Sample-accurate scratching with Grain - Yes/No?

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
RobC
Posts: 1229
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 23 Mar 2018

I've been digging the manual for info, googling, searching the forum (everyone was scratching surfaces and various body parts); but in the end: I'm looking for at least a somewhat realistic scratching possibility.

I tried the tape-freeze combo and manually modulating the "position" (resulting in some glitchy clicking sounds at zero speed), and start position (but that only works with some speed, more than zero, resulting in some dragging effect, and tops near scratch-like effect).

Could it be that it's not possible to do with grain - and that I try using it for something it wasn't designed for? (I hope I'm just unlucky with creating at least Virtual DJ and alike software scratching effect.)

So, anybody know the answer?

EdGrip
Posts: 2223
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

Post 23 Mar 2018

Still think there's a huge hole in the market for a neat mod-wheel scratching plugin.

RobC
Posts: 1229
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 23 Mar 2018

Considering Grain's engine, it should be one of the basic things it should be capable of doing. - Unless 'I' just don't see the solution how to do it.

User avatar
Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

Post 24 Mar 2018

I doubt it with Grain, I tried doing several creative things with it during beta and found it was limited in many ways. Have to turn the precision up to max to get it to even be remotely close when recording any positioning in Grain.

I made a fairly in-depth thread on wanting to "Play" the Sample in Grain, i.e hitting a key and it plays a particular defined spot in the sample, and its not possible. Mangle its so easy and one of the more common things I use it for. Lots of options missing from Grain once you dig deep and see what other granular products can do.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

RobC
Posts: 1229
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 24 Mar 2018

Aww, man - seems like they give a good flavor of everything, but leave out the icing... :( Sadly, I look for deeper possibilities, and usually exactly what I'm looking for, is missing. xD Tough luck...

User avatar
EnochLight
Moderator
Posts: 7273
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Useless Moderator

Post 24 Mar 2018

RobC wrote:
23 Mar 2018
I've been digging the manual for info, googling, searching the forum (everyone was scratching surfaces and various body parts); but in the end: I'm looking for at least a somewhat realistic scratching possibility.

I tried the tape-freeze combo and manually modulating the "position" (resulting in some glitchy clicking sounds at zero speed), and start position (but that only works with some speed, more than zero, resulting in some dragging effect, and tops near scratch-like effect).

Could it be that it's not possible to do with grain - and that I try using it for something it wasn't designed for? (I hope I'm just unlucky with creating at least Virtual DJ and alike software scratching effect.)

So, anybody know the answer?
Grain fucking rocks.

Reset Grain. Load a sample (drum loop, vocal, or whatever) or live sample something, and tweak your loop to your liking in the sample edit window; save. Set the sample to "One Shot". Set your envelope to "Tape".

Assign the Position marker to the Mod Wheel in the mod matrix, cranking the amount to 15-100 in the mod matrix. Strike a key on your MIDI keyboard and start playing with the Mod Wheel - it's like instant turntable scratching madness. The key to it sounding how you want is playing with the amount in the mod matrix. Depending on the length of your sample, it can sound too glitchy and unnatural if you crank the amount up to high, or not "scratch" enough if too low. It's proportional to the length of your source material.

Download an example songfile at the link here:

http://www.nympheas.org/reason/GrainScratchFun.reason

Again, I'll have to happily disagree with Psuper on this one. Grain is far more easier to use than The Mangle, and frankly - between the CV and mod matrix, Grain is a ton more powerful in Reason (not to mention has a ton of fantastic sounding presets and 3rd party sounds available). I know he gives the Mangle a lot of love here, but it just doesn't hold a candle to Grain, IMHO. Obviously, YMMV... :)
Win 10 | Reason 12 |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

User avatar
Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

Post 24 Mar 2018

EnochLight wrote:
24 Mar 2018
RobC wrote:
23 Mar 2018
I've been digging the manual for info, googling, searching the forum (everyone was scratching surfaces and various body parts); but in the end: I'm looking for at least a somewhat realistic scratching possibility.

I tried the tape-freeze combo and manually modulating the "position" (resulting in some glitchy clicking sounds at zero speed), and start position (but that only works with some speed, more than zero, resulting in some dragging effect, and tops near scratch-like effect).

Could it be that it's not possible to do with grain - and that I try using it for something it wasn't designed for? (I hope I'm just unlucky with creating at least Virtual DJ and alike software scratching effect.)

So, anybody know the answer?
Grain fucking rocks.

