Propellerheads might be waking up finally. Not that it means anything yet.

[EdGrip]

those people cannot be shoehorned into the fixed "hardware studio" paradigm because they've been using other *normal* DAWs all those years. On the other hand the "hardware studio" IS what Reason is about and what makes it special

Probably the thing to do there is to keep the click+drag anything-anywhere cable interface, but make it much cleaner, simpler, more modern and faster to navigate.
More diagram-like.
Alt-click on a connection to fly you directly to the other end of the cable.
Hover over a connection to show a pop-up tool-tip with the name of the device+connection at the other end.
Dragging a cable zooms out to a more global rack overview where devices are highlighted as you hover the cable connection over them. Lingering within any device zooms back in to the standard rack size so you can make the final connection.
Press a button or hit a keyboard shortcut to zoom out to the same rack overview any time; click on any device to hide all connections but the ones made with that device. Press K to toggle show/hide all connections.
When dragging or shift-dragging a device, use icons to clearly show the routing that will result from this action.
All that kind of thing. Simple, obvious stuff.

Navigation and workflow and general appearance of the rack could be massively improved and modernised, but as a GUI the principle is still totally sound. It's just that the execution is tired.

[Psuper]

Those are all excellent suggestions Ed -- those kind of quality improvements that's worth upgrading, it positively affects most everyone..

[scratchnsnifff]

I can not understand the constant desire for new features. You do not need most of it to make or mix music anyway. In the meantime, the status of all virtual studios has progressed so far that the developers are now considering almost unnecessary things to justify the price of an update. This is then presented in a nice video and everyone thinks that he has always needed it. And if another DAW brings out a new feature, then you're jealous and ask for it as well for your DAW. Why?

To be honest Reason could use some improvement, I find a lot of unnecessary clicks and scrolls

Renaming combinator knobs do not translate to the sequencer, so the user is always scrolling to the rack and to the sequencer just to see what the knob is named.
Also Renaming a combinator or mixchannel should auto rename the SSLs mixer track.
Not trying to be a pest or anything but Reason could use some tidying up in small areas like that I suppose I could understand always wanting to make and try new ideas rather than brushing up on old ones, but tbh there are a lot of little things like these that could use a quick fix

[EnochLight]

While Reason has matured... its an underwhelming DAW.

Naaaa. That's just silly.

Does it lack features? Absofreakinglutely. But underwhelming DAW?!!! Pfffttt... I disagree. It brought me back from Reaper, Live, and Studio One. It most certainly wasn't because it's underwhelming as a DAW.

I sincerely hope this is a sign that props realizes the direction they need to go, yet I can't help shaking the feeling the next "updates" will continue the trend of Props not listening but just offering lip service or shifting to mobile or whatever else we don't really need or want.

It's interesting. I've heard you and David say this before, but their actions don't reflect that. I could sit here and list examples, but clearly some still literally believe they don't listen to their customers and no matter what I list, you'll just say "yeah but, it took 15 years blah blah blah.."

I don't disagree that it takes them ages to get shit done, but not listen? Naaaaa - they do. They clearly only react with their own time table and plans, though.

PS - I do think you're reading too much into a simple marketing email. I got the same one.

[guitfnky]

can't wait until we get a DAW-centric update, and then get to listen to all the complaining about how there aren't enough new instruments or effects included. it's gonna be great.

[Psuper]

Naaaa. That's just silly.

Does it lack features? Absofreakinglutely. But underwhelming DAW?!!! Pfffttt... I disagree. It brought me back from Reaper, Live, and Studio One. It most certainly wasn't because it's underwhelming as a DAW.

Reasons' barebones DAW doesn't pull anyone in: the enjoyable toying around allows us to forgive its underwhelming DAW.

They clearly only react with their own time table and plans, though.

That's called 'not listening'. Regardless, actions speak and their "actions" on feature requests go largely ignored until they can't stand the cacophony... and still takes years.

I do think you're reading too much into a simple marketing email. I got the same one.

It'd be a shame if I was, I barely gave them the benefit of the doubt.

can't wait until we get a DAW-centric update, and then get to listen to all the complaining about how there aren't enough new instruments or effects included. it's gonna be great.

