Is there any real value in buying hardware?

Want to talk about music hardware or software that doesn't include Reason?
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Faastwalker
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Location: NSW, Australia

02 May 2018

I posted in this thread a couple of years ago that software is easier to conceal from your significant other. Hardware is a lot harder to get passed. Well, I'm single again now so it's open season on hardware again ;) Already bought a Kilpatrick Phenol. Looking to add some more modular capable & Eurorack devices. I'm not going to go mad. Just a few bits of hardware to add to my mostly software collection. I've always had both but sold most of my hardware when we moved to Australia. Need to get some more now.

For me it's mainly about being more hands on & getting away from looking at the screen. I work in IT so I'm looking at a screen half the day! I get home, sit down to do some music stuff, look at the screen ......... and my mind switches off! Needed some more hardware to mix it up a bit. Ultimately everything revolves around the computer. So I end up back in the screen eventually. But initially I don't have to go near the screen, which is good for me. Sound wise? It's negligible. It's not worth getting in to a debate about anymore.

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4filegate
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02 May 2018

a message reaches us in a simple grain field with binary code - infected with WaveIdea Bitstream 3X for 10 years

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sublunar
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02 May 2018

Faastwalker wrote:
02 May 2018
I work in IT so I'm looking at a screen half the day! I get home, sit down to do some music stuff, look at the screen ......... and my mind switches off! Needed some more hardware to mix it up a bit.
Same. I'd love to get that foot controller that was posted about in this forum recently so I could spend even less time staring at the screen. Hardware just feels good, man.

Lov2sing
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Joined: 15 Nov 2015

02 May 2018

Actually we use hardware all the time but don’t think of it as being the same because we see the software on a screen. Our computer is hardware the only difference is it can compile many things within it mainframe while individual components only do a single function. I have been on both side of the spectrum and think doing a hybrid of the two is better. If I had the money I would have some of the best hardware out there; however the cost of software is cheaper until one ventures to get actual reproductions of hardware in software. My wonder is everything starting to have a computer sound which in its self could be the reason years back sound cards were a big deal? IMO could it be a gereational shift. If computer were out and the opposite had come first would this conversation be in reverse? I think it is a matter of taste and budget. Buy a Protool HD rig and mixing board you may want to think hardware without software could be cheaper. As I see it, all depends and your abilities on either systems. In all I purchased a multi mixer from Soundcraft and it’s to use less plugins and get back to warm recordings without the clutter but that’s me.
We make music for a reason

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Psuper
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02 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
01 May 2018
Psuper wrote:
30 Apr 2018

Try programming any traditional hardware synth, talk about a pain in the ass and overall uninspiring, believe me once the honeymoon period wears off you'll never go back to programming it without use of a PC. I used to know my M1and K2000 fairly well but only a fraction of what it was capable of, and I'd spend an hour to do what it takes 1 minute to do on a PC to get the equivalent sound I'm looking for.

Hardware feels good, hardware looks good, hardware is a pain in every other aspect when comparing it to any well-designed modern software.
Wow we actually completely agree on something :puf_bigsmile:. I started off with software.... well technically I first learned to make music with an MPC, but I never got a deep understanding of what I was doing at the time. Especially though for live performance, I got used to using Mainstage. then I had this genius idea of using hardware for convenience and borrowed a friend's Motif XS rack. Granted it's old tech but it was shocking how much of a headache it was to program and how less capable it was than Mainstage. No wonder Mainstage exists! Hardware synths aren't much different. If it's knob per function, then great, but unless it has recallable preset storage it's a pain for keyboard players who need a different patch for pretty much every song on a setlist. Even for production, if you're the type that works with artists, you don't have time to design every sound, and having to bounce out audio for multitimbral instruments and be concerned about polyphony just isn't worth it to me. But if you're one who's just real keen on character, then go for it.
lol we may get lost in semantics or minor wordings but I think we agree far more often than either of us want to admit!
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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fieldframe
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02 May 2018

For me, it's:

In the box - For composing and producing
Out of the box - For jamming and performing

avasopht
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02 May 2018

fieldframe wrote:
02 May 2018
For me, it's:

In the box - For composing and producing
Out of the box - For jamming and performing
Cosigned!