Reset Grain. Load a sample (drum loop, vocal, or whatever) or live sample something, and tweak your loop to your liking in the sample edit window; save. Set the sample to "One Shot". Set your envelope to "Tape".

Assign the Position marker to the Mod Wheel in the mod matrix, cranking the amount to 15-100 in the mod matrix. Strike a key on your MIDI keyboard and start playing with the Mod Wheel - it's like instant turntable scratching madness. The key to it sounding how you want is playing with the amount in the mod matrix. Depending on the length of your sample, it can sound too glitchy and unnatural if you crank the amount up to high, or not "scratch" enough if too low. It's proportional to the length of your source material.

Download an example songfile at the link here:

http://www.nympheas.org/reason/GrainScratchFun.reason

Again, I'll have to happily disagree with Psuper on this one. Grain is far more easier to use than The Mangle, and frankly - between the CV and mod matrix, Grain is a ton more powerful in Reason (not to mention has a ton of fantastic sounding presets and 3rd party sounds available). I know he gives the Mangle a lot of love here, but it just doesn't hold a candle to Grain, IMHO. Obviously, YMMV... :)
It seems you think we disagree that Grain rocks, I always stated I liked it almost enough to buy R10, however you clearly don't know what Mangle can do, and to compare you have to have worked in both at least for a reasonable amount of time - all I did in R10 beta was focus on Grain, and anyone on the forums can attest to it because I posted constantly about what it could do, I was by far Grains biggest cheerleader.

As for the specific 'scratch' thing, its one of the things I tried almost immediately when I got past the patches. I remember Grain was limited in the sample for the mod position, like it would only go part of the way (half I believe if you watched it in the sample). More importantly, try recording it! Which is why I mentioned the precision, since its an automation, its almost impossible to get the same or consistent real-time sound which I found extremely frustrating. Its for that reason I came up with 'playing' the sample among other things.

I assume you haven't worked in Mangle much if at all because it can do anything Grain can, and its far easier to work with. One of the only things I wanted from Grain was to "play" Grain, hit a note and it jumps to a precise location in the sample within Grain. Can't do that in Grain, where in Mangle its insanely easy. Its one thing to talk about CV and Mod Matrix, sounds good, sounds expanseish, sounds unlimited. Its another to make something useful from them. CV and Mod Matrix doesn't offer near the ease of usability in Grain compared to Mangle's drag and drop approach of those same types of modulators, and more like a multiple step sequencer built in, keymaps, macros, man there's so many unbelievable 'in your face right in the UI' additions that Grain simply doesn't even pretend to have. And when you consider all the same CV and internal Matrix options are also on the programmer of Mangle, and you see the insane amount of assigns it can be to, you're glad the drag and drop is so killer efficient and logical because Grain doesn't come close here.

I'm not talking down on Grain, it's great. But it definitely pales in comparison to what Mangle can do and is capable of.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

User avatar
Lempface
Posts: 183
Joined: 27 Jan 2018

Post 24 Mar 2018

Psuper wrote:
24 Mar 2018
EnochLight wrote:
24 Mar 2018


Grain fucking rocks.

Reset Grain. Load a sample (drum loop, vocal, or whatever) or live sample something, and tweak your loop to your liking in the sample edit window; save. Set the sample to "One Shot". Set your envelope to "Tape".

Assign the Position marker to the Mod Wheel in the mod matrix, cranking the amount to 15-100 in the mod matrix. Strike a key on your MIDI keyboard and start playing with the Mod Wheel - it's like instant turntable scratching madness. The key to it sounding how you want is playing with the amount in the mod matrix. Depending on the length of your sample, it can sound too glitchy and unnatural if you crank the amount up to high, or not "scratch" enough if too low. It's proportional to the length of your source material.

Download an example songfile at the link here:

http://www.nympheas.org/reason/GrainScratchFun.reason

Again, I'll have to happily disagree with Psuper on this one. Grain is far more easier to use than The Mangle, and frankly - between the CV and mod matrix, Grain is a ton more powerful in Reason (not to mention has a ton of fantastic sounding presets and 3rd party sounds available). I know he gives the Mangle a lot of love here, but it just doesn't hold a candle to Grain, IMHO. Obviously, YMMV... :)
It seems you think we disagree that Grain rocks, I always stated I liked it almost enough to buy R10, however you clearly don't know what Mangle can do, and to compare you have to have worked in both at least for a reasonable amount of time - all I did in R10 beta was focus on Grain, and anyone on the forums can attest to it because I posted constantly about what it could do, I was by far Grains biggest cheerleader.

