Reason 10.1 very slow compared to 10

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kooshan
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

09 May 2018

Ok
I’m sure something is definatalt wrong in this update
Opening heavy projects which were quite fine in vesion 10 , is super slow with lots of crackles and even slow graphics .
I enabled hyper threding
Changed buffer
No help ...

I have to add that even exporting the song takes lots of time( maybe 10x )

I’m not on mac

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EnochLight
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09 May 2018

kooshan wrote:
09 May 2018
Ok
I’m sure something is definatalt wrong in this update
Opening heavy projects which were quite fine in vesion 10 , is super slow with lots of crackles and even slow graphics .
I enabled hyper threding
Changed buffer
No help ...

I have to add that even exporting the song takes lots of time( maybe 10x )

I’m not on mac
Weird. I'm not experiencing this at all (on Windows 10 Pro, an old i7 3770k CPU, 16 GB of RAM). Maybe you're on to something - did you reach out to tech support?

https://help.propellerheads.se/hc/en-us ... b8be247c9f
Last edited by EnochLight on 09 May 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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antic604

09 May 2018

Weird, it was actually smoother for me (latest Win10, Surface Pro 4 i7)

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Rason
Posts: 134
Joined: 10 Dec 2015

09 May 2018

I havent checked yet but some of my open projects are very close to dsp limit. I guess there is no way back to 10.0? Does anyone still have the 10.0. instalation in computer?

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 2908
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

09 May 2018

They changed the default state of hyperthreading. Could be that? Funny though, I was working with a busy project last night (Kontakt, Superior Drummer, multiple POD Farms) and then realised I was at 64 samples and it was all still fine. Weird!

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cognitive
Posts: 177
Joined: 25 Apr 2018
Location: Los Angeles

09 May 2018

If anything, I'm getting better performance from R10.1

A fully produced project that was hitting 2 or 3 marks on the DSP meter is now sitting solidly on the bottom mark, even during the heavy synth, vocals and effects chorus.

This is kind of crazy considering I have 30 tracks with 5 Europas, 2 instances of The Legend, 2 eXpanses, 4 Grains, 2 Thors, 1 Radical Keys, a Kong, 2 Redrums, 2 Dr. Octo Rex, plus all the audio tracks and vocal channel insert fx (lots of stuff going on here with compressors, audiomatics, neptunes, chenille choruses, etc.) and the of course all the channel strip EQs/dynamics/send fx/mastering fx. Oh, and side-chain compression, can't forget about that.

Not all channels are "hot" at once, but the chorus of the song is certainly dense enough that it SHOULD be causing at least a LITTLE spiking on the meter. Nope. Not at all.

My system is a 4Ghz i7-6700K w 8GB RAM, so it is reasonably powerful. But still, to have such a complex project use so little in terms of CPU resources is pretty amazing.

EDIT: I looked a little closer at the second chorus of the song, and when both instances of The Legend kick in for a harmonized solo (over all the other stuff going on), the meter goes to 2 marks instead of 1. Still, amazing overall CPU performance considering all the modeling going on in The Legend.

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C//AZM
Posts: 366
Joined: 20 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

I'm, getting worse performance. Two weeks ago I was mixing a song on a 2011mac mini i5 16g ram and all was well. Now as I revisit that song with 10.1 it stutters and hiccups more and actually stopped. Nothing changed with this computer or the settings except 10.1, as a matter of fact, prior to playing this song, I hadn't even turned this comp on except to upgrade Reason. Hyperthreading was already off and it is worse with hyper threading on. Have to crank up the buffer to get any use out of it.

kooshan
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

C//AZM wrote:
15 May 2018
I'm, getting worse performance. Two weeks ago I was mixing a song on a 2011mac mini i5 16g ram and all was well. Now as I revisit that song with 10.1 it stutters and hiccups more and actually stopped. Nothing changed with this computer or the settings except 10.1, as a matter of fact, prior to playing this song, I hadn't even turned this comp on except to upgrade Reason. Hyperthreading was already off and it is worse with hyper threading on. Have to crank up the buffer to get any use out of it.
I’m tired of all these cpu issues in Reason. It’s getting worse with each update .propellerheads doesn’t care at all . I actually believe they can’t solve it . Anf It doesn’t get better by upgrading pc/mac .maybe it’s time to move on to a another daw and get rid of all these ...

