The “problem” with impulse response for amp cabinet sounds

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sublunar
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017


Looks like he said the exact opposite of what you quoted, according to what you just posted. He said it does NOT sound different, and you implied he said it did.

Just asking for clarity in what can become a confused and emotionally heated debated (I guess because our very lives depend so much on tone?!?). ;)
You guys sure are a hoot.
sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
normen wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Less noticeable, not different. Like when you turn down the volume it‘s not different just because you don‘t hear it.
So a "noticeable" difference in the amount of reverb in a given sound doesn't "sound different" to you. Interesting.

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selig
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15 Dec 2017

sublunar wrote:
selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Looks like he said the exact opposite of what you quoted, according to what you just posted. He said it does NOT sound different, and you implied he said it did.

Just asking for clarity in what can become a confused and emotionally heated debated (I guess because our very lives depend so much on tone?!?). ;)
You guys sure are a hoot.
sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
So a "noticeable" difference in the amount of reverb in a given sound doesn't "sound different" to you. Interesting.
So are you - we’re a veritable laugh-fest between us!
:)


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normen
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15 Dec 2017

sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Your repeated use of the word perfect is quite curious. You obviously have very high opinions of the emulations and the people who set up the gear to make them for you.
I am using the word in the scientific sense - but I already explained that in the very post you quoted so I‘ll just leave it at that. If anything is unclear you can of course ask however.

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Marco Raaphorst
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
15 Dec 2017
And you can "move" from one impulse into another one by using 2 impulse responses. I guess because they are lineair. You need a few mic positions and will then be able to morph between them.
I think eventually you need modeling. It's the same with sampling - you can sample every note at many different levels but you'll always miss "something" in between the levels. With many multiple impulse you can get closer, but with modeling (which is not quite "there" yet IMO), you get every possibility.
Yes probably. I must say I get great results mixing a few IRs. Love doing that and create new IRs that way.
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sublunar
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15 Dec 2017

normen wrote:
15 Dec 2017
sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Your repeated use of the word perfect is quite curious. You obviously have very high opinions of the emulations and the people who set up the gear to make them for you.
I am using the word in the scientific sense - but I already explained that in the very post you quoted so I‘ll just leave it at that. If anything is unclear you can of course ask however.
Ah yes. Perfectly scientific, this opinion of yours. You must be a scientist.

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sublunar
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
sublunar wrote:
You guys sure are a hoot.
So are you - we’re a veritable laugh-fest between us!
:)
Sir, this comment is off topic. Please stay on topic and avoid engaging in flame wars.

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selig
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15 Dec 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017


I think eventually you need modeling. It's the same with sampling - you can sample every note at many different levels but you'll always miss "something" in between the levels. With many multiple impulse you can get closer, but with modeling (which is not quite "there" yet IMO), you get every possibility.
Yes probably. I must say I get great results mixing a few IRs. Love doing that and create new IRs that way.
I agree we get great results with the current tech. But for the purists out there, there is still one more major level we can achieve that will address their concerns.

I’m more of a “get it done” guy - I don’t wait for the “perfect” solution. I don’t have a separate room for guitar amps at preset, and neither do I have my ideal setup (still want that Goodsell amp I played on years ago): http://www.superseventeen.com

Until then, amp sims “get it done” for me just fine!


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selig
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15 Dec 2017

sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017

So are you - we’re a veritable laugh-fest between us!
:)
Sir, this comment is off topic. Please stay on topic and avoid engaging in flame wars.
How is mine off topic and yours on topic? Seems you've just outed yourself, so I will have to remind you to stay on topic Sir!
Selig Audio, LLC

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Marco Raaphorst
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Marco Raaphorst wrote: Yes probably. I must say I get great results mixing a few IRs. Love doing that and create new IRs that way.
I agree we get great results with the current tech. But for the purists out there, there is still one more major level we can achieve that will address their concerns.