As for the specific 'scratch' thing, its one of the things I tried almost immediately when I got past the patches. I remember Grain was limited in the sample for the mod position, like it would only go part of the way (half I believe if you watched it in the sample). More importantly, try recording it! Which is why I mentioned the precision, since its an automation, its almost impossible to get the same or consistent real-time sound which I found extremely frustrating. Its for that reason I came up with 'playing' the sample among other things.

I assume you haven't worked in Mangle much if at all because it can do anything Grain can, and its far easier to work with. One of the only things I wanted from Grain was to "play" Grain, hit a note and it jumps to a precise location in the sample within Grain. Can't do that in Grain, where in Mangle its insanely easy. Its one thing to talk about CV and Mod Matrix, sounds good, sounds expanseish, sounds unlimited. Its another to make something useful from them. CV and Mod Matrix doesn't offer near the ease of usability in Grain compared to Mangle's drag and drop approach of those same types of modulators, and more like a multiple step sequencer built in, keymaps, macros, man there's so many unbelievable 'in your face right in the UI' additions that Grain simply doesn't even pretend to have. And when you consider all the same CV and internal Matrix options are also on the programmer of Mangle, and you see the insane amount of assigns it can be to, you're glad the drag and drop is so killer efficient and logical because Grain doesn't come close here.

I'm not talking down on Grain, it's great. But it definitely pales in comparison to what Mangle can do and is capable of.
At least Propellerhead responds to customer e-mails. Mangle may be great but that dev is a POS. Can't even get a download link for my version of Tangle.
Reason 11 Suite | Bitwig Studio 3 | Native Instruments Komplete 13 Ultimate Collector's | Komplete Kontrol M32 | Maschine Mikro MK2 | Maschine Jam

User avatar
Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

Post 24 Mar 2018

Lempface wrote:
24 Mar 2018

At least Propellerhead responds to customer e-mails. Mangle may be great but that dev is a POS. Can't even get a download link for my version of Tangle.
Can't argue with that, I agree. Its abandonware and the Dev never responds to anything.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

User avatar
EnochLight
Moderator
Posts: 7273
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Useless Moderator

Post 25 Mar 2018

Psuper wrote:
24 Mar 2018
It seems you think we disagree that Grain rocks, I always stated I liked it almost enough to buy R10, however you clearly don't know what Mangle can do, and to compare you have to have worked in both at least for a reasonable amount of time - all I did in R10 beta was focus on Grain, and anyone on the forums can attest to it because I posted constantly about what it could do, I was by far Grains biggest cheerleader.

As for the specific 'scratch' thing, its one of the things I tried almost immediately when I got past the patches. I remember Grain was limited in the sample for the mod position, like it would only go part of the way (half I believe if you watched it in the sample). More importantly, try recording it! Which is why I mentioned the precision, since its an automation, its almost impossible to get the same or consistent real-time sound which I found extremely frustrating. Its for that reason I came up with 'playing' the sample among other things.

I assume you haven't worked in Mangle much if at all because it can do anything Grain can, and its far easier to work with. One of the only things I wanted from Grain was to "play" Grain, hit a note and it jumps to a precise location in the sample within Grain. Can't do that in Grain, where in Mangle its insanely easy. Its one thing to talk about CV and Mod Matrix, sounds good, sounds expanseish, sounds unlimited. Its another to make something useful from them. CV and Mod Matrix doesn't offer near the ease of usability in Grain compared to Mangle's drag and drop approach of those same types of modulators, and more like a multiple step sequencer built in, keymaps, macros, man there's so many unbelievable 'in your face right in the UI' additions that Grain simply doesn't even pretend to have. And when you consider all the same CV and internal Matrix options are also on the programmer of Mangle, and you see the insane amount of assigns it can be to, you're glad the drag and drop is so killer efficient and logical because Grain doesn't come close here.

I'm not talking down on Grain, it's great. But it definitely pales in comparison to what Mangle can do and is capable of.
I hear you.

I guess my issues with Mangle are just too numerous, but I get that you find a lot of value in it. To be clear, I spent some time with Mangle and even considered buying it, but the fact that it's abandon-ware, the dev not giving a shit about it but happy to take my money, the fact that I can't sample on-the-fly with it , lacking even a rudimentary sample edit feature (if it has this, admittedly I missed it), and it being absolutely devoid of original content just made it a huge turn off for me. I couldn't bring myself to drop $28 USD on something that literally may not work in a future OS or DAW update. :(
Win 10 | Reason 12 |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

RobC
Posts: 1229
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 26 Mar 2018

EnochLight, I managed to create sort of a scratching, too - but the best would be if you actually could wind up the sample like rotating a turntable manually. In other words, a more accurate, instant flexibility, instead of the tape-like after-dragging. Maybe they should add a vinyl/disc player mode in the future.

