Propellerheads might be waking up finally. Not that it means anything yet.

[madmacman]

They get all that with Reason 9. Loads of samples, more than they'll ever use. And a crapload of devices. No need for Europa or Grain. At all.

Let's face it: OUTSIDE the Reason community (and sometimes inside as well) the common opinion of Reason devices is that they sound "dated", not "modern" enough, and samples found in ReFills like Orkester are "bland" or "lackluster" at best.

It must be stressed that this is not my personal opinion. But if Props wanted to do a plain marketing move to new customers out there, then this step was mandatory.

[Psuper]

One of Reason's selling points is that it's a complete "virtual studio" package that doesn't need any additional purchases to start making good music (especially electronic music.)
Potential new customers expect the inbuilt Instruments to be broadly competitive with current electronic music software instruments. Thor was not. Europa and Grain are. Simple. New devices should not only be optional purchases in the shop - that would be silly. By that logic ALL the devices in Reason should be optional purchases, and young newbies should have to work out from an uninspiring pallette of fuck-all what devices they need to buy before they can actually have fun, having never so much as programmed a 4/4 kick. By that logic there would be some arbitrary cut-off date - say 2009 - after which no new devices are ever added.

First off, what gorgon just said above - there's plenty, has been plenty, and they don' t have to be "Cutting Edge" as you are suggesting - the ecosystem is built and there's no reason to pile on synths they think you should use: we could purchase what we need or want ourselves via RE or VST.

Stuff selling these days are crappy remakes of prehistoric synths that died off ages ago for nostalgia factor, you couldn't pay me to use them but they're certainly popular! The early Subtractor is still, by far, one of the most capable "synths" out there, and if its not fat/slim/cool/different/creative enough slap it in a combi and go wild! I can combi some subs and older devices and blow-the-fuck-away any "modern" synth-or-otherwise sounds with pure creativity alone, and likely so could most of you.

Not to mention thor mael, samplers, drum machines, a bunch of effects with umpteen REs and VSTs should you feel the vast endless-possibilities-pallet is too meager for your taste. There is absolutely ZERO logic that anyone should have to be fed devices at this point as the "upgrade" strategy for Props or their existing and future customers.

Everyone is better off getting core DAW updates and having the choice of devices to purchase - hell this is EXACTLY what propellerheads designed with the Rack Extensions in mind, and now with VSTs to go along with it there's absolutely no good reason to shovel default devices that many people have no need of.

[EnochLight]

Now think of that person who is shopping around for their first DAW. They don't have expensive VSTs, sample packs, loop packs, or presets.

They get all that with Reason 9. Loads of samples, more than they'll ever use. And a crapload of devices. No need for Europa or Grain. At all.

For a first-time buyer with no plugins? Europa and Grain are massive values and absolutely needed for those buyers.

[Psuper]

They get all that with Reason 9. Loads of samples, more than they'll ever use. And a crapload of devices. No need for Europa or Grain. At all.

For a first-time buyer with no plugins? Europa and Grain are massive values and absolutely needed for those buyers.

As I mentioned before, a first time buyer could have a combi and a subtractor and do what most "plugins" could never do, period. Regardless, which buyers are you referring to? This buyer certainly has no need of either, certainly anyone who doesn't fall into the 'edm' category has no need. And there's a whole shitload of other categories musicians fall into.. so what about them?

A first time buyer is already overwhelmed with the vast array of stuff Reason offers at R6, not to mention R9.

R10? Upgrade $60. Europa $50 Grain $50. Done - sold 10x more units and everyone is happy. Thank me later.

[QVprod]

First off, what gorgon just said above - there's plenty, has been plenty, and they don' t have to be "Cutting Edge" as you are suggesting - the ecosystem is built and there's no reason to pile on synths they think you should use: we could purchase what we need or want ourselves via RE or VST.

Stuff selling these days are crappy remakes of prehistoric synths that died off ages ago for nostalgia factor, you couldn't pay me to use them but they're certainly popular! The early Subtractor is still, by far, one of the most capable "synths" out there, and if its not fat/slim/cool/different/creative enough slap it in a combi and go wild! I can combi some subs and older devices and blow-the-fuck-away any "modern" synth-or-otherwise sounds with pure creativity alone, and likely so could most of you.