Haha you know there will be, despite 10 versions of primarily getting instruments and now as many Res or VSTs as theyd ever want.

I don't understand why anyone would want their instruments chosen for them, then told to pay for it - especially after the RE model was created. We're talking music here, a vast genre-laden minefield of unique styles and needs -- Propellerhead is guaranteed to isolate off a large majority of potential customers with any pushed default instruments as their 'selling point' at this stage in their game.

[hurricane]

When I saw that email I thought nothing of it. IMO, it didn't say much between the lines.

It would be pretty bold of the Props though, to deliver another content-centric update. It's pretty clear their current #1 priority as of late is to get as many NEW users as possible. But they can only pursue that objective so much longer before they really start upsetting their more "established" users. Therefore I expect the next major update of Reason to focus on actual new features, enhancements, and bug fixes. I cannot imagine them sitting in a meeting asking "What do we give them in Reason 11?" and the answers being "How about more synths and more loops?".

However, the only thing that concerns me is the possibility that they do actually add something major in Reason 11, but that they'll devote ALL their resources to making it an addition that focuses on one specific piece of the music making pie. So for example, if they chose to try to make this major push and attract the Ableton crowd, and create something like an Ableton-like loop browser, where the Props create a new loop mixer/loop launchpad, and it's like this big elaborate complex THING which joins the rack, mixer, and sequencer as window #4, and it's like the new highlighted #1 feature of Reason 11. And since they're still supposedly a "small" company and don't have the resources to give us a balls-to-the-wall update like Apple do with Logic, that will be the only major addition to Reason, thus leaving all non-loopers, like myself, in the dust. But then again it's kind of what they did with Reason 10. I certainly didn't want or NEED any more loops or synths. There was nothing in R10 that was for MOI. That update was for someone else. Sigh....but you can't please everyone, yeah yeah, I know...

Reason 6 was such a sweet update - a new mixer, audio recording & editing, the echo, pulverizer, alligator, the Line 6 amps, time stretching, pitch-shifting, interface enhancements, bug fixes.

All that came in ONE update.

Those were the good old days.

[NekujaK]

A DAWs only purpose is to facilitate the creation and recording of music. Period. I've been using Reason (and other DAWs) since 2.5, and the fundamental music-creation process is the same now as it was back then.

No amount of new features and bells and whistles is going to magically enable me to make better music or better recordings. They might make the process slightly easier or more convenient, but none of it is crucial. So I never understand all this hand-wringing over updates and new features, etc. Sure there are little improvements I'd like to see in Reason, but ultimately, they are just fixes of convenience and workflow streamlining. Reason enables me to create music right now, in its current state.

Every minute I spend worrying about what the Props are going to do next, or what features should or shouldn't be in implemented, is a minute I could've spent making music instead, which is the whole point after all.

[QVprod]

Reason 6 was such a sweet update - a new mixer, audio recording & editing, the echo, pulverizer, alligator, the Line 6 amps, time stretching, pitch-shifting, interface enhancements, bug fixes.

All that came in ONE update.

Those were the good old days.

Depends on what you had prior to version 6.It was technically 2 or 2.5 upgrades since Record (People seem to forget this existed) had a 1 and 1.5 version. Upgrading to Reason 6 from just Reason 5 was pretty much the equivalent of skipping a Reason version. Those who owned Record only really received the Echo, Pulverizer, and Alligator as part of the upgrade. Aside from incorporating Record into Reason, all Reason upgrades (save version 8) have pretty much been the same as far as features/enhancements.

[MannequinRaces]

Reasons' barebones DAW doesn't pull anyone in: the enjoyable toying around allows us to forgive its underwhelming DAW.

Pure speculation on your part. Do you have the sales figures sitting in front of you?

Propellerhead is guaranteed to isolate off a large majority of potential customers with any pushed default instruments as their 'selling point' at this stage in their game.

Again, pure speculation. Are you making decisions for new music makers looking for their first DAW, or other music makers who already own one of the others and want to try out Reason? The only crowd they might turn off is people thinking about upgrading and all they have to do is wait it out until a version comes along they want to upgrade to or jump ship or use Rewire, etc..

[MannequinRaces]

A DAWs only purpose is to facilitate the creation and recording of music. Period. I've been using Reason (and other DAWs) since 2.5, and the fundamental music-creation process is the same now as it was back then.

