Propellerheads might be waking up finally. Not that it means anything yet.

[Gorgon]

Let's face it: OUTSIDE the Reason community (and sometimes inside as well) the common opinion of Reason devices is that they sound "dated", not "modern" enough, and samples found in ReFills like Orkester are "bland" or "lackluster" at best.

It must be stressed that this is not my personal opinion. But if Props wanted to do a plain marketing move to new customers out there, then this step was mandatory.

Oh yes! The old devices have the "Reason sound" and lack "Air"! That's it! Europa and Grain cure all that!

[Gorgon]

For a first-time buyer with no plugins? Europa and Grain are massive values and absolutely needed for those buyers.

Yeah and you'll say the same about the next upgrade with another 2 completely unnecessary devices, because you're a biased fanboy.

[Gorgon]

This would lead me to believe that you have no clue what Europa can do if you think Subtractor is equally as capable.

That is not what he said.

[Kenni]

Holy... Could people please get down from their piedestals and stop acting like they're 50% smarter than anyone else?

Why do you guys even bother discussing this over and over again? Gorgon, Psuper, change your records, PLEASE.

[Gorgon]

Holy... Could people please get down from their piedestals and stop acting like they're 50% smarter than anyone else?

Why do you guys even bother discussing this over and over again? Gorgon, Psuper, change your records, PLEASE.

So the only people who are being addressed here are the ones who do not agree with the fact that Reason 10 is a good upgrade.

Hey thanks fanboy!

You don't seem to care about Enoglights pedestal from which he preaches that Europa and Grain are a MUST!

[Gorgon]

Holy... Could people please get down from their piedestals and stop acting like they're 50% smarter than anyone else?

Why do you guys even bother discussing this over and over again? Gorgon, Psuper, change your records, PLEASE.

And for the record, I am not discussing this "over and over again". But I am on a forum and I should be able to state my opinion, and also refute points that are in my opinion not valid. Such as that the new devices in Reason 10 are a "must". If you think that's out of order, well, I guess that PH got you in their pocket now. Are they paying you?

[Psuper]

Holy... Could people please get down from their piedestals and stop acting like they're 50% smarter than anyone else?

Why do you guys even bother discussing this over and over again? Gorgon, Psuper, change your records, PLEASE.

Hey Kenni, you might want to read this thread before you go accusing people of standing on some podium preaching. Not only have I been civil, I've been concise and respectful as always. Does that make me smarter? Why would it even matter?

Its your kind of posts that makes this stuff toxic - 5 pages of solid discussion (except Eds trolling) ruined by the kind of crap that makes other Reasoner feel its ok to shit on others. We're all having a healthy conversation and someone comes in with a chip on their shoulder and fingers pointing for no obvious reason. Mod or not, you are wrong.

And what exactly should I be discussing in a Reason General forum?

[hurricane]

[QVprod]

Psuper, your statement is contradictory. If “relevant” and “current” are relative, then who’s to say that sounds only doable by Europa and Grain type of synths arent necessary? That would depend of the type of music a user creates. Do I need Europa? No. But I don’t make EDM.

You just proved my entire point.

However I'm not saying what relevant and current are, and neither should anyone else, nor can it be defined. Its subjective and a minefield of styles.

But if you're saying that Europa and grain shouldn't be included in Reason as stock because Subtractor and a Combinator are enough, then you are defining it. I stated that I personally may not need Europa, though I definitely do use it, because my music doesn't require it. But someone who makes a different kind of music may than you and I may very well need it. I wouldn't dare say I don't need this feature/device so it shouldn't be included because I only need X feature. Heck, give me both. I skipped the Reason 8 upgrade, not because drag and drop was a bad feature, but simply because i didn't feel there was enough value. I felt it needed more, not an entire different feature set than what was included.

Notice, no one disagrees that Reason could use more DAW features. The disagreement is in the concept that the need for DAW features vs. instruments/devices is mutually exclusive. Both are needed to satisfy the diverse user base.

[Psuper]

But if you're saying that Europa and grain shouldn't be included in Reason as stock because Subtractor and a Combinator are enough, then you are defining it.

No, I didn't say that at all not even remotely. And so I don't sound too smart, I simply refer you to my prior statements in this thread.

Notice, no one disagrees that Reason could use more DAW features. The disagreement is in the concept that the need for DAW features vs. instruments/devices is mutually exclusive. Both are needed to satisfy the diverse user base.