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raymondh
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02 May 2018

Psuper wrote:
02 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
01 May 2018


Wow we actually completely agree on something :puf_bigsmile:. I started off with software.... well technically I first learned to make music with an MPC, but I never got a deep understanding of what I was doing at the time. Especially though for live performance, I got used to using Mainstage. then I had this genius idea of using hardware for convenience and borrowed a friend's Motif XS rack. Granted it's old tech but it was shocking how much of a headache it was to program and how less capable it was than Mainstage. No wonder Mainstage exists! Hardware synths aren't much different. If it's knob per function, then great, but unless it has recallable preset storage it's a pain for keyboard players who need a different patch for pretty much every song on a setlist. Even for production, if you're the type that works with artists, you don't have time to design every sound, and having to bounce out audio for multitimbral instruments and be concerned about polyphony just isn't worth it to me. But if you're one who's just real keen on character, then go for it.
lol we may get lost in semantics or minor wordings but I think we agree far more often than either of us want to admit!
Depends on what hardware synth you're talking about.

I find programming patches on my System 8 or JX-8P (with PG800) *much* faster than using a mouse on the screen. I can use both hands to change multiple parameters while a sequence is playing, I know exactly what each button, rotary and slider does without having to remember what parameter was mapped to what control, and overall it is so much more tactile and immediate than using either s/w with a mouse, or the mappable sliders on my control surface.

But if I had a DX7 I would totally agree with you :)

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Faastwalker
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03 May 2018

sublunar wrote:
02 May 2018
Faastwalker wrote:
02 May 2018
I work in IT so I'm looking at a screen half the day! I get home, sit down to do some music stuff, look at the screen ......... and my mind switches off! Needed some more hardware to mix it up a bit.
Same. I'd love to get that foot controller that was posted about in this forum recently so I could spend even less time staring at the screen. Hardware just feels good, man.
It does. The tactile interaction is STILL what's missing from software. We've had MIDI controllers for years now. Not many have come close to being the holy grail of hardware control. How many x8 knobs / sliders / buttons controllers have there been? Hundreds! Okay for many jobs. Not so good for controlling synths. There are some controllers with large numbers of knobs. But these tend to offer little in the way of feedback so you quickly loose track of which physical control is mapped to which software parameter, especially over multiple software instruments or FX.

One of the best controllers I've seen is the Push 2 designed for controlling Ableton. It's not cheap but it's a serious hardware controller for Live. Only 8 main physical knobs but there is a detailed LED panel that shows what each knobs is doing & provides real time feedback & other functions. It's very cool. I'd love something like this but with 3 or 4 rows of the 8 knobs with the LED panel under each. That would be an awesome controller for any music software. But the ultimate hardware controller is still something of an enigma.

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sublunar
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04 May 2018

Faastwalker wrote:
03 May 2018
you quickly loose track of which physical control is mapped to which software parameter, especially over multiple software instruments or FX.
THIS. I've always wondered how people managed to get everything sorted without having duct taped notes under every knob..

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Faastwalker
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Location: NSW, Australia

10 May 2018

The subject of MIDI controllers pops up on the latest Sonic Talk during a discussion about the new hardware mapping features of Omnisphere 2.5 EDIT: Actually the video starts a bit past the Omnisphere 2.5 bit so you don't get the context of the discussion. It's worth scrubbing back a few minutes to get an overview of what Omnisphere 2.5 is doing. It's a very interesting solution to the issue of hardware control of software. Although of course this only applies to Omnisphere 2.5 users who have a support hardware synth. So not really a practical solution unless you meet that criteria. But a very cool idea all the same.

Last edited by Faastwalker on 10 May 2018, edited 1 time in total.

jlgrimes
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10 May 2018

Raveshaper wrote:
06 Apr 2016
I have been combing through the 2500 listings in the musical instrument section of my local craigslist, when it occurred to me:

Is there any real value in buying hardware anymore?

I see lots and lots and lots of Soundcraft, Mackie, Allen & Heath, Yamaha, and Tascam mixing boards.
I see lots of hardware compressors, including one that is similar to pultec that uses tubes.
I see lots of synthesizers.
I even see an SSL 900 with DAW and computer included.

If people are selling these things, is it worth having them?
They take up space, they are often redundant, they're "old", etc.
I still want to collect quality gear and grow to incorporate analog equipment into my process, but I just wanted others' opinions on this.