No amount of new features and bells and whistles is going to magically enable me to make better music or better recordings. They might make the process slightly easier or more convenient, but none of it is crucial. So I never understand all this hand-wringing over updates and new features, etc. Sure there are little improvements I'd like to see in Reason, but ultimately, they are just fixes of convenience and workflow streamlining. Reason enables me to create music right now, in its current state.

Every minute I spend worrying about what the Props are going to do next, or what features should or shouldn't be in implemented, is a minute I could've spent making music instead, which is the whole point after all.

Well said. I don't understand the hand-wringing either.

[ravisoni]

A DAWs only purpose is to facilitate the creation and recording of music. Period. I've been using Reason (and other DAWs) since 2.5, and the fundamental music-creation process is the same now as it was back then.

No amount of new features and bells and whistles is going to magically enable me to make better music or better recordings. They might make the process slightly easier or more convenient, but none of it is crucial. So I never understand all this hand-wringing over updates and new features, etc. Sure there are little improvements I'd like to see in Reason, but ultimately, they are just fixes of convenience and workflow streamlining. Reason enables me to create music right now, in its current state.

Every minute I spend worrying about what the Props are going to do next, or what features should or shouldn't be in implemented, is a minute I could've spent making music instead, which is the whole point after all.

While I agree, the bottom line is there just is a whole slew of people who work differently from how you described, and for them the tiny things become that much more important. I am in the same category as you, but I still find myself complaining about the minor convenience things. The whole idea is to come as close to perfection in efficiency as possible, and I wholeheartedly subscribe to that belief. With each new ugprade of Reason, I find myself making more music faster, or being able to do things that much more quickly. I think what Props (or any other DAW company) is trying to do is make the rate limiting step the musician himself/herself and not the DAW. And that I always welcome.

What Ed and Noplan mentioned above are precisely the type of things that would make Reason even more enjoyable, and slightly more useful and efficient.

[CR68]

I dont know why, but i think there will be a huge reason upgrade soon.
Everytime i had these feelings it became true... So lets See!

[Oquasec]

I feel like When Reason 5 came out it became a daw.
Cuz it's so deep that nobody can know 100% of everything about it and you can use those modules for everything.
Everything after that feels like a Christmas special

[EnochLight]

Reasons' barebones DAW doesn't pull anyone in: the enjoyable toying around allows us to forgive its underwhelming DAW.

Pure speculation, and the fact that they've survived this long as a company doesn't seem to line up with your statement.

They clearly only react with their own time table and plans, though.

That's called 'not listening'. Regardless, actions speak and their "actions" on feature requests go largely ignored until they can't stand the cacophony... and still takes years.

As I said earlier:

I could sit here and list examples, but clearly some still literally believe they don't listen to their customers and no matter what I list, you'll just say "yeah but, it took 15 years blah blah blah.."

Propellerhead is guaranteed to isolate off a large majority of potential customers with any pushed default instruments as their 'selling point' at this stage in their game.

Perhaps... or perhaps not. Has it occurred to you that Reason's primary customer base are the users that fall "in between"? I mean, just to remind everyone - Reason survived just fine - and flourished - prior to VST support. THAT SAID...

...I do believe that Propellerhead are at a tipping point, now though. More core DAW features are going to need to be added and refined, as the additional content just won't be enough. This is something I can agree with you on. What those features are or how long it takes is anyone's guess. But you can be sure that many additions will be a decidedly "Propellerhead take" on said features, meaning it may piss off just as many people as it satisfies.

I feel like When Reason 5 came out it became a daw.

I think what you define as a "DAW" differs greatly from the reality of the definition. Reason 5 didn't have audio track recording, let alone MIDI hardware support or any plugins. All it added was sampling, some content, tweaks, Kong and Dr. Octo (which replaced Dr. Rex) and... more of the same. Unless you mean when it was paired with Record, in which case I'd agree with you (to an extent)!

[Psuper]

Propellerhead is guaranteed to isolate off a large majority of potential customers with any pushed default instruments as their 'selling point' at this stage in their game.

