How do I know an RE isn't just some advanced combinator of stock / sdk devices?

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normen
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17 May 2018

Kenni wrote:
17 May 2018
Loque wrote:
17 May 2018
Now i am hungry. Thx man :x ;)
Bleh, me too. :(
..and I want a new compressor RE now ;)

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guitfnky
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17 May 2018

Kenni wrote:
17 May 2018
I do wish that there was a clear way as a consumer to distinct between devices written using original DSP code and libraries made available for the overall Reason SDK ecosystem only though.
I actually have the opposite view. I’d rather not know one way or the other. ultimately, it comes down to how a device sounds, its utility to me as a user, and cost/value. from my perspective, which tools were used to build it shouldn’t play any factor in my decision. it seems that this need to know how a developer did it is more a distraction than anything else.

you hit the nail on the head with your workflow comment. most of us who have been using Reason for awhile are probably familiar with some of Selig or Peff’s incredibly complex (and useful!) combis. sure, that stuff is possible to wire up yourself in Reason a lot of the time, but I can’t imagine an average user wanting to spend that much time and analysis trying to figure that out if they don’t have to. the thought of buying a Refill with those tools wasn’t out of the question, so even if devs using these tools did amount to not much more than creating a complex combi inside a rack extension, that’s still potentially valuable to a lot of people.

but again, that’s just my opinion, so take that for what it’s worth. :)
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eusti
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17 May 2018

What I'm missing in threads like this is what could be described as kindness or respect... I think its ok to state if you don't like things and it might even be very helpful for the developers... Though it could help to think of these REs as any other kind of creation... Like for instance pieces of music... Just imagine someone would say these things about your music... Songs that you worked hard on and poured your soul into... Yes, in objectively it might not be the best thing since the Beatles, but most likely it's the best you thought you could do under those circumstances... And then - in my limited understanding - writing a piece of software takes a lot longer than writing a song, so there is more on the line.

Again: Yes, please share what you think and how you feel about things, that's what I assume this forum is about, but maybe be a bit more considerate.

D.

danc
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17 May 2018

eusti wrote:
17 May 2018
What I'm missing in threads like this is what could be described as kindness or respect... I think its ok to state if you don't like things and it might even be very helpful for the developers... Though it could help to think of these REs as any other kind of creation... Like for instance pieces of music... Just imagine someone would say these things about your music... Songs that you worked hard on and poured your soul into... Yes, in objectively it might not be the best thing since the Beatles, but most likely it's the best you thought you could do under those circumstances... And then - in my limited understanding - writing a piece of software takes a lot longer than writing a song, so there is more on the line.

Again: Yes, please share what you think and how you feel about things, that's what I assume this forum is about, but maybe be a bit more considerate.

D.
I agree that a level of respect and kindness is required - especially over things that have taken a lot of effort to create. However, there does need to be a compelling reason to buy an RE - not just bought out of sympathy for their long-hours of effort and dedication to the Reason platform.

I want to love the new catalogue of REs - just failing to find a reason to (apart from Noise Engineering new REs - which although niche, do knock out some meaty sounds).
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QVprod
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17 May 2018

danc wrote:
17 May 2018

Sorry to come across negative, but I feel like I'm falling into a trap of now buying an RE just out of loyalty (and support people for putting in the effort) these days rather than because they are better investment.
I'd recommend that nobody does this. If you really want the RE market to grow, don't buy things that are sub par. If a dev puts out a crap RE and makes decent sales, it's highly possible they'll make more crap REs, whereas if it doesn't sell there's some introspection that may occur an cause them to put out better quality.

Now Personally I'm a bit iffy about the GE effect RE thing as well, but I do appreciate turn2on's breakdown. In the concept of a Reaktor comparison, yes there are some great Reaktor fx that do in fact sound different. However even those don't seem to be viewed on the same level commercial VSTs. Not saying that they're not but Kontakt instruments do get the same level of respect as VSTs. I guess the answer is 'We'll see" as to how beneficial this is to the RE platform.