I would argue that people would not seek out things like the Massive Passive if it was easily outdone by a plugin. The gear has that "something" that strictly digital VSTs just don't. But, I have been wrong many times. And plenty of people do amazing things with nothing but a laptop.
Now I'm contradicting myself. What are your thoughts?
Yes/No


For production, I have several Hardware modules and synths. Can't tell you the last time I fired one up. 10 years or so ago, Hardware seemed to still have a slight edge in sound quality, but now for most cases it really doesn't matter and even in some cases the virtual stuff even wins.

I think now too styles of music have changed that benefits virtual synths. Genres such as Dubstep became popular utilizing software instruments. Trap Music has also seemed to evolve from mainly hardware setups to mainly utilizing DAWs such as FL Studio, Live, Reason. Certain popular well known producers now are known to rely almost exclusively on software setups.


That said for live setups Hardware has its advantages. It is a lot more simpler playing a dedicated Hardware keyboard than a midi controller, with laptop and/or maybe audio interface. There is also a convenience factor on being able to have dedicated controls, and quick/easy access to sounds. This seems to be the area digital is focusing heavy into right now with controllers such as Push, Maschine, Akai Advance, Komplete Kontrol. Also whenever SSDs decide to come down in price, will make laptop solutions for live performance even more desirable with quicker loading times of complex sample libraries.



I think as time progresses the differences between hardware and software gets smaller and smaller. I still hear certain things at times but that said there are so many options now, it is a cop out to say you can't get certain hardware sounds using an all digital setup. That would imply a person has tried every plug-in (unlikely) and be a master of all plug-ins. I think you can get pretty close at least to most sounds, to where the average person couldn't tell or even if they could probably wouldn't care.

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amcjen
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10 May 2018

sublunar wrote: But most important to me: As a guitarist with very specific tastes, I've never found an amp sim that sounded good to my ears. I want a specific bite when I chug through a riff, I want specific reactions to my playing dynamics and I want a certain flavor of distortion that only a guitar set up like mine and the amp that I use with specifically procured speakers can produce. Every amp sim I've ever tried has fallen way short. Amp sims are great in a variety of ways, but my guitar/amp/mic hardware makes them entirely unnecessary.
Just curious if you’ve tried a Kemper yet? It’s the first one that has actually fooled me—everything else fell short. (And by “fooled” I mean it sounds so good it has inspired me to play more often.)

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sublunar
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10 May 2018

amcjen wrote:
10 May 2018
sublunar wrote: But most important to me: As a guitarist with very specific tastes, I've never found an amp sim that sounded good to my ears. I want a specific bite when I chug through a riff, I want specific reactions to my playing dynamics and I want a certain flavor of distortion that only a guitar set up like mine and the amp that I use with specifically procured speakers can produce. Every amp sim I've ever tried has fallen way short. Amp sims are great in a variety of ways, but my guitar/amp/mic hardware makes them entirely unnecessary.
Just curious if you’ve tried a Kemper yet? It’s the first one that has actually fooled me—everything else fell short. (And by “fooled” I mean it sounds so good it has inspired me to play more often.)
TLDR; No, i haven't had the opportunity.

Sorry, the below is a hastily contrived rant of sorts. Getting ready to leave work and just typing my feelings as they happen.. :D

-

No and unless someone gives me one for free/loans me one, I never will. The reasons are simple. I 100% like my amp and my speakers. I guarantee it doesn't sound exactly the same as my amp*. And I'm a very feely kind of player. Meaning the dynamics influence my playing to an extent. Harmonics and bends and chugging. I'm a very dynamic player. Not saying I'm any good, just my playing style is dynamic.

*Because, as one example, to make a profile, you have to record it, right? Which means mic placement still matters. The thing I hate most about recording my amp is the amount of time I spend obsessing over mic placement and how miniscule adjustments alter the sound. It takes me a long time of fiddling with mics before I'm happy with the placement. No way in hell is some modeling amp which records a static snapshot of my amp with specific settings going to sound as good live as my amp does on its own. Maybe this would be good enough in the studio but I don't usually like to settle for good enough. If someone wants to donate/loan one of those things I'd be more than willing to try it. I have a good amp, I have good mics and a good analog mixer. I'm immune to Kemper's siren call.

*On top of that, the eq/gain/etc settings would all be different than my real amp. Changes on the Kemper would sound different than changes on my amp. Why would I want that?