Again, pure speculation. Are you making decisions for new music makers looking for their first DAW, or other music makers who already own one of the others and want to try out Reason? The only crowd they might turn off is people thinking about upgrading and all they have to do is wait it out until a version comes along they want to upgrade to or jump ship or use Rewire, etc..

Quote the whole statement.

I don't understand why anyone would want their instruments chosen for them, then told to pay for it - especially after the RE model was created. We're talking music here, a vast genre-laden minefield of unique styles and needs -- Propellerhead is guaranteed to isolate off a large majority of potential customers with any pushed default instruments as their 'selling point' at this stage in their game.

Taken in context it's plainly true. Reasons' entire package and marketing focused on the "Traditional Hardware Interface" and Electronic Music only crowd.

A DAWs only purpose is to facilitate the creation and recording of music. Period. I've been using Reason (and other DAWs) since 2.5, and the fundamental music-creation process is the same now as it was back then.

No amount of new features and bells and whistles is going to magically enable me to make better music or better recordings.

Neither does more spoon-fed default instruments. For many people, spoon-fed instruments aren't ever used, needed, or wanted.

However every single user, existing and new, can immediately use the types of features people are asking for as they pertain directly with the workflow, back-end, options, performance, gui -- and they undeniably aid greatly on how we achieve our results.

[demt]

hurrah propellerheads reason rah rah rah

[hurricane]

Every minute I spend worrying about what the Props are going to do next, or what features should or shouldn't be in implemented, is a minute I could've spent making music instead, which is the whole point after all.

Luckily I can do both things at once.

[QVprod]

I don't understand why anyone would want their instruments chosen for them, then told to pay for it - especially after the RE model was created. We're talking music here, a vast genre-laden minefield of unique styles and needs -- Propellerhead is guaranteed to isolate off a large majority of potential customers with any pushed default instruments as their 'selling point' at this stage in their game.

To be fair though, most DAWs do this. It's not a Reason specific thing for new instruments to be included in an update. Logic X had new synths, Studio One 3 had a new synth as well as an entire sample library for their updated rompler, Live 10 just came out and includes a new synth. All of which were selling points (granted among other things). This is normal behavior. That aside, I sincerely doubt that Reason 10 is going to be the model for every new release going forward though, nor have Reason upgrades been that way since V5. I'd argue that Reason's major selling point before and after RE is that it's a complete package for music creation. Thor, Maelstrom, and Subtractor are old. They simply wanted to introduce new content with Reason 10 to keep it fresh. Sure current users already had access to RE and VST, but that doesn't mean that the new content isn't useful or valuable to the majority of their current or even potential customers.

[Psuper]

I don't understand why anyone would want their instruments chosen for them, then told to pay for it - especially after the RE model was created. We're talking music here, a vast genre-laden minefield of unique styles and needs -- Propellerhead is guaranteed to isolate off a large majority of potential customers with any pushed default instruments as their 'selling point' at this stage in their game.

To be fair though, most DAWs do this. It's not a Reason specific thing for new instruments to be included in an update. Logic X had new synths, Studio One 3 had a new synth as well as an entire sample library for their updated rompler, Live 10 just came out and includes a new synth. All of which were selling points (granted among other things). This is normal behavior. That aside, I sincerely doubt that Reason 10 is going to be the model for every new release going forward though, nor have Reason upgrades been that way since V5. I'd argue that Reason's major selling point before and after RE is that it's a complete package for music creation. Thor, Maelstrom, and Subtractor are old. They simply wanted to introduce new content with Reason 10 to keep it fresh. Sure current users already had access to RE and VST, but that doesn't mean that the new content isn't useful or valuable to the majority of their current or even potential customers.

Oh I completely agree, it makes far more sense that Reason has done this as that's what Propellerhead always has done - added devices. Most other DAWs work on the "DAW" and the instruments are secondary extras (or premium upgrades) due to always having VST functionality.

However Reason now has what could be a thriving RE market and VST availability - its time to work on the DAW itself.

[Reasonable man]

Optomization improvements (the dreaded 'computer too slow') , sequencer tool improvements, some live performance features.