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guitfnky
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17 May 2018

this -vvvvv
eusti wrote:
17 May 2018
What I'm missing in threads like this is what could be described as kindness or respect... I think its ok to state if you don't like things and it might even be very helpful for the developers...
...
Again: Yes, please share what you think and how you feel about things, that's what I assume this forum is about, but maybe be a bit more considerate.

D.
agree completely. it's totally fine to not have interest in what a particular developer might be putting out, but going out of your way to call out that developer for an opinion on their products adds nothing, and only harms the developer. and if harming the dev is the goal, that's kind of a crap thing to do.

and also this -vvvvv
QVprod wrote:
17 May 2018
danc wrote:
17 May 2018

Sorry to come across negative, but I feel like I'm falling into a trap of now buying an RE just out of loyalty (and support people for putting in the effort) these days rather than because they are better investment.
I'd recommend that nobody does this. If you really want the RE market to grow, don't buy things that are sub par. If a dev puts out a crap RE and makes decent sales, it's highly possible they'll make more crap REs, whereas if it doesn't sell there's some introspection that may occur an cause them to put out better quality.
totally agree here too. brand loyalty can be a great thing, but as you say, it can also lead to laziness on the part of the developer, which is bad for everyone-user base and developer alike.
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pothole
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17 May 2018

shouldn't there be a separate category in the shop for these devices using the idt / ujam gorilla engine?

a bad move by propellerheads to take this route imo but hey --> that's crappy capitalism!!! ;)

"Rack Extensions take all the good things about plugins and then marries it to all the good things about Reason."
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ernst takes all the good things and .....

WongoTheSane
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17 May 2018

pothole wrote:
17 May 2018
shouldn't there be a separate category in the shop for these devices using the idt / ujam gorilla engine?

a bad move by propellerheads to take this route imo but hey --> that's crappy capitalism!!! ;)

"Rack Extensions take all the good things about plugins and then marries it to all the good things about Reason."
Ernst Nathorst-Böös, CEO

ernst takes all the good things and .....
But then they would need another category for non-IDT devices copy-pasted from dsp.stackexchange... And also another one for those who dare use c++ standard libraries, I mean, real coders do their string management by hand in hexa codes!

I'm not sure the debate is IDT = bad, not IDT = good. It's rather bringing something new, original or more convenient to the table = good, reselling old stuff under new packaging = not so good, whether said stuff is written in C++, IDT or ancient Greek.

sdst
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17 May 2018

the Re Checker, if you look closely is a combinator

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pothole
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17 May 2018

no i'm not saying idt is bad --> i'm saying that they had a choice (making a separate category ) and picked the one that would make them more money --> ie. not making a separate category

which leaves the rest of us worse off
Last edited by pothole on 17 May 2018, edited 5 times in total.

seqoi
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17 May 2018

What's the fuss about?

Audiomatic RE is just that. Combinator FX wrapped in a nice GUI.

https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/audioma ... ansformer/

And i don't care! Why? Because it is exactly what it is! A nice gui which is (most importantly) offering me fast workflow and easy to dial in sounds.,..

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jayhosking
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17 May 2018

danc wrote:
17 May 2018

Whereas, in the small swimming pool of REs, I am really struggling to find even one tool that I want/need or even tempted to demo. Everything new just seems to be a not-very-good derivative of something that's better within the VST world.
It sounds as though you're not looking very hard, or maybe just being myopic. Between eXpanse and VK-2, Blamsoft has been knocking it out of the park. Same with Synapse, with their incredible Legend and Antidote. On the side of things on my "to try" list, I don't know of any parallel to Softphonics' Wire weirdo piano, and Jiggery Pokery's Animus looks like a beast. And if you're a CV nut, the Reason-centric options out there seem excellent and robust.

I'm so confused by some of the arguments here. For some time, it seemed as though people were complaining that there weren't enough choices at the Prop shop. Now some REs are trickling in with regularity and people are complaining that it's going to somehow water down the shop. There are a bazillion garbage VSTs down there. It doesn't water down the VSTs that are superb. If anything, having a bunch of people play around with making REs will lead to more creativity, more experiments, more weird and interesting options. It will also create a bit of competition, so people won't have to buy the one RE option available, but can try a number of options in the same vein, and thus RE developers will be held to higher standards. These are all good things, as far as I can see.

