Bad acoustics are great

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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2018

Many people check their mixes on iPhone earplugs, in the car, on super small near field speakers, or an old getto blaster.

The car is so often mentioned by anyone doing hiphop. If it sounded good in the car it was good. Weird thing though: the car is small and acoustic people always say you need a large room to mix or master. Low end needs length or else it starts resonating, right?

So many people are using bad equipment with bad acoustics to mix. I can understand this. If you know how good stuff sound with that stuff you might be able to achieve it yourself.

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O1B
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06 Apr 2018

... from a closet to the entire universe, Marco...
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Small ROOM Acoustics
Have you ever sung in a bathroom? Some notes seem to make the whole room resonate. In fact, this is exactly what happens. This note you are singing is probably one of the room’s standing waves. Standing wave is a low frequency resonance that takes place between two opposite walls as the reflected wave interferes constructively with the incident wave. The resonant frequency depends on the distance between the two walls.
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoust ... coustics-1

While "low end need length," that length can be achieved by a standing wave. The car's interior (trunk, speaker placement, velour) is Great for Standing Waves.

And dont forget the Trunk! or the Foot area! or under the Hood.
Bass Traps.

Say it with me now...: Incident, Reflected, and a Resonant Resultant
You've got some reading to do.

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Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Weird thing though: the car is small and acoustic people always say you need a large room to mix or master. Low end needs length or else it starts resonating, right?
'good stuff' ..? who's to say what's good stuff?
So many people are using bad equipment with bad acoustics to mix. I can understand this. If you know how good stuff sound with that stuff you might be able to achieve it yourself.
Last edited by O1B on 06 Apr 2018, edited 2 times in total.

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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2018

yes, and Standing Waves is bad according to the acoustics geniuses, right?

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O1B
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06 Apr 2018

Link, pls.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
yes, and Standing Waves is bad according to the acoustics geniuses, right?

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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2018

O1B wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Link, pls.
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
yes, and Standing Waves is bad according to the acoustics geniuses, right?
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... -treatment

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O1B
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06 Apr 2018

Dude, excerpt the relevant passage(s) pls. normal courtesy.

We read a lot here. Citations help us to know if it's relevant to the conversation on Acoustics in a CAR or a topic on Acoustic Treatment.

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Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
O1B wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Link, pls.

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... -treatment

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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2018

This makes no sense.

I give up.

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O1B
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06 Apr 2018

Ask for a citation, as is in all my responses.. This is what you say?

DO you know the Eminem Ford Escost story?... (1min56sec, Video)
he makes PRETTY STRONG BEATS.

Don't give up on knowledge. And if your response is EMPTY, acknowledge it.


Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
This makes no sense.

I give up.

RobC
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06 Apr 2018

Every consumer sound system is going to have its own characteristics. In my opinion, even if it sounds good on the toilet radio, that can't determine a good sound.

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esselfortium
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06 Apr 2018

It's useful to test your music in the car, because you presumably have listened to a lot of music in the car and have an expectation for how things are supposed to sound there. Your car stereo isn't a set of mixing monitors to actually work on, just another listening environment to double-check in to make sure you haven't missed anything.

When a note is creating sharp resonance in my car that I don't normally notice in other music, whether that's from standing waves or anything else, it tells me that I've done something a bit funny in the mix.
Sarah Mancuso
My music: Future Human

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selig
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06 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
yes, and Standing Waves is bad according to the acoustics geniuses, right?
Correct!
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selig
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06 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Many people check their mixes on iPhone earplugs, in the car, on super small near field speakers, or an old getto blaster.

The car is so often mentioned by anyone doing hiphop. If it sounded good in the car it was good. Weird thing though: the car is small and acoustic people always say you need a large room to mix or master.…
These are two completely different things. Yes, people CHECK their mixes on all sorts of "crappy" systems (as a "real world" check).
AND yes, you need a room larger than a car to mix and master in.

These are not at all mutually exclusive statements IMO!
:)

[as an additional note, "good" sounding rooms are traditionally for compatibility when you move from studio to studio. Many engineer move from room to room on different projects, many bands use more than one room for a project. They don't have as much time to "learn the room". So it makes total sense to have some common ground with regards to what you're hearing.

Home studios, producer studios, etc. are a room that IF there are flaws, you can learn them and work around them over time because you never work outside of your 'space'. And so in this case, some acoustic flaws can be easily learned because you have all the time in the world to learn them!

Having worked in plenty of "flawed" rooms, and a few amazing "perfect" rooms, I can say without any reservations I prefer the "perfect" room because you just MIX in them - you don't need to check your mixes as often, you don't need to compensate or second guess your mix, etc. It saves time, it reduces anxiety, and let's you choose how the mix sounds - it you want a bright mix, mix it bright, if you want big low end, go for big low end. It's truly an amazing experience everyone should have at least once in their lives because if nothing else, it trains your ears to better identify the issues you'll face when you work in all the other less-than-perfect rooms in your life!]
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normen
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06 Apr 2018

"Standing waves" don't quite happen in cars as people have found out. I can look into finding that AES paper and looking up more specific information if any1 is interested, can't post it here though. Indeed the car seems to be uniquely well suited to check back mixes. Obviously it's very hard to make a linear response at all, especially over a somewhat wide area (to move your head in) so don't try to judge the overall *amount* of bass or mids in your car.