Page 1 reply by me:
Whether or not they are mutually exclusive is up to Propellerhead. Can props make native devices and get some serious work done on the backend side? Their history of updates is telling us absolutely not - they're great about making devices, but DAW tech is minimal at best.

[EnochLight]

For a first-time buyer with no plugins? Europa and Grain are massive values and absolutely needed for those buyers.

Yeah and you'll say the same about the next upgrade with another 2 completely unnecessary devices, because you're a biased fanboy.

Phasys, seriously - put your guns away. There's no need to resort to this sort of behavior just because you don't agree with my opinion.

And for the record, I am not discussing this "over and over again". But I am on a forum and I should be able to state my opinion, and also refute points that are in my opinion not valid. Such as that the new devices in Reason 10 are a "must". If you think that's out of order, well, I guess that PH got you in their pocket now. Are they paying you?

Disagreeing with someone's opinion is perfectly acceptable. Resorting to name calling is not. But you already know this, so...

[ravisoni]

Sorry for speaking out of turn, but civility is one thing. Civility to the point of snowflakery is another. Dunno Gorgon's behavior in other threads, but if the decision to ban him was made on the basis of this thread alone, I find it a bit too... much. If not... like I said, sorry for speaking out of turn.

[QVprod]

Sorry for speaking out of turn, but civility is one thing. Civility to the point of snowflakery is another. Dunno Gorgon's behavior in other threads, but if the decision to ban him was made on the basis of this thread alone, I find it a bit too... much. If not... like I said, sorry for speaking out of turn.

We delete some posts so that people don’t continue to respond to them. Needless to say there were rules broken before Kenni responded.

[antic604]

It's an interesting discussion about what makes a DAW appealing, really.

It obviously is anecdotal, but in my case the added devices - Europa & Grain (and awesome videos from Mattias & Ryan) - were the tipping point features that made me buy Reason 10 in the first place. If you followed my posts, I'm coming from Live 10 and Bitwig 2, and they can do anything Reason can with much less effort: you don't need to drag cables, re-patch stuff to change order or add devices in the middle, use splitters / mergers & mixers to manage the signal flow, use devices "against" their primary function, etc. What they're lacking though, is the visual flair and feedback of Reason (despite it's stubborn refusal to support HighDPI screens...) - seeing the hardware devices, cables, mixer is just fun; it's satisfying (to me). When I look at the device chains in Live or Bitwig, they're just a series of same-coloured boxes, without much character. Bitwig get's slightly better with all the moving modulators & dynamic displays, but Reason is on another level - when I see a Mix Channel, I know how it works and I can immediately recognise which part of my track it's responsible for.

And here's why I appreciate new synths & effects: even if I know I can get the same or very similar result using a device I already have in my rack, most often than not I'll reach for something else. There are 2 reasons for that: 1) it will look different, so I don't get confused which device is playing what part, 2) I might get inspired to venture off of the original idea because of different controls, additional options (or limitations), different CV possibilities, etc. I'm always confused seeing projects with dozens instances of just Subtractor, Thor and NN-XT and/or ones full of Combinators, because they're - to me, I'm aware - looking very 'anonymous' and bland. I like my rack colourful and varied. That's why I also don't like how VSTs are implemented, with this generic face-plate, that's identical for every instrument & effect.

So, for me personally, the selling point of Reason is the Rack (+Mixer) and native instruments, effect and utilities + all the (native-like) RE goodies I can get from the Shop. I don't really need VSTs, to the point I disabled them.

Also, I'm willing to overlook some of the shortcomings of Reason's sequencer, because almost every DAW has a fair share of its quirks and in Reason's case it's this awkward marriage of modern & archaic features: sure, you can't resize the piano-roll, you can't edit 2+ clips at the same time, you can't create groups/folders and every device gets its own track when adding automation, but on the other hand things like audio comping (absent in both Live & Bitwig), multiple MIDI lanes, MIDI editing panel (F8), automation clips, in-sequencer stretching & pitch editing of audio, blocks mode, etc. are all really awesome! Sure, some things require few more clicks or getting used to, but that's not unusual for any DAW.

EDIT: I'm aware all this might seem completely opposite & backwards for long-time Reason user, but since we're discussing "new" users as well it's my 0.02$

[Kenni]

The "Kenni's on Propellerhead's payroll" argument is getting old.

Psuper, can we please stop pretending you don't know what I'm talking about?