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EnochLight
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15 May 2018

kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018
I’m tired of all these cpu issues in Reason. It’s getting worse with each update .propellerheads doesn’t care at all . I actually believe they can’t solve it . Anf It doesn’t get better by upgrading pc/mac .maybe it’s time to move on to a another daw and get rid of all these ...
It would appear you don't know anything about the recent blog post by Propellerhead:

https://www.propellerheads.se/blog/reason-101-is-here

Allow me:
“So, what about performance?” I hear you ask. We are aware of some performance issues with VSTs, and trust me, we’re working hard to adress them. Good news is it’s going really well! But it’s a complex project that requires lots of time for testing. I can’t give you a date at the moment, but this performance optimization will be available as a free update for all Reason 10 owners later this year.
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madmacman
Posts: 786
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

EnochLight wrote:
15 May 2018

It would appear you don't know anything about the recent blog post by Propellerhead:

https://www.propellerheads.se/blog/reason-101-is-here
While the blog post by Mattias is a very good thing (and the openess of Props long awaited), it doesn't explain why some users, but not all, have even worse experience with 10.1 after 10.0 being bad already.

I don't want to be negative here (and Mattias deserves all the support for changing company behavior), but this is not encouraging for buying upgrade NOW and (presumably) have another 6-8 months hassle with "Computer too slow" issues until the long anticipated performance support update arrives.

Either this was a strange coincidence with release of 10.1 (can happen), or the introduction of SDK3 eats up some more CPU cycles again, making the entire system a tiny bit more inefficient.

Who knows, just sayin.

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EnochLight
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15 May 2018

madmacman wrote:
15 May 2018
While the blog post by Mattias is a very good thing (and the openess of Props long awaited), it doesn't explain why some users, but not all, have even worse experience with 10.1 after 10.0 being bad already.
Oh totally. I was just responding to the comment:
"propellerheads doesn’t care at all . I actually believe they can’t solve it".
Of course they care (it's their flagship product, after all), and they publicly stated that progress is being made. It's clearly a larger problem to solve that just a quick patch, though.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

kooshan
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

EnochLight wrote:
15 May 2018
madmacman wrote:
15 May 2018
While the blog post by Mattias is a very good thing (and the openess of Props long awaited), it doesn't explain why some users, but not all, have even worse experience with 10.1 after 10.0 being bad already.
Oh totally. I was just responding to the comment:
"propellerheads doesn’t care at all . I actually believe they can’t solve it".
Of course they care (it's their flagship product, after all), and they publicly stated that progress is being made. It's clearly a larger problem to solve that just a quick patch, though.
It can`t be a quick patch I know .but really how much time should something as important as this take to get fixed ? I`m dealing with dsp overloads since version 8 (rack extentions) and my Pc had been always the best as someone could have bought .and now it`s getting worse whatever they do.
obviously I think something is wrong in the code which they have no idea how to fix . otherwise it shouldn`t have taken this long time . they are just progressing in the wrong way .
I actually hope they finally fix this , but not really 6 months 1 year later .

kooshan
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

I have to add that I teach Reason In my country where I live .nearly all my students complain about the famous "computer too slow " message, while they have ZERO problem with any other daw .

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sublunar
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15 May 2018

cognitive wrote:
09 May 2018
If anything, I'm getting better performance from R10.1
Same. If you're having issues, then contact support. I've noticed better performance from 10.1 than previous versions.

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EnochLight
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15 May 2018

kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018
It can`t be a quick patch I know .but really how much time should something as important as this take to get fixed ? I`m dealing with dsp overloads since version 8 (rack extentions) and my Pc had been always the best as someone could have bought .and now it`s getting worse whatever they do.
obviously I think something is wrong in the code which they have no idea how to fix . otherwise it shouldn`t have taken this long time . they are just progressing in the wrong way .
Or, the amount of complaints they get from "computer too slow" or other performance-related issues were less than the amount of feature requests they implemented. It's all relative: I'm using 10.1 on a 7 year old machine that is definitely not top of its class right now, and I can work just fine. Do I want better performance? Hell yeah, but it's not like I can't get shit done.
kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018
I actually hope they finally fix this , but not really 6 months 1 year later .
Well, I have news for you: of course performance will be improved, but "end of the year" could be December 2018 (6-7 months from now). We'll see. If it takes until next year, that'll suck bad - but I'd rather it be done right than not at all.
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kooshan
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

EnochLight wrote:
15 May 2018
kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018
It can`t be a quick patch I know .but really how much time should something as important as this take to get fixed ? I`m dealing with dsp overloads since version 8 (rack extentions) and my Pc had been always the best as someone could have bought .and now it`s getting worse whatever they do.
obviously I think something is wrong in the code which they have no idea how to fix . otherwise it shouldn`t have taken this long time . they are just progressing in the wrong way .
Or, the amount of complaints they get from "computer too slow" or other performance-related issues were less than the amount of feature requests they implemented. It's all relative: I'm using 10.1 on a 7 year old machine that is definitely not top of its class right now, and I can work just fine. Do I want better performance? Hell yeah, but it's not like I can't get shit done.
kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018
I actually hope they finally fix this , but not really 6 months 1 year later .
Well, I have news for you: of course performance will be improved, but "end of the year" could be December 2018 (6-7 months from now). We'll see. If it takes until next year, that'll suck bad - but I'd rather it be done right than not at all.
You’re right about the great features added to Reason .but nothing is as important as the dsp usage .I have no idea how you use reason( the amount of racks, which plugins ...) but as you know it’s not just me who complains here . Reason is the only music software with dsp problems now .
I still have hope though.