As for it being "bad" or "good" - it just is. It is bad for SOME things, say if you want to mix bass at a frequency that your room modes simply delete then thats bad, I think we can all agree right? =)

On the other hand I have done so many "bad" things on stage that in the context of things were good. Like pointing a speaker directly to a wall, kicking in its cone, having a microphone touch the snare membrane, letting output amps clip... :)

RobC
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06 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
yes, and Standing Waves is bad according to the acoustics geniuses, right?
Correct!
While some things can be equalized, there's no way to non-physically stop 'reverberations'.

Makes me wonder... They say, closed headphones are bad, because some frequencies resonate in our ears, however, the "reverberation" tail, or release, or whatever shouldn't be that much of a problem, thus should be easy to equalize. (Yeah, the headphone pair should still be open-back, hehe.)

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selig
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06 Apr 2018

RobC wrote:
06 Apr 2018
selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018


Correct!
While some things can be equalized, there's no way to non-physically stop 'reverberations'.

Makes me wonder... They say, closed headphones are bad, because some frequencies resonate in our ears, however, the "reverberation" tail, or release, or whatever shouldn't be that much of a problem, thus should be easy to equalize. (Yeah, the headphone pair should still be open-back, hehe.)
For the most part, headphones don't have this problem because for one, any resonances that do exist are not that low, and thus any modal ringing will be extremely short. And for another, headphones are unique in that the "space" they are designed for is very predictable. With studio monitors, the designers don't have any control over the space in which they will be placed. But headphones are always almost the exact same distance from the listener with almost the exact same "volume" of space to deal with, thus many of the traditional variables are almost totally removed!
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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018
RobC wrote:
06 Apr 2018


While some things can be equalized, there's no way to non-physically stop 'reverberations'.

Makes me wonder... They say, closed headphones are bad, because some frequencies resonate in our ears, however, the "reverberation" tail, or release, or whatever shouldn't be that much of a problem, thus should be easy to equalize. (Yeah, the headphone pair should still be open-back, hehe.)
For the most part, headphones don't have this problem because for one, any resonances that do exist are not that low, and thus any modal ringing will be extremely short. And for another, headphones are unique in that the "space" they are designed for is very predictable. With studio monitors, the designers don't have any control over the space in which they will be placed. But headphones are always almost the exact same distance from the listener with almost the exact same "volume" of space to deal with, thus many of the traditional variables are almost totally removed!
Yes headphones are perfect. I am using Sennheiser HD600 for mixing. It shoes detail no speaker has ever shown me.

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selig
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06 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018


For the most part, headphones don't have this problem because for one, any resonances that do exist are not that low, and thus any modal ringing will be extremely short. And for another, headphones are unique in that the "space" they are designed for is very predictable. With studio monitors, the designers don't have any control over the space in which they will be placed. But headphones are always almost the exact same distance from the listener with almost the exact same "volume" of space to deal with, thus many of the traditional variables are almost totally removed!
Yes headphones are perfect. I am using Sennheiser HD600 for mixing. It shoes detail no speaker has ever shown me.
Maybe TOO perfect, which can make them great for editing IMO because of the exposed details and isolation from room reflections etc., but less so for mixing IMO - could be you've not yet experienced mixing in a great sounding room? Such an experience could very possibly change your opinion of headphones vs speakers for mixing…and in that context headphones become a workaround rather than an ideal solution.

One thing I actually use phones for in less than ideal rooms is checking low end, because as opposed to just about every other aspect of mixing which I can still work with even in a less than ideal room, the one thing phones will typically reveal is a fairly honest low end (depending on the phones, of course).
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normen
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06 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Maybe TOO perfect, which can make them great for editing IMO because of the exposed details and isolation from room reflections etc., but less so for mixing IMO - could be you've not yet experienced mixing in a great sounding room? Such an experience could very possibly change your opinion of headphones vs speakers for mixing…and in that context headphones become a workaround rather than an ideal solution.

One thing I actually use phones for in less than ideal rooms is checking low end, because as opposed to just about every other aspect of mixing which I can still work with even in a less than ideal room, the one thing phones will typically reveal is a fairly honest low end (depending on the phones, of course).
Yeah, two things stand out to me that you (or rather I) can't really judge properly on headphones: One is dynamics, or rather over-compression, and the other is phase issues between the channels. On headphones both sound more like a creative effect while on speakers they both sound like problems :)

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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
06 Apr 2018
selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Maybe TOO perfect, which can make them great for editing IMO because of the exposed details and isolation from room reflections etc., but less so for mixing IMO - could be you've not yet experienced mixing in a great sounding room? Such an experience could very possibly change your opinion of headphones vs speakers for mixing…and in that context headphones become a workaround rather than an ideal solution.