It's not about the word being used, it's about the intentions

I welcome articulate replies, but we now have a discussion that has become the "Reason-sound" topic of late.

People don't need Europa/Grain - I do. As soon as I got exposed to their powers, I really do. Sure, I can stack a gazillion subtractors to get a similar (but not comparable) result, or I can just add a Grain or Europa. You're not an authority on this matter, stop pretending you're talking on "people's" behalf and just spin it like it really is, then the "people" can stop search your threads for words like "people" and "users" and replace them with "me".

I'm not saying you're doing something wrong here, but it seems that there's no "heated" debate without Psuper present being overly negative. I'd like to see that change, so people like me can chime in without being accused of being on someone's payroll and make these discussions pleasant to read for other users than you.

[Kenni]

On topic though, what I'd like to see is you actually write an article about this since I know you have a lot on your mind about Propellerhead and their update strategies. Then we could base a discussion off of that. I think that would be much more fruitful!

[Goodbye]

Please make sure you agree that Reason is great and doesn't need updating before posting.

Thank you.

[EnochLight]

It's an interesting discussion about what makes a DAW appealing, really.

It obviously is anecdotal, but in my case the added devices - Europa & Grain (and awesome videos from Mattias & Ryan) - were the tipping point features that made me buy Reason 10 in the first place. If you followed my posts, I'm coming from Live 10 and Bitwig 2, and they can do anything Reason can with much less effort: you don't need to drag cables, re-patch stuff to change order or add devices in the middle, use splitters / mergers & mixers to manage the signal flow, use devices "against" their primary function, etc. What they're lacking though, is the visual flair and feedback of Reason (despite it's stubborn refusal to support HighDPI screens...) - seeing the hardware devices, cables, mixer is just fun; it's satisfying (to me). When I look at the device chains in Live or Bitwig, they're just a series of same-coloured boxes, without much character. Bitwig get's slightly better with all the moving modulators & dynamic displays, but Reason is on another level - when I see a Mix Channel, I know how it works and I can immediately recognise which part of my track it's responsible for.

And here's why I appreciate new synths & effects: even if I know I can get the same or very similar result using a device I already have in my rack, most often than not I'll reach for something else. There are 2 reasons for that: 1) it will look different, so I don't get confused which device is playing what part, 2) I might get inspired to venture off of the original idea because of different controls, additional options (or limitations), different CV possibilities, etc. I'm always confused seeing projects with dozens instances of just Subtractor, Thor and NN-XT and/or ones full of Combinators, because they're - to me, I'm aware - looking very 'anonymous' and bland. I like my rack colourful and varied. That's why I also don't like how VSTs are implemented, with this generic face-plate, that's identical for every instrument & effect.

So, for me personally, the selling point of Reason is the Rack (+Mixer) and native instruments, effect and utilities + all the (native-like) RE goodies I can get from the Shop. I don't really need VSTs, to the point I disabled them.

Also, I'm willing to overlook some of the shortcomings of Reason's sequencer, because almost every DAW has a fair share of its quirks and in Reason's case it's this awkward marriage of modern & archaic features: sure, you can't resize the piano-roll, you can't edit 2+ clips at the same time, you can't create groups/folders and every device gets its own track when adding automation, but on the other hand things like audio comping (absent in both Live & Bitwig), multiple MIDI lanes, MIDI editing panel (F8), automation clips, in-sequencer stretching & pitch editing of audio, blocks mode, etc. are all really awesome! Sure, some things require few more clicks or getting used to, but that's not unusual for any DAW.

EDIT: I'm aware all this might seem completely opposite & backwards for long-time Reason user, but since we're discussing "new" users as well it's my 0.02$

This was fantastic insight from a new user; thanks for sharing this. Over at KVR, I saw a longtime member (braj) recently pick up R10 as well (well, scored it free in a contest - lucky!) and after a week of spending time with it, they seem to be enjoying Reason as a production environment as well, despite a myriad of valid criticisms.

Despite what goodbye and Gorgon (phasys) would have others believe, I have my own criticisms of Reason (a plethora, actually!), but perhaps it's my delivery... perhaps it's my "glass half full" approach to life. I don't know. *shrugs*

Anyway, thanks for sharing your insight - it's rare to get an objective opinion from a new user that's level headed and absent of scathing veiled passive aggressive bullhockey. Also, and I realize this is several months too late - but welcome to the forums!