User avatar
EnochLight
Moderator
Posts: 7273
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Useless Moderator

Post 26 Mar 2018

RobC wrote:
26 Mar 2018
EnochLight, I managed to create sort of a scratching, too - but the best would be if you actually could wind up the sample like rotating a turntable manually. In other words, a more accurate, instant flexibility, instead of the tape-like after-dragging. Maybe they should add a vinyl/disc player mode in the future.
Oh totally! And the sad part is - this has been possible with the current RE SDK ever since sampling was added over a year ago. I'm just guessing no RE devs hopped on board since 9.5 brought VST support, as there are plenty of VST turntable scratching plugins out there.
Win 10 | Reason 12 |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

RobC
Posts: 1229
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 26 Mar 2018

Yeah, but I trust Propellerhead the most.
I'm surprised why they would stop developing REs. I mean, they can't even be pirated to begin with.

User avatar
EnochLight
Moderator
Posts: 7273
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Useless Moderator

Post 26 Mar 2018

RobC wrote:
26 Mar 2018
Yeah, but I trust Propellerhead the most.
I'm surprised why they would stop developing REs. I mean, they can't even be pirated to begin with.
Propellerhead? They haven't stopped developing RE's. I guess they just never saw a viable market to do a turntable RE, is all. It's a niche thing.
Win 10 | Reason 12 |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

RobC
Posts: 1229
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 26 Mar 2018

No, I mean people say, third party developers would lose interest in REs because of VST integration.

Jay Bird
Posts: 14
Joined: 25 May 2017

Post 28 Mar 2018

EnochLight wrote:
24 Mar 2018
RobC wrote:
23 Mar 2018
I've been digging the manual for info, googling, searching the forum (everyone was scratching surfaces and various body parts); but in the end: I'm looking for at least a somewhat realistic scratching possibility.

I tried the tape-freeze combo and manually modulating the "position" (resulting in some glitchy clicking sounds at zero speed), and start position (but that only works with some speed, more than zero, resulting in some dragging effect, and tops near scratch-like effect).

Could it be that it's not possible to do with grain - and that I try using it for something it wasn't designed for? (I hope I'm just unlucky with creating at least Virtual DJ and alike software scratching effect.)

So, anybody know the answer?
Grain fucking rocks.

Reset Grain. Load a sample (drum loop, vocal, or whatever) or live sample something, and tweak your loop to your liking in the sample edit window; save. Set the sample to "One Shot". Set your envelope to "Tape".

Assign the Position marker to the Mod Wheel in the mod matrix, cranking the amount to 15-100 in the mod matrix. Strike a key on your MIDI keyboard and start playing with the Mod Wheel - it's like instant turntable scratching madness. The key to it sounding how you want is playing with the amount in the mod matrix. Depending on the length of your sample, it can sound too glitchy and unnatural if you crank the amount up to high, or not "scratch" enough if too low. It's proportional to the length of your source material.

Download an example songfile at the link here:

http://www.nympheas.org/reason/GrainScratchFun.reason

Again, I'll have to happily disagree with Psuper on this one. Grain is far more easier to use than The Mangle, and frankly - between the CV and mod matrix, Grain is a ton more powerful in Reason (not to mention has a ton of fantastic sounding presets and 3rd party sounds available). I know he gives the Mangle a lot of love here, but it just doesn't hold a candle to Grain, IMHO. Obviously, YMMV... :)


I tried this out and I thought it worked great. Thanks for the tip. I never would have thought it was possible.

RobC
Posts: 1229
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 29 Mar 2018

It 'is' great, guys but Grain wasn't planned for scratching (yet) it seems. Maybe it could use a vinyl mode like I said.

User avatar
EnochLight
Moderator
Posts: 7273
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Useless Moderator

Post 29 Mar 2018

Jay Bird wrote:
28 Mar 2018
I tried this out and I thought it worked great. Thanks for the tip. I never would have thought it was possible.
Glad to see you found it useful! Enjoy!
Win 10 | Reason 12 |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: chimp_spanner, fieldframe and 11 guests