One thing I actually use phones for in less than ideal rooms is checking low end, because as opposed to just about every other aspect of mixing which I can still work with even in a less than ideal room, the one thing phones will typically reveal is a fairly honest low end (depending on the phones, of course).
Yeah, two things stand out to me that you (or rather I) can't really judge properly on headphones: One is dynamics, or rather over-compression, and the other is phase issues between the channels. On headphones both sound more like a creative effect while on speakers they both sound like problems :)
for me it's the other way around. nearfield in a room cover up dynamics I will hear on headphones.

for me the sound in a room is very forgiven. floating air. on headphones it is very pure.

guitar amps can sound terrible on headphones. so you need a very open sounding one to get the true tones, to my ears. I can easily detect bad guitar sound on my HD600. on my Equator nesrfields it is more forgiven.

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selig
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06 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
normen wrote:
06 Apr 2018


Yeah, two things stand out to me that you (or rather I) can't really judge properly on headphones: One is dynamics, or rather over-compression, and the other is phase issues between the channels. On headphones both sound more like a creative effect while on speakers they both sound like problems :)
for me it's the other way around. nearfield in a room cover up dynamics I will hear on headphones.

for me the sound in a room is very forgiven. floating air. on headphones it is very pure.

guitar amps can sound terrible on headphones. so you need a very open sounding one to get the true tones, to my ears. I can easily detect bad guitar sound on my HD600. on my Equator nesrfields it is more forgiven.
Comparing a great pair of headphones with some nearfields in an average room isn't necessarily a fair comparison. But if those are your only choices and it works for you, that's all that really matters IMO.

Speaking strictly for myself, my mixes on speakers always translate great to phones, while my mixes on phones hardly ever translate well to speakers. But that COULD be because I learned to mix in decent rooms on speakers - even then, I've spent a fair amount of my life trying to make great headphone mixes for musicians while tracking, so go figure…
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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018


for me it's the other way around. nearfield in a room cover up dynamics I will hear on headphones.

for me the sound in a room is very forgiven. floating air. on headphones it is very pure.

guitar amps can sound terrible on headphones. so you need a very open sounding one to get the true tones, to my ears. I can easily detect bad guitar sound on my HD600. on my Equator nesrfields it is more forgiven.
Comparing a great pair of headphones with some nearfields in an average room isn't necessarily a fair comparison. But if those are your only choices and it works for you, that's all that really matters IMO.

Speaking strictly for myself, my mixes on speakers always translate great to phones, while my mixes on phones hardly ever translate well to speakers. But that COULD be because I learned to mix in decent rooms on speakers - even then, I've spent a fair amount of my life trying to make great headphone mixes for musicians while tracking, so go figure…
I think that everything works.

Just know your tools, that's all. There's not bad or wrong.

I know a story of Ken Scott. Engineer of the Beatles, Bowie, you name it. He went to Jamaica and wondered how they got that bass so loud. He found out that the major studio had monitors that seriously lacked bass.

The audience always thinks it should be like that. That everything was intentional :)

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Timmy Crowne
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06 Apr 2018

It's good to mix with the monitor volume down often too, especially if the room is seriously flawed. Get things working well together at a low level. Turn it up to get pumped, then drop back down into the trenches. It helps me avoid ear fatigue and forces me to make the big decisions on what instruments get priority. Perspective is tough to have, especially when mixing our own work.

RobC
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06 Apr 2018

selig wrote:
06 Apr 2018
For the most part, headphones don't have this problem because for one, any resonances that do exist are not that low, and thus any modal ringing will be extremely short. And for another, headphones are unique in that the "space" they are designed for is very predictable. With studio monitors, the designers don't have any control over the space in which they will be placed. But headphones are always almost the exact same distance from the listener with almost the exact same "volume" of space to deal with, thus many of the traditional variables are almost totally removed!
Thank god, I was kind of worried, not even headphones could escape the problems.
Of course, there's a reason why listening to lower frequencies in isolation, comes in handy. No doubt, it's easier to work with bass frequencies on a proper speaker system. But it's not impossible on headphones either. - Of course, one does certainly need to calibrate, and know how to place them on their head, etc. It's fun though, that some head turning/tilting is enough if you want to listen more closely to bass. Not gonna start a speaker vs. headphone war, though. Each have their benefits and disadvantages, specific uses; neither is perfect. Combined use is the best. (Not exactly at the same time, duh!)

RobC
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06 Apr 2018

normen wrote:
06 Apr 2018
Yeah, two things stand out to me that you (or rather I) can't really judge properly on headphones: One is dynamics, or rather over-compression, and the other is phase issues between the channels. On headphones both sound more like a creative effect while on speakers they both sound like problems :)
I heard, different headphones have different dynamics, stereo recreation, etc.

For phase, I have a combinator, where MClass Stereo Imager sums both channels with a knob; and a summing button - to see how it will work, going to mono. There are some pretty awesome effects, I'll make a topic about in the near future. (Gotta $h!t some more bricks, so my Tetris lines clear up first. xD)

My philosophy is that ears are first, thus headphone listening. Never gonna do total phase inversion on one channel (I think) - at least not for important sounds in a songs.

RobC
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06 Apr 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
06 Apr 2018
I can easily detect bad guitar sound on my HD600.
I read in reviews, they aren't exactly flat response headphones. Did you calibrate them for your hearing?

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