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EnochLight
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15 May 2018

kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018
You’re right about the great features added to Reason .but nothing is as important as the dsp usage .I have no idea how you use reason( the amount of racks, which plugins ...) but as you know it’s not just me who complains here . Reason is the only music software with dsp problems now .
I still have hope though.
Oh totally. I freely acknowledge performance needs to be improved. I think my patience just tends to run unusually longer than most since I’ve been used to their progress rate for the past 18 years. Would be great to see them step up the pace, though.
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NekujaK
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15 May 2018

I have a dedicated professionally-built video/audio production PC that's a total screamer and customized for processing media of all types. It can handle Reason projects of average size with a fair amount of VSTs just fine, but ever since Reason 9.5, large or VST-intensive projects quickly bring it to its knees.

I've been able to work around many, but not all, of Reason's performance issues by maxing out the ASIO buffer, but the big problem for me is that it's unprofessional and embarrassing when Reason keeps choking in front of clients. Not only does it make Reason look bad, but it makes my studio look inadequate. I've already had to jump thru several hoops to convince clients to have their projects mixed in Reason, as opposed to going to a Pro Tools studio, and then when Reason constantly chokes in front of them, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence and only furthers the impression that Reason is just a "toy".

Reason can choke in some of the most unexpected and inconvenient places. For example, if I'm fixing a vocal in the Pitch Editor. Every time I make a pitch correction to a note or phrase, Reason gives the "computer too slow" message the first time I try to playback the change. That gets annoying really fast.

I totally understand that improving Reason's performance is not a quick or easy fix. Performance issues typically involve core foundational code, and any tweaks or changes at that level that can have far reaching and unintended ripple effects throughout the entire program, so intensive testing is required, which can be very time-consuming and the only way to do it right. I'm willing to wait, but at the same time, Reason's current performance problems are making it difficult for me to acquire and retain clients. This weeekend, I even started looking into getting a Pro Tools license :shock: Oh say it isn't so.... :o
wreaking havoc with :reason: since 2.5
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RandyEspoda
Posts: 275
Joined: 14 Mar 2017

15 May 2018

kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018

but really how much time should something as important as this take to get fixed ?
Well...have you considered the fact that all most (if not all) major daws have had more than a decade time to develop fixes and improvements for VST performance ? Some even 'decadeS'...props are at it since last year. Why not just giving them a break and practice a little more patience, at least until they release their fixes in the next (FREE !) update ?

All I have seen lately from props, besides the 129 for upgrade off course, is FREE this, FREE that, and so on.
I am nothing but grateful for what props have shown us in the past 2 years, and what is still to come in the coming years, because it seems they are only stepping up the gears now. I'd say we 'let them', and see what happens. ;)

PGR
Posts: 95
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

This is two different questions.
1. Performance issues with VST
2. Reason 10.1 generally slower than 10.0

I think we all agree with question one and hopefully an update is coming soon. For question two, not on my computer

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Raveshaper
Posts: 1089
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15 May 2018

Reason is locked to a code base dating back to the first release of version 1. This means that new code written into the program has to translate file structure and data that is nearly 20 years old. That stuff may have been clever back then but is long since outdated. Sure, there is new code, but it is locked into a backward compatible tunnel vision. Limitations in version 1 still apply at some fundamental level, which would explain why updates are almost always flashy new devices and not workflow related.

Another problem here is that the way the architecture was written, audio processing, automation, and CV are effectively all handled together. Audio is throttled according to how many potential CV signals there are, even if they aren't in use. What that means is the more you load, the more "room" is set aside for CV data even if it isn't being used. So at its very heart the app is throttled by the back panels. You can't run CV on a separate cpu core and speed up audio processing performance, for example. The very thing that makes it unique is also its downfall.

The last thing to keep in mind is that the addition of VST caused some challenges for stability. The cause of old projects running slower is stock devices had their resource use raised, perhaps by enough to match that of the average VST. You can think of it in terms of each device using areas of memory and if the edge of a devices memory allocation is the wrong size, problems can happen. This is just a guess but it's the only explanation for how projects in 7 now are unplayable in 9+.

The takeaway here is that the app is throttled at its heart and performance issues are, barring a radical rewrite from line 1 of the entire app, unfixable. So there's the bag of bricks. Putting it down or carrying it is up to you.
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C//AZM
Posts: 366
Joined: 20 Jan 2015

15 May 2018

None of my problems are due to VST. These are Midi with Reason REs plus Antidote and Zero

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

15 May 2018

cognitive wrote:
09 May 2018
If anything, I'm getting better performance from R10.1

A fully produced project that was hitting 2 or 3 marks on the DSP meter is now sitting solidly on the bottom mark, even during the heavy synth, vocals and effects chorus.