I just don't have any interest in investing in a modeler/profiler/whatever when I have a real amp that I love. I'm sure Kempers are decent for what they are and if you don't have an amp you're already invested in and in love with, then it might be the way to go. But not for me. And it doesn't help they're also ugly as hell. Maybe I'm biased but I've been playing guitar 20 years and I've achieved the tone and feel I've always wanted out of my rig, so I'm not at all the target market for Kemper/sims because I love where I'm at now.

Another thing, I appreciate the straight forward simplicity of one amp and one guitar and only a handful of knobs and no software/menus to navigate. The day my amp has software/menus is the day I lose one of the core aspects I enjoy about using a real guitar amp. Then there's the additional distraction of searching for/downloading/installing the countless profiles available... Fuck. That. Shit. Disclaimer: I'm in IT and stare at computers all day. The last thing I need in my life is more computers.

Lastly: can you tell I'm very picky about my tone? I am. I can't stand the stereotypical Marshall JCM 800 sound, for example. Lots of people love it. I don't. I'm not satisfied with whatever (insert guitar hero name here) used if it doesn't make me feel a certain way when I hear it. Most amps simply rub my ears the wrong way.

This is all just my opinion and I want everyone to do what makes them happy. Even if that means using Kemper amps! :puf_bigsmile:

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amcjen
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12 May 2018

Omg sublunar, this is one of the most epic forum responses I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading on here. :)

(And you answered my question!)

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O1B
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12 May 2018

What did you do, Dude? I swear, I thought that was a forever thing... sorry to hear that.
Faastwalker wrote:
02 May 2018
I posted in this thread a couple of years ago that software is easier to conceal from your significant other. Hardware is a lot harder to get passed. Well, I'm single again now so it's open season on hardware again ;) Already bought a Kilpatrick Phenol. Looking to add some more modular capable & Eurorack devices. I'm not going to go mad. Just a few bits of hardware to add to my mostly software collection. ...

Mr. Watts
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16 May 2018

In 2016 I bought my first 2 pieces of hardware after producing only on Reason for years and wanting to get away from the computer screen. I'm 26 years old so when I first started producing music, hardware wasn't really as big as it was in the 90's. I purchased an Akai MPC 2500 for $500 on craigslist and an Ensoniq ASR-X Pro for $250, both in perfect condition. That night I got home and spent hours messing around with the ASR X, which was an enlightening experience as to why some prefer hardware over software. Sampling has always been a bit of a drag when done in a daw from my experience. It kind of makes me anxious staring at a large sample and having to click in ever slice point with a mouse. Using the ASR X, I didn't have this feeling because slicing samples was more intuitive and hands on. Since then I haven't spent much time on the X. The Akai MPC2500 on the other hand has become a center piece in my studio. I can slice a sample and have an idea going in 10 minutes or less on that thing, and still have all the editing control of Reason after tracking out. From 2016 to 2017 I bought a ton of hardware equipment thinking I'd had some sort of revelation. The list goes: Ensoniq ASR-10, E-mu MP7, E-mu Proteus 1000, E-mu Vintage Keys, Akai AX-73, Ensoniq TS-12, Korg MicroKorg, and Arturia Microbrute. I will probably end up selling everything except the MPC2500 and the ASR 10 because some of this gear is damn near obsolete when I have a full fledged daw that does everything and wont bother me with mechanical hardware errors and what not. What I've learned is that its best (in my case) to have at least one hardware device that does a specific job efficiently and also sounds good. The AX-73 is going because if I'm going to be menu diving on a synth, I might as well be programming on a computer. The MP7 is going only because I don't feel like soldering in new rotary encoders. The ASR X is a drag to slice samples on compared to the MPC and ASR 10. The sound modules, well once again menu diving and there are also refills that already have these sounds. I'm going to sell the TS-12 because its just too big for my studio and also menu diving. I sold the microbrute and the microkorg due to being low on funds, but will be looking to buy an analog synth such as the deepmind in the future so that I can have both the analog sound and ease of use with the knobs and all that. I really loved using the Microbrute because of the knob layout, it was more intuitive for me to program on than say Subtractor. When all is said and done my only hardware will be my 2 samplers (MPC/ASR10), a nice analog synth with knob per function, an SP404 for live fx, and an 808 style drum machine for that kind of drum sequencing. The good thing is none of my gear has really lost value on the market, it's only lost value as a means for producing in my studio. My advice is that if you haven't even tried hardware, you will never know if you need it or if it is good for you or not. Although I don't use a lot of the stuff I bought, all of these purchases led me in a direction to know exactly what I need to be productive in the studio, and that is extremely valuable to me.

