer and the integration between it, the rack, and the sequencer simply because the sequencer needs to be updated and the rack needs to be scalable would be a tragedy.

while i think grain is just about the coolest sample manipulation instrument thing ever created (i now carry a little zoom recorder everywhere just to record random stuff to put in it), i wouldn't mind one bit if Reason 11 didn't include a single new device if they'd do the following:

- VST MIDI OUT!!!!!! (this is mandatory)
- fix the vst and multi-core performance bugs
- update the first gen devices (an overhaul of NN-XT especially)
- make the rack scalable
- do a major update to audio editing, fill in the midi editing gaps
- give us track grouping/nesting in the sequencer and mixer
- fix the broken Mackie universal protocol support
- animate CV modulated controls
- cut a deal with delora allowing them to add every last RE to rstouch

if they'd do that stuff I'll be a happy camper (and a profitable customer) for many years to come.

[aeox]

I don't understand how someone could even conceive of such an idea! Don't be silly

[ltbrunt00]

Are you Crazy, Reason needs to be A DAW. The props should support VST. Maybe release the Rack extension and for 30 dollars more you can have the VST version.

Reason user since 1.0, paying reason user since 2.0. Wouldn't have stuck with reason this long for it to cease being a DAW. Heck the money I pay for the upgrades is for current and future DAW enhancements.

[Timmy Crowne]

I don’t think Props should go the plugins-only route. There’s still a unique and potentially huge market for Reason as a DAW. There’s really nothing like it on the DAW market AFAIK. It definitely needs the improvements we’ve batted about for the last few years, but the core program is solid.

I started 13 years ago. What made Reason special back then was its openness, modularity. Devices were simple but the combinations were endless. You felt like you were being challenged to explore and experiment. If Props can rekindle that spirit, Reason will be fine.

If they opened it up with a basic graphical scripting environment ala Reaktor, they could satisfy a lot of requests while giving themselves the time to focus on program efficiency and big upgrades. They could even go fully modular with a non-SDK user-side toolkit. Allow users to build and share their own modules:

Want a better sequencer?
Build or download one.

Wanna try an API mixer? Neve?
You have the tools. Some quick internet browsing will yield frequency plots or convolution files to get the color right.

Bigger Combinator? Players? Auto guitar-voicer?
Go ahead.

Don’t like the GUI?
You know what to do.

Imagine being able to open Reason Workshop. Build your own synths, players, effects, mixers, etc. Assemble components like note-in/outs, amps, filters, envelopes, LFOs, randomizers, logic arguments, etc. Choose a theme for panels and knobs from wood, brushed metal, plastic, digital, etc. Drop your creation into Reason and share it to a live community. Charge for it or don’t charge for it.

Reason would be “a world of pure imagination.”

[djadalaide]

I've been thinking for a while, just fold everything into the rack (blocks / sequencer / mixer channels) and make it fully modular - then it can be a plugin or host plugins.

[Terhox]

I am totally newbie to todays music making, I just bought Akai LPK25 Wireless and there come license to Reason Lite for free. I have basic level license for FL Studio, bought many years ago just for experimenting (one payment and updates always free). I thought previously that I would like to learn FL Studio 20 now, because it was in many places said to be the best DAW. But after just trying some Reason instruments and effects and general workflow, I just said to myself that "wow, that's something I have waited for so long." I would like to Reason story to continue. There's big learning curve for beginners learning DAW always, but Reason is clearly best of all.

[Marco Raaphorst]

I've been thinking for a while, just fold everything into the rack (blocks / sequencer / mixer channels) and make it fully modular - then it can be a plugin or host plugins.

Yes I am thinking the same thing. Like Reaktor.

[cognitive]

That would be 17 years of personal experience with Reason and 9 years as my only DAW, down the drain as I was forced to switch to other software.

I happen to LIKE the way Reason works. Just having the SSL mixer right there in front of me, whenever I want, is gold to me.

So, no.

[ltbrunt00]

If anything I wish Studio one, Bitwig & ableton was more like Reason. Reason seems to be the only DAW building an ecosystem of tools/products to add different value to the DAW.

In just over a year we got VST support, Subscription service. Regular updates to the SDK, Constant flow of Rack Extensions, 3rd party players.

Other DAWs to attract users could work with the Props to use RE's in their Daw.

[sdst]

there are millions of contents, i dont need more content

please focus on the Daw

[QVprod]

If anything I wish Studio one, Bitwig & ableton was more like Reason. Reason seems to be the only DAW building an ecosystem of tools/products to add different value to the DAW.

In just over a year we got VST support, Subscription service. Regular updates to the SDK, Constant flow of Rack Extensions, 3rd party players.

Other DAWs to attract users could work with the Props to use RE's in their Daw.

To be fair. Other DAWs don't need to. It's not that they don't add tools to their platforms, they all add proprietary plugins (free or paid) from time to time. However, because other programs don't have their own closed plugin format, they don't have to be concerned about sdk updates and a flow of products in the same way. Also, they're covered on the add on front because of the 1000s of VSTs that exist that cover instruments, fx, and even midi fx (players). No need for subscription services because their main (and sometimes only) product is the DAW itself, and perhaps some hardware. Reason is in a unique position where It has to maintain an ecosystem to survive; which actually is further reason it shouldn't only be a plugin. Replacing Rewire with a plugin version so that Reason's ecosystem, including RE, can be better used in other DAWS on the other hand would be an amazing feature.

[palkid]

the comments about the original dev team having long since left and the rack maybe being impossible to "vectorize" (i assume this is something you need to do to scale it on hi res displays?) worry me.

Even if most of the UI needs to be recreated for properly displaying on hi resolution displays, I don't understand how this wouldn't be anything but an easy job for even an average UI designer. It would definitely be tedious but it isn't a challenge that requires a groundbreaking innovation to fix unless I'm missing something.

[bitley]

I see no problems with them releasing a VSTi / AU called Rack but that'd be a different product.

[ind3xs]

Did have a nice long post but it’s decided to delete itself [emoji52]

Long story short, I personally feel Reason is in a “Frankenstein’s monster” state at the moment.
As much as I love its unique and inspiring approach to making music, the modern devices such as Europa and the Players just look so out of place alongside the ancient devices like Subtraktor and the NNXT.
I think a lot of those old devices such as the NN19 and NNXT are in such a desperate need of an upgrade, not just visually but also in terms of features also.

Well than don't use them. Its not like PPHs (and RE's) did not bring alternative one the sampling side of things over recent years. You've got a point that NN19 and NNXT are at this point to a certain extend obsolete legacy devices. But still useful and as a long time user im sometimes still drawn to them. Mostly Subtractor.

[Oquasec]

Some daws actually baked Reason's parameters in there like it was a vst already.
Studio one/Reaper/Ableton baked all the RE parameters into them-self like it was a native plugin.
Not sure if fl studio does it like them but they certainly made reason embedded.