This would lead me to believe that you have no clue what Europa can do if you think Subtractor is equally as capable. Surely we can’t be expecting every Reason use to interested in combinator modular routing to even attempt trying to match it, especially not new users. Subtractor is good, but it’s built for building far less complex sounds than what Europa can produce. Granted yes people rave about emulations of decades old synths, but that’s for specific character sounds and not synth capabilities. Software isn’t viewed in the same way when it comes to age. Thor was considered cutting edge when it was released. Nothing wrong with having a more modern flagship synth 10 years later.

[EdGrip]

Things like Europa and Grain are important for new producers who want to be reassured that their first DAW that they choose to spend a big chunk of money on can keep up with the current sounds that they want to get started making. Obviously.

New devices and general workflow updates aren't mutually exclusive. To take the position that there should never be any new built-in devices ever again is daft.

It's no use telling 14-year-old Chris who knows literally nothing about music production and who just wants to get going making bangers that (nasal nerd voice) "actually you can make big unison sounds by simply putting 12 copied and slightly detuned Subtractors in a combinator and routing them through a line mixer with different pan settings." That's hardly going to keep up with the competition, and is a sure way to make sure Chris (quite rightly and understandably) buys something else instead.

The very fact that a DAW's native devices basically haven't been updated in living memory is hardly ideal from a marketing point of view - rightly or wrongly. Surely you can see that?

[Psuper]

First off, what gorgon just said above - there's plenty, has been plenty, and they don' t have to be "Cutting Edge" as you are suggesting - the ecosystem is built and there's no reason to pile on synths they think you should use: we could purchase what we need or want ourselves via RE or VST.

Stuff selling these days are crappy remakes of prehistoric synths that died off ages ago for nostalgia factor, you couldn't pay me to use them but they're certainly popular! The early Subtractor is still, by far, one of the most capable "synths" out there, and if its not fat/slim/cool/different/creative enough slap it in a combi and go wild! I can combi some subs and older devices and blow-the-fuck-away any "modern" synth-or-otherwise sounds with pure creativity alone, and likely so could most of you.

This would lead me to believe that you have no clue what Europa can do if you think Subtractor is equally as capable. Surely we can’t be expecting every Reason use to interested in combinator modular routing to even attempt trying to match it, especially not new users. Subtractor is good, but it’s built for building far less complex sounds than what Europa can produce. Granted yes people rave about emulations of decades old synths, but that’s for specific character sounds and not synth capabilities. Software isn’t viewed in the same way when it comes to age. Thor was considered cutting edge when it was released. Nothing wrong with having a more modern flagship synth 10 years later.

Please don't start that kind of stuff, I'm not even going to respond deeply just re-read my statement. We're all talking about what Reason offers people, and the combinator is the core of the entire program. A stacked subtractor 'obsolete synth' can make more modern/hip/cool/unique sounds than most any synth on its own.

[EdGrip]

A stacked subtractor 'obsolete synth' can make more modern/hip/cool/unique sounds than most any synth on its own.

It obviously can't.

[EdGrip]

[Psuper]

A stacked subtractor 'obsolete synth' can make more modern/hip/cool/unique sounds than most any synth on its own.

It obviously can't.

^
|
|
There's your guy who doesn't know what Reason is capable of, let alone a synth. Now Ed, cut the childish shit out that's silly crap people start when their points are busted.

[EdGrip]

It obviously can't.

^
|
|
There's your guy who doesn't know what Reason is capable of, let alone a synth. Now Ed, cut the childish shit out that's idiot shit that people start when their points are busted.

Oh no! I've been found out!

[MikeMcKew]

I would love to see the insane Combinator patch of Subtractors that matches any random Europa patch. Not saying it can't be done, but you can probably guess which one I'd prefer...

[EnochLight]

For a first-time buyer with no plugins? Europa and Grain are massive values and absolutely needed for those buyers.

As I mentioned before, a first time buyer could have a combi and a subtractor and do what most "plugins" could never do, period. Regardless, which buyers are you referring to? This buyer certainly has no need of either, certainly anyone who doesn't fall into the 'edm' category has no need. And there's a whole shitload of other categories musicians fall into.. so what about them?