Back on topic: I feel Psuper's discussion brings up some interesting points, though we've (as in other people, threads) discussed many of these things before a dozen times over when R10 first launched. I obviously disagree with some of those points, but the discussion has been mostly productive IMHO!

[antic604]

This was fantastic insight from a new user; thanks for sharing this.

My pleasure, hope it's useful

And I really understand the dilemma here - on one hand, we all would like our DAW (whatever it is) to have the best workflow, most features, most powerful native devices, the best performance, the nicest look, etc. On the other hand, if every DAW developer tried to achieve just that, they'd all look the same and feel the same. So, in the end - IMO, of course - it's all about finding a DAW that appeals to the user the most, to his particular way of working, his gear, his aesthetic preferences, his skill and experience, even his music style to certain extent.

Reason is - and hopefully, continues to be - about the virtual studio paradigm with all its pros & cons and as such will not appeal to everyone, especially young people that never even saw the innards of their PC and used other cables than power & headphone ones... If someone expects it to work like Cubase or Reaper, then probably they'd be better off just getting one of those DAWs instead. If "modular DAW" for them only means flexibility in terms of routing audio & MIDI, then probably Live or Bitwig is a better choice.

Therefore, if we want Reason to thrive, we should think - and suggest to Props - how to make it stand out even more (in a positive way, obviously ) and capitalise on what makes it unique. In the past I'd say this would be about new devices & development of RE SDK. Now, since 9.5 happened, I'd also like to see them try to really integrate VSTs into the Rack *visually* even though if not every single one will fit and look great there next to Thor or RV-7000. Obviously all the (often very small) improvements to the sequencer need to happen too, because even if for my hobbyist use they're nothing more but a nuisance, then I can imagine for those that make music (sami-)professionally those extra clicks / scrolls / patching add up to hours of potentially wasted time, lost income and frustration.

[JiggeryPokery]

it's my "glass half full" approach to life.

How big's the glass?

I mean, if it's a stein, then fair play, and that would explain a lot! If you have a spare you'd be happy to exchange, I've got plenty of shot glasses...

[EnochLight]

it's my "glass half full" approach to life.

How big's the glass?

I mean, if it's a stein, then fair play, and that would explain a lot! If you have a spare you'd be happy to exchange, I've got plenty of shot glasses...

[Namyo85]

I actually prefer Subtractor to Europa because it has its own file extension and icon and is a finished product with loads of cv connections on the back!

[MikeMcKew]

Thanks for your insight! I enjoyed your posts.

[sublunar]

My 2 cents.

I just want to say that I will not be upgrading again until the backend/workflow is finally addressed. I have lots of complaints about Reason. I'm not a mindless fanboy. The workflow REALLY needs to be updated.

BUT... Reason is still by FAR my favorite DAW and It's not even close.

Europa and Grain are definitely awesome and it doesn't take being a fanboy to appreciate them. I'm not sure why Gorgon is still around these forums since I rarely pop in and every time I do, he's on here bashing.

I held off buying Reason until v6 once they added audio recording. I had previously admired them from afar but never truly needed synths and electronic type of instruments, despite the fact that they're fun to play around with. Then, I got v8 when I moved on from Windows XP; XP end of life was the only reason I upgraded at the time, although v8 had some nice bonuses. I then promptly ignored the VST nonsense until v10 when I got VST nonsense PLUS Europa and Grain and a handful of other things. I was hyped up initially about VSTs, as someone who had never used a VST plugin in a song in 10 years of computer based music recording (I play physical instruments most of the time). But after getting VK2 as well as the Mix and Mastering Rig, I realize that I don't really need VSTs hogging up resources. The only exception is EZdrummer. But I previously used EMI to include it in my songs anyway (after getting into v8), so VST support has actually changed very little about how I operate. I've even removed all extraneous VSTs from my templates as well. I only wish the workflow was updated now. MIDI editing, etc. We sorely need updates on the backend. We have enough instruments at this point.

[madmacman]

I'm frustrated that someone (...) took my reply to turn it into an "oh that old Reason sound" argument.

Errr - no! That was not the intention of my posting. It was more a reference that there is "dated" sound material in DAW's. And most competitors out there (at least Cubase, Logic, Ableton) ship loads of stuff, samples, new synths, new effects with major releases to please (new?) customers. I mean, no one would really record a song with Steinberg Neon or Steinberg Model E? They are dated - and compared to today's softsynth standards they lose. So Steinberg has removed them long ago - for good reasons and replaced them by better, "modern" successors.

That's all I wanted to say.