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friday
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17 May 2018

jayhosking wrote:
17 May 2018
There are a bazillion garbage VSTs down there. It doesn't water down the VSTs that are superb. If anything, having a bunch of people play around with making REs will lead to more creativity, more experiments, more weird and interesting options. It will also create a bit of competition, so people won't have to buy the one RE option available, but can try a number of options in the same vein, and thus RE developers will be held to higher standards. These are all good things, as far as I can see.
well said :thumbs_up:

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selig
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17 May 2018

seqoi wrote:What's the fuss about?

Audiomatic RE is just that. Combinator FX wrapped in a nice GUI.

https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/audioma ... ansformer/

And i don't care! Why? Because it is exactly what it is! A nice gui which is (most importantly) offering me fast workflow and easy to dial in sounds.,..
That’s not exactly correct (answering since that link included information from me).

The development of the patches involved using a single (but complex) custom RE and a Combinator. The Combinator was ONLY used to map controls to the RE (to Rotary 1). The mapped controls became the main knob on ART.

So the only reason a Combinator was used was to provide a simple and familiar UI for the patch creators to map controls to a single knob.

The RE itself was totally custom, with many modules I’ve never heard before (or since) from any Reason devices!

This made it very difficult (if not impossible in some cases) to reproduce these FX using Reason devices. You can come close for some presets, but will totally miss the mark with others.



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avasopht
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17 May 2018

nickb523 wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018

Hmm. I won't answer this outright because who knows what the future holds if i can eventually persuade my friend his evenings won't be wasted. The latest dross doesn't help my argument to his higher creative being.
A lot of 'real' devices (both VST and RE) are adapted from components found here - http://www.musicdsp.org/archive.php

Also a lot of available products (again both VST and RE) can be adapted from - http://www.synthedit.com/

iPhones contain Samsung screens.

What's the difference? ;)

Nick
Yeah, .. there's also a really good emulation of the moog filter there.

Plus there is plenty of code shared in the DSP section of kvr.

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selig
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17 May 2018

nickb523 wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018

Hmm. I won't answer this outright because who knows what the future holds if i can eventually persuade my friend his evenings won't be wasted. The latest dross doesn't help my argument to his higher creative being.
A lot of 'real' devices (both VST and RE) are adapted from components found here - http://www.musicdsp.org/archive.php

Also a lot of available products (again both VST and RE) can be adapted from - http://www.synthedit.com/

iPhones contain Samsung screens.

What's the difference? ;)

Nick
I checked that link (musicdsp), and there are 75 different filters alone. And that's just one category.

Without violating the NDA, I can safely say IDT contains substantially fewer filter options than 75… ;)
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nickb523
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17 May 2018

selig wrote:
17 May 2018
nickb523 wrote:
16 May 2018


A lot of 'real' devices (both VST and RE) are adapted from components found here - http://www.musicdsp.org/archive.php

Also a lot of available products (again both VST and RE) can be adapted from - http://www.synthedit.com/

iPhones contain Samsung screens.

What's the difference? ;)

Nick
I checked that link (musicdsp), and there are 75 different filters alone. And that's just one category.

Without violating the NDA, I can safely say IDT contains substantially fewer filter options than 75… ;)
True, but then isn't that more of a problem with the current version of GE as opposed to the Dev's themselves?

The point i was trying to make is that lots of people are repurposing code they didn't create. It's really not an unusual thing.

Nick :)

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selig
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17 May 2018

nickb523 wrote:
17 May 2018
selig wrote:
17 May 2018


I checked that link (musicdsp), and there are 75 different filters alone. And that's just one category.

Without violating the NDA, I can safely say IDT contains substantially fewer filter options than 75… ;)
True, but then isn't that more of a problem with the current version of GE as opposed to the Dev's themselves?

The point i was trying to make is that lots of people are repurposing code they didn't create. It's really not an unusual thing.