A first time buyer is already overwhelmed with the vast array of stuff Reason offers at R6, not to mention R9.

R10? Upgrade $60. Europa $50 Grain $50. Done - sold 10x more units and everyone is happy. Thank me later.

No, a first-time buyer most certainly could not build Grain or Europa using <9.5 Combi, and to suggest that seems disingenuous. If the goal is to include everything possible in Reason to a first-time buyer to make music making fun and inspirational, I still stand steadfast that instruments like Europa and Grain are a no-brainer.

Also, your're suggesting a buyer spends $160 USD for the "same" Reason 10 upgrade, as opposed to the $129 USD that it costs now for the same? Seems like a poor choice. At any rate, we're talking about new customers (not upgrades). Keep up!

Anyway, right now if you own Reason Essentials, you can upgrade to full Reason 10 for just $99. Nice, eh? Or if you don't, you can still buy it on Amazon for less than $73 USD, and then upgrade to full Reason for just $99 - for a total cost of $172. Thank me later!

snap.JPG (49.58 KiB) Viewed 7618 times

[Psuper]

As I mentioned before, a first time buyer could have a combi and a subtractor and do what most "plugins" could never do, period. Regardless, which buyers are you referring to? This buyer certainly has no need of either, certainly anyone who doesn't fall into the 'edm' category has no need. And there's a whole shitload of other categories musicians fall into.. so what about them?

A first time buyer is already overwhelmed with the vast array of stuff Reason offers at R6, not to mention R9.

R10? Upgrade $60. Europa $50 Grain $50. Done - sold 10x more units and everyone is happy. Thank me later.

No, a first-time buyer most certainly could not build Grain or Europa using <9.5 Combi, and to suggest that seems disingenuous. If the goal is to include everything possible in Reason to a first-time buyer to make music making fun and inspirational, I still stand steadfast that instruments like Europa and Grain are a no-brainer.

Nor could a first-time buyer build a Tuba sound, so why isn't there Tuba-Licious modeled synth included instead of Grain? Certainly all the Tuba players out there could use it, there's no modern Tuba synth its incredible value for first-time purchases. You know well enough my meaning, so no more silliness you're stretching a bit too much for me to continue posting thorough responses, soon you'll just get repeats of my past quotes.

Also, your're suggesting a buyer spends $160 USD for a Reason 10 upgrade, as opposed to the $129 USD that it costs now for the same? Seems like a poor choice. At any rate, we're talking about new customers (not upgrades). Keep up!

Again you know well enough my meaning and we spoke about this before. The upgrade is $60 for whatever it offers outside of devices. If you need Grain, $50. If you need Europa, $50. EDM guys get Europa (tho likely the'd pick Expanse), regardless its a choice they make for what they want. The other 95% of musicians in other genres go for the other stuff. And no one is being forced to pay for hand-fed devices.

There's no argument anyone can make that will change my mind, this is all simple common sense as far as the eye can see.

[EnochLight]

No, a first-time buyer most certainly could not build Grain or Europa using <9.5 Combi, and to suggest that seems disingenuous. If the goal is to include everything possible in Reason to a first-time buyer to make music making fun and inspirational, I still stand steadfast that instruments like Europa and Grain are a no-brainer.

Nor could a first-time buyer build a Tuba sound, so why isn't there Tuba-Licious modeled synth included instead of Grain? Certainly all the Tuba players out there could use it, there's no modern Tuba synth its incredible value for first-time purchases. You know well enough my meaning, so no more silliness you're stretching a bit too much for me to continue posting thought-out responses soon you'll just get repeats of my past quotes.

What the..? You're the one that suggested <9.5 was "enough" for first time buyers and they could build Combis or shop ala cart for Europa/Grain. I'm pointing out - that's not the best package for first time buyers looking for the best value in tools, IMHO, is all. No stretching anything, and the only thing silly is your response.