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normen
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16 May 2018

Yep, the idea of a hardware synth sounds great until you have the first scratching pot. But they are great benchmarks.

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O1B
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17 May 2018

Deterred by a scratchy pot, eh?

oy vey! Here's an easy to follow along tutorial.


Run for the hills!! 'Scratching Pot'!!

Searching and Searching....

normen wrote:
16 May 2018
Yep, the idea of a hardware synth sounds great until you have the first scratching pot. But they are great benchmarks.

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normen
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17 May 2018

O1B wrote:
17 May 2018
Deterred by a scratchy pot, eh?
The WD40-wielding house technician is a good sign for a bad concert yeah ^^

Matt van K
Posts: 44
Joined: 17 May 2018

17 May 2018

Hello,

As a long time User of ,,expensive´´ Hardware i would say:

Hardware NO! except it is an Instrument! No need for expander, no need for modules(except complete Systeminstruments with an own Idea of creating sounds) Not another Monosynth and not another polyphonic Version of ,,this´´ monophonic synth.

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Ahornberg
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17 May 2018

I'm not sure if it's possible tho switch sounds so seamless and easy on a computer (in the video he uses a footswitch to step through a series of prprogrammed sounds with layering, keyboard splits and so on)


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selig
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17 May 2018

amcjen wrote:
sublunar wrote: But most important to me: As a guitarist with very specific tastes, I've never found an amp sim that sounded good to my ears. I want a specific bite when I chug through a riff, I want specific reactions to my playing dynamics and I want a certain flavor of distortion that only a guitar set up like mine and the amp that I use with specifically procured speakers can produce. Every amp sim I've ever tried has fallen way short. Amp sims are great in a variety of ways, but my guitar/amp/mic hardware makes them entirely unnecessary.
Just curious if you’ve tried a Kemper yet? It’s the first one that has actually fooled me—everything else fell short. (And by “fooled” I mean it sounds so good it has inspired me to play more often.)
Kempers are great if you approach guitar from a synth player perspective, e.g. you need more than one sound on a regular basis.

OTOH, if you approach guitar from a piano player’s perspective, then there is one tone, period. All others are sacrilege, and no sample can ever come close to how the “real deal” feels, now or in any foreseeable future. [emoji6]

Horses for courses, as always.

Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Selig Audio, LLC

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normen
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17 May 2018

selig wrote:
17 May 2018
OTOH, if you approach guitar from a piano player’s perspective, then there is one tone, period. All others are sacrilege, and no sample can ever come close to how the “real deal” feels, now or in any foreseeable future. [emoji6]
Well, let's not play as if ALL great musicians are that esoteric :) A great many of them don't care HOW as long as they can feel and play - but obviously the tried way is most of the time the safest. But yeah, there is "clubs" where that is so, in (European) classical music theres also a lot of that going on, an outright fear of electro-acoustics, certain manufacturers being fetishized etc.

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amcjen
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17 May 2018

selig wrote:
amcjen wrote: Just curious if you’ve tried a Kemper yet? It’s the first one that has actually fooled me—everything else fell short. (And by “fooled” I mean it sounds so good it has inspired me to play more often.)
Kempers are great if you approach guitar from a synth player perspective, e.g. you need more than one sound on a regular basis.

OTOH, if you approach guitar from a piano player’s perspective, then there is one tone, period. All others are sacrilege, and no sample can ever come close to how the “real deal” feels, now or in any foreseeable future. [emoji6]

Horses for courses, as always.

Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
I don’t disagree. But I’m finding it harder to stick with the one tone because there are so many available now that sound good to my ears.

I’ve owned an Allen Encore amp for about 10 years (it’s based loosely off of a Fender Super Reverb 4x10, but with master vol and a midrange boost knob, 45W, pretty much the SRV sound). I then bought 6V6 tubes and sometimes swap them out to get a more Fender Deluxe sound (and rebias accordingly).

Now don’t get me wrong, there’s something amazing about feeling the compression and the bloom of the Allen. But I can get so close to the same feeling with the Kemper, that I fall into the joy of playing and forget what amp I’m playing through—I can no longer distinguish if it’s a tube amp with glowing red plates or not.

I’m not really trying to convince anyone of one over another—just was curious if sublunar had played through one and wanted to comment on just how close the two are getting. Sounds like he hasn’t had the chance to try both yet, but eager to hear once he does!

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