Reason is an oddity and because of that it really should force people to write music in a different way (in my humble opinion). When i hear generic commercial nonesense made in reason i cant help but wonder ...why? cant you write this stuff in a more linear daw where this stuff is effortless to make ...in a daw that dosn't provide you with all the modular magic and quirky rack extensions that are at your fingertips? why are you using reason for this?
It's like buying a GTI for 'comfort' ... buy a space wagon for comfort.
So much you can do in reason that cant be done anywhere else , use it for that . ATM theres no video in reason for eg your gonna have to use another daw for that anyway.
I've only been using reason (8) since 2016 so i didnt experience the lack of features up until then so my opinion can only be based on that and there are people using it here for alot longer than that so i respect their opinion and views . Just giving my two cent.

[Gorgon]

Pure speculation, and the fact that they've survived this long as a company doesn't seem to line up with your statement.

They've survived this long by making huge improvements to the software. Not by mindlessly tacking on devices like they're doing now.

It's like what Psuper said, they should put the RE's in the shop and make them optional. Period.

[MikeMcKew]

Is it really mindless, though? I want improvements to the core program as much as anybody (I've got my own running list, as most probably do), but I do think that these new devices and sample/loop packs were necessary. Speaking purely about Reason 10, I think a lot of people got hung up on and felt burned by the marketing surrounding the update. I say forget the marketing campaign of "biggest content upgrade ever" because it was just that: a marketing campaign. They're not going say anything less than that, and it's not what should be focused on.

Think of it from a non-Reason owner's perspective. Which market is more likely to buy into Reason (and is also likely larger): someone who is shopping around for their first DAW or someone who is looking to switch to a new DAW? It is very likely the former. The number of people interested in music production is always growing, but once they buy a DAW, they're pretty set. Basically all of them come with absolutely everything you need to make music. Some might be better or worse at some things, but it's all there. Once people make that first choice, it will be a while before they think about switching or buying a second DAW to use.

Now think of that person who is shopping around for their first DAW. They don't have expensive VSTs, sample packs, loop packs, or presets. When they buy the DAW, that's what they'll have. When looked at in that light, stock Reason was a bit comparatively weak up until Reason 10. It's touted as an all-in-one production suite for electronic music making, but when the flagship synth in Reason was introduced over a decade ago, I call that time for an upgrade. And while the sample and loop library was adequate before, there's absolutely a sufficient amount of that content in stock Reason now.

Of course that's all well and good for the new user, but it fell flat with a lot of existing users who own VSTs and REs. I totally understand that, and I do wish Propellerhead would've catered a bit more to existing users in these content upgrades. But I would also say that most existing users seem to be very happy with the new content as well.

All that to say, now that the content update is done (which I do think was justified), I have high hopes and honestly high expectations about improvements to the functionality of the core program. Propellerhead know what they're doing, and they definitely saw the controversy that erupted around Reason 10. If they go forward from here and continue to put out purely content upgrades, I will start putting more stock into the idea that they're not listening to their users as much as they should be.

Last point I'll make is that these things take time. I think Reason users have been spoiled to an extent, and now expect rapid high quality updates to a bit of an unreasonable extent. Take Ableton Live for example. Version 9 was released in March of 2013! It's been 5 years since the last integer update. Of course, one can't compare them perfectly, but it does indicate a bit of a difference in release schedules. Unless there's something cripplingly wrong with Reason, do we really need to be demanding constant updates? As I stated up front, I do think that Reason has some catching up to do when it comes to basic functionalities. I do believe it'll come in time...

Damn, I wrote another essay. Sorry about that.

[EdGrip]

One of Reason's selling points is that it's a complete "virtual studio" package that doesn't need any additional purchases to start making good music (especially electronic music.)
Potential new customers expect the inbuilt Instruments to be broadly competitive with current electronic music software instruments. Thor was not. Europa and Grain are. Simple. New devices should not only be optional purchases in the shop - that would be silly. By that logic ALL the devices in Reason should be optional purchases, and young newbies should have to work out from an uninspiring pallette of fuck-all what devices they need to buy before they can actually have fun, having never so much as programmed a 4/4 kick. By that logic there would be some arbitrary cut-off date - say 2009 - after which no new devices are ever added.

[Gorgon]

Now think of that person who is shopping around for their first DAW. They don't have expensive VSTs, sample packs, loop packs, or presets.

They get all that with Reason 9. Loads of samples, more than they'll ever use. And a crapload of devices. No need for Europa or Grain. At all.