Again you know well enough my meaning and we spoke about this before. The upgrade is $60 for whatever it offers outside of devices. If you need Grain, $50. If you need Europa, $50. EDM guys get Europa (tho likely the'd pick Expanse), regardless its a choice they make for what they want. The other 95% of musicians in other genras go for the other stuff, and if not they aren't being forced to pay for hand-fed devices.

If you feel that an "ala-cart" approach is best for new DAW users, I can see why you would think this. Propellerhead still think "giving them everything anyway" is a better approach, though. I tend to agree.

There's no argument anyone can make that will change my mind, this is all simple common sense as far as the eye can see.

I don't think anyone is trying to change your mind - I know I'm not. I was just offering a counterpoint to your argument. It's all good.

[aeox]

As I mentioned before, a first time buyer could have a combi and a subtractor and do what most "plugins" could never do, period. Regardless, which buyers are you referring to? This buyer certainly has no need of either, certainly anyone who doesn't fall into the 'edm' category has no need. And there's a whole shitload of other categories musicians fall into.. so what about them?

A first time buyer is already overwhelmed with the vast array of stuff Reason offers at R6, not to mention R9.

R10? Upgrade $60. Europa $50 Grain $50. Done - sold 10x more units and everyone is happy. Thank me later.

No, a first-time buyer most certainly could not build Grain or Europa using <9.5 Combi, and to suggest that seems disingenuous. If the goal is to include everything possible in Reason to a first-time buyer to make music making fun and inspirational, I still stand steadfast that instruments like Europa and Grain are a no-brainer.

Also, your're suggesting a buyer spends $160 USD for the "same" Reason 10 upgrade, as opposed to the $129 USD that it costs now for the same? Seems like a poor choice. At any rate, we're talking about new customers (not upgrades). Keep up!

Anyway, right now if you own Reason Essentials, you can upgrade to full Reason 10 for just $99. Nice, eh? Or if you don't, you can still buy it on Amazon for less than $73 USD, and then upgrade to full Reason for just $99 - for a total cost of $172. Thank me later!



snap.JPG

I'm trying to get a friend to buy this..

[EnochLight]

I'm trying to get a friend to buy this..

After seeing this at the Rack Extenionists FB group, I couldn't believe my eyes. I've already passed it along to a couple of people, too - that's just an insane deal for full-fledged Reason 10.

[Psuper]

Enoch, I was disputing Edgrips' goofy notion that Reason had to have cutting-edge hand-fed devices for the sake of staying current and relevant to appeal to new users -- which is an absolutely absurd notion.

Relevant to who? Current to what style of music? What exactly is "relevant" and current anyway? Does Ed or Propellerhead get to decide? If it works for you, should it work for everyone? Is it a new reese bass or a slick strings pad? Is current the new crop of vintage synths, or drum machine vocoding?

Grain? The mangle is better and $20. Europa? Expanse is better and I don't need either. Or maybe Europa is better. How about you just pay for Europa and Grain what does it matter your needs?

Here's exactly my quotes:

"The early Subtractor is still, by far, one of the most capable "synths" out there, and if its not fat/slim/cool/different/creative enough slap it in a combi and go wild! I can combi some subs and older devices and blow-the-fuck-away any "modern" synth-or-otherwise sounds with pure creativity alone, and likely so could most of you"

"a first time buyer could have a combi and a subtractor and do what most "plugins" could never do"

"A stacked subtractor 'obsolete synth' can make more modern/hip/cool/unique sounds than most any synth on its own."

I never said we can mimic a grain synth with a stacked subtractor. I said we can make modern sounds comparable to anything else out there that can make modern sounds - every device has its unique place, and even the oldest devices in Reason have modern life.

Reason is more than capable with even its most basic devices, which is why its still so compelling - NOT because it added Grain and Europa or Klang or whatever else.

1. Most people don't need a Europa.
2. Most people don't need a Grain.
3. Most people don't need a Klang.
4. Most people don't need a Tuba-licious
5. Everyone can buy the stuff they need.
6. Everyone needs DAW enhancements.

[EnochLight]

1. Most people don't need a Europa.
2. Most people don't need a Grain.
3. Most people don't need a Klang.
4. Most people don't need a Tuba-licious
5. Everyone can buy the stuff they need.
6. Everyone needs DAW enhancements.