Nick :)
I agree, but I also say it has little to do with this thread because IDT doesn't allow devs to repurpose code like this.
:)
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fieldframe
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17 May 2018

On the plus side, one thing to keep in mind even with single-effect IDT2 devices is that these Gorilla Engine effects aren't included with Reason. A chunk of each IDT sale is going to UJam, so you could look at it as the IDT dev "finishing" what UJam started by designing a workflow and UI around UJam's DSP, making a viable RE out of it. In other words, it's hardly fair to view IDT devs as coasting along on someone else's work when that someone else is getting paid for their part!

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hurricane
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17 May 2018

RE's need to go under some sort of "Official Nintendo Seal of Quality" process to control and maintain quality. I don't think the Props go that far and actually judge the quality of a RE. They should.

If I was Props president, I wouldn't let any shitty, half-assed REs get released.

So, vote for me this November.

I approved this message.
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nickb523
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17 May 2018

hurricane wrote:
17 May 2018
RE's need to go under some sort of "Official Nintendo Seal of Quality"
From a marketing perspective that is a really good idea. Even if it was just a "Recommended" seal put in place over time. :)

"Top of the Props" :lol:

danc
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17 May 2018

jayhosking wrote:
17 May 2018
danc wrote:
17 May 2018

Whereas, in the small swimming pool of REs, I am really struggling to find even one tool that I want/need or even tempted to demo. Everything new just seems to be a not-very-good derivative of something that's better within the VST world.
It sounds as though you're not looking very hard, or maybe just being myopic. Between eXpanse and VK-2, Blamsoft has been knocking it out of the park. Same with Synapse, with their incredible Legend and Antidote. On the side of things on my "to try" list, I don't know of any parallel to Softphonics' Wire weirdo piano, and Jiggery Pokery's Animus looks like a beast. And if you're a CV nut, the Reason-centric options out there seem excellent and robust.

I'm so confused by some of the arguments here. For some time, it seemed as though people were complaining that there weren't enough choices at the Prop shop. Now some REs are trickling in with regularity and people are complaining that it's going to somehow water down the shop. There are a bazillion garbage VSTs down there. It doesn't water down the VSTs that are superb. If anything, having a bunch of people play around with making REs will lead to more creativity, more experiments, more weird and interesting options. It will also create a bit of competition, so people won't have to buy the one RE option available, but can try a number of options in the same vein, and thus RE developers will be held to higher standards. These are all good things, as far as I can see.
I agree that the back catalogue does contain some real strong contenders - like you say eXpanse, VK2, Legend, Antidote, and Jiggery Pokery (especially JPS Harmonic and Steerpike) etc. I've got most of the headliner RE synths and FX and love them all. Although not shouted about often is the ultra-cheap Mixfood Orange and I keep coming back to it as it gives me simple but solid pad + string sounds that I can't get elsewhere.

When I said "not very good" I was referring to the new wave of REs coming through in recent months and very little stands out. Yes - there is a steady stream of something new... but I'd rather have quality not quantity.
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guitfnky
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17 May 2018

nickb523 wrote:
17 May 2018
hurricane wrote:
17 May 2018
RE's need to go under some sort of "Official Nintendo Seal of Quality"
From a marketing perspective that is a really good idea. Even if it was just a "Recommended" seal put in place over time. :)

"Top of the Props" :lol:
just think of all the fun “wtf is Props thinking??!!?/Propellerhead are losing it!!!” threads we could look forward to. 😆
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

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jayhosking
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17 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:
17 May 2018
nickb523 wrote:
17 May 2018


From a marketing perspective that is a really good idea. Even if it was just a "Recommended" seal put in place over time. :)

"Top of the Props" :lol:
just think of all the fun “wtf is Props thinking??!!?/Propellerhead are losing it!!!” threads we could look forward to. 😆
Hah!

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jayhosking
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17 May 2018

danc wrote:
17 May 2018

When I said "not very good" I was referring to the new wave of REs coming through in recent months and very little stands out. Yes - there is a steady stream of something new... but I'd rather have quality not quantity.
Just off the top of my head: Selig's EQ, JP's shimmerverb, the ES-01 (pricey, I know, but some people really dig it), a bunch of the new players... I'd personally say there's plenty of quality coming into the shop.

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