This is kind of crazy considering I have 30 tracks with 5 Europas, 2 instances of The Legend, 2 eXpanses, 4 Grains, 2 Thors, 1 Radical Keys, a Kong, 2 Redrums, 2 Dr. Octo Rex, plus all the audio tracks and vocal channel insert fx (lots of stuff going on here with compressors, audiomatics, neptunes, chenille choruses, etc.) and the of course all the channel strip EQs/dynamics/send fx/mastering fx. Oh, and side-chain compression, can't forget about that.

Not all channels are "hot" at once, but the chorus of the song is certainly dense enough that it SHOULD be causing at least a LITTLE spiking on the meter. Nope. Not at all.

My system is a 4Ghz i7-6700K w 8GB RAM, so it is reasonably powerful. But still, to have such a complex project use so little in terms of CPU resources is pretty amazing.

EDIT: I looked a little closer at the second chorus of the song, and when both instances of The Legend kick in for a harmonized solo (over all the other stuff going on), the meter goes to 2 marks instead of 1. Still, amazing overall CPU performance considering all the modeling going on in The Legend.
It sounds like a lot of Reason devices with a few peppered RE/VST units in there.

I created a track with 144 Europas all EQ/Comp/Gate/Filters on in the channel strip....and was barely at 1/2 at 128 samples. Granted, I’m OC’ed to 4.4GHz (water cooler) but still, I am so incredibly impressed by how efficient the native DSP is inside Reason.

Back on-topic: performance improved for me. Tracks that popped and crackled unless I was at 1024 samples can now play fine at 512. It works great for me.
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SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

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kooshan
Posts: 95
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

16 May 2018

RandyEspoda wrote:
15 May 2018
kooshan wrote:
15 May 2018

but really how much time should something as important as this take to get fixed ?
Well...have you considered the fact that all most (if not all) major daws have had more than a decade time to develop fixes and improvements for VST performance ? Some even 'decadeS'...props are at it since last year. Why not just giving them a break and practice a little more patience, at least until they release their fixes in the next (FREE !) update ?

All I have seen lately from props, besides the 129 for upgrade off course, is FREE this, FREE that, and so on.
I am nothing but grateful for what props have shown us in the past 2 years, and what is still to come in the coming years, because it seems they are only stepping up the gears now. I'd say we 'let them', and see what happens. ;)
I agree that other daws have evolved in decades and Reason is just at the starting point . But this situation about dsp usage had been here since the introduction of Re ‘s . You need a multiband compressor? Yes it’s there ( flower audio 4 d) but just one instance will eat your cpu . There are lots of Re’s like that . What I mean is everything outside Reason was not cpu efficient( I know there are lots of usefull Re’s which don’t have dsp issue)
Reason is good until you use third party plugins
. And we are in 2018 . Do we really have to deal with dsp ?

RandyEspoda
Posts: 275
Joined: 14 Mar 2017

16 May 2018

kooshan wrote:
16 May 2018
RandyEspoda wrote:
15 May 2018


Well...have you considered the fact that all most (if not all) major daws have had more than a decade time to develop fixes and improvements for VST performance ? Some even 'decadeS'...props are at it since last year. Why not just giving them a break and practice a little more patience, at least until they release their fixes in the next (FREE !) update ?

All I have seen lately from props, besides the 129 for upgrade off course, is FREE this, FREE that, and so on.
I am nothing but grateful for what props have shown us in the past 2 years, and what is still to come in the coming years, because it seems they are only stepping up the gears now. I'd say we 'let them', and see what happens. ;)
I agree that other daws have evolved in decades and Reason is just at the starting point . But this situation about dsp usage had been here since the introduction of Re ‘s . You need a multiband compressor? Yes it’s there ( flower audio 4 d) but just one instance will eat your cpu . There are lots of Re’s like that . What I mean is everything outside Reason was not cpu efficient( I know there are lots of usefull Re’s which don’t have dsp issue)
Reason is good until you use third party plugins
. And we are in 2018 . Do we really have to deal with dsp ?
Actually you don't, and can choose another daw that does not have dsp issues.
And while I get your remark, in the vst world there are those well-known dsp eaters too, like f.e. U-He's Diva ? Hmmm ?
Take that thing into any daw, and it'll be able to easily cripple it. Just sayin that DSP is still an issue for any daw, caused by VSTs just like also being caused by RE's (and VSTs) in Reason...It just isn't limited to reason alone, but reason now does have AND vst, AND REs, so that's a double threat :)

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