I hear you. But... counterpoint:

1. Most people don't need a Europa. <= as a bread and butter wavetable/hybrid synth, most people do for modern music production.
2. Most people don't need a Grain. <= as a bread and butter grainular synth, most people do for modern music production. Also, the Mangle is an inferior product, IMHO. Tried it, and found Grain far more inspiring. For people buying a DAW for the first time, my experience is unlikely to be unique, IMHO.
3. Most people don't need a Klang. <= as a bread and butter rompler for what they do, this is stock stuff many DAW offer in the box. Reason didn't have anything like it. Now it does.
4. Most people don't need a Tuba-licious <= not relevant, but I appreciate the humor!
5. Everyone can buy the stuff they need. <= yes they can, and if you get most of it by buying one thing, that's even better usually!
6. Everyone needs DAW enhancements. <= 100% totally on board with you, but this does not relegate what does come in v10 as unnecessary, IMHO.

[EdGrip]

No, it is the kids who must learn to find Subtractors in combinators inspiring.

[QVprod]

This would lead me to believe that you have no clue what Europa can do if you think Subtractor is equally as capable. Surely we can’t be expecting every Reason use to interested in combinator modular routing to even attempt trying to match it, especially not new users. Subtractor is good, but it’s built for building far less complex sounds than what Europa can produce. Granted yes people rave about emulations of decades old synths, but that’s for specific character sounds and not synth capabilities. Software isn’t viewed in the same way when it comes to age. Thor was considered cutting edge when it was released. Nothing wrong with having a more modern flagship synth 10 years later.

Please don't start that kind of stuff, I'm not even going to respond deeply just re-read my statement. We're all talking about what Reason offers people, and the combinator is the core of the entire program. A stacked subtractor 'obsolete synth' can make more modern/hip/cool/unique sounds than most any synth on its own.

It’s not meant as an insult. Some people really don’t know. Believe me I’m as much of a “synthesizer is a synthesizer “ guy as can be but thinking practically, 1. the more complex Europa patches (like the morphing wavetables) are not possible with a combinator. The unison spread of Europa alone is very difficult to do without using a ridiculous amount of Subtractors and copying settings. 2. The sounds that are possible require complex routing. While the combinator is indeed an invaluable tool in Reason, I’d wager most users (especially not new users) are not interested in the complex modular routing need to make monster synths. If they were, there probably wouldn’t be a high interest in Expanse or Serum.

[Psuper]

4. Most people don't need a Tuba-licious <= as a bread and butter orchestral instrument, most people do for modern music production.[/color]

So wheres the rest of the orchestral default modeled instruments? Orkester is how many years old?

4.1 Most people don't need an actual good piano <= as a bread and butter 'catch all' instrument, most people do for most music productions.[/color]

So why just crappy radical for an instrument found in almost every modern song? Sure ain't worth a crap even when it was released. Wheres the updated one of that? And when it is released in R11 along with tubalicious, you should have to buy it.

4.2 Most people don't need Modeled Guitar <= as a bread and butter instrument, most people do for most rock music productions.[/color]

Guitar? Omg the rock guys are pissed off there's no worthy modern relevant guitar that comes with Reason. Add Guitar-a-thon to R11 too, just increase the price everyone should buy it.

You know this as truth.

[Psuper]

QVp I didn't take it as an insult, I simply meant what I explained before your last message - that I wasn't trying to mimic the synth -- just show that "relevant" and "current" can be done already, and that means different things for everyone.

[QVprod]

Psuper, your statement is contradictory. If “relevant” and “current” are relative, then who’s to say that sounds only doable by Europa and Grain type of synths arent necessary? That would depend of the type of music a user creates. Do I need Europa? No. But I don’t make EDM. But since I have it, do I use it? Of course.

[Psuper]

Psuper, your statement is contradictory. If “relevant” and “current” are relative, then who’s to say that sounds only doable by Europa and Grain type of synths arent necessary? That would depend of the type of music a user creates. Do I need Europa? No. But I don’t make EDM.

You just proved my entire point.

However I'm not saying what relevant and current are, and neither should anyone else, nor can it be defined. Its subjective and a minefield of styles.