I’m more of a “get it done” guy - I don’t wait for the “perfect” solution. I don’t have a separate room for guitar amps at preset, and neither do I have my ideal setup (still want that Goodsell amp I played on years ago): http://www.superseventeen.com

Until then, amp sims “get it done” for me just fine!


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For me the best sound I can get is with my old Koch tube amp + Palmer Speaker simulator using the unfiltered output and then use IRs. But direct guitar recording is way more flexible so I mostly use that. The difference is mostly a difference in feel I think.
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selig
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15 Dec 2017

sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
normen wrote:
15 Dec 2017


I am using the word in the scientific sense - but I already explained that in the very post you quoted so I‘ll just leave it at that. If anything is unclear you can of course ask however.
Ah yes. Perfectly scientific, this opinion of yours. You must be a scientist.
Really? How do you feel this adds anything to the positive vibe here? I appreciate the humor of your previous posts, and even joined in the fun - but now you're just trolling and baiting. Please stop!
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selig
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15 Dec 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
15 Dec 2017
selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017

I agree we get great results with the current tech. But for the purists out there, there is still one more major level we can achieve that will address their concerns.

I’m more of a “get it done” guy - I don’t wait for the “perfect” solution. I don’t have a separate room for guitar amps at preset, and neither do I have my ideal setup (still want that Goodsell amp I played on years ago): http://www.superseventeen.com

Until then, amp sims “get it done” for me just fine!


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
For me the best sound I can get is with my old Koch tube amp + Palmer Speaker simulator using the unfiltered output and then use IRs. But direct guitar recording is way more flexible so I mostly use that. The difference is mostly a difference in feel I think.
Indeed - I still record direct guitars even when I have the best amps available - nothing like a little insurance!
:)
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Marco Raaphorst
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
15 Dec 2017


For me the best sound I can get is with my old Koch tube amp + Palmer Speaker simulator using the unfiltered output and then use IRs. But direct guitar recording is way more flexible so I mostly use that. The difference is mostly a difference in feel I think.
Indeed - I still record direct guitars even when I have the best amps available - nothing like a little insurance!
:)
We can shake hands :)

I must say I am kinda lazy... plugging my guitar into the Scarlett is just simple and quick. And I am not a purist :) Ok, sometimes I am, but I then try not to be one.
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sublunar
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017


Sir, this comment is off topic. Please stay on topic and avoid engaging in flame wars.
How is mine off topic and yours on topic? Seems you've just outed yourself, so I will have to remind you to stay on topic Sir!
This is your second warning!

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sublunar
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
15 Dec 2017


For me the best sound I can get is with my old Koch tube amp + Palmer Speaker simulator using the unfiltered output and then use IRs. But direct guitar recording is way more flexible so I mostly use that. The difference is mostly a difference in feel I think.
Indeed - I still record direct guitars even when I have the best amps available - nothing like a little insurance!
:)
I only have an average space with average recording gear and yet, no matter what else I've tried, nothing sounds or feels as good as simply mic'ing up my specific combination of guitar/amp/cab and going to town.

The “'problem' with impulse response for amp cabinet sounds" is they're not actual amp cabinets. As the guitarist and recording engineer, emulations fall just a bit short of even a modest collection of real stuff.

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Marco Raaphorst
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15 Dec 2017

sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017


Indeed - I still record direct guitars even when I have the best amps available - nothing like a little insurance!
:)
I only have an average space with average recording gear and yet, no matter what else I've tried, nothing sounds or feels as good as simply mic'ing up my specific combination of guitar/amp/cab and going to town.

The “'problem' with impulse response for amp cabinet sounds" is they're not actual amp cabinets. As the guitarist and recording engineer, emulations fall just a bit short of even a modest collection of real stuff.
Have you ever tried https://www.celestionplus.com ?

Celestion is also claiming there's no difference between IR and the real thing.

I have A/B tested IRs and I can't hear the difference.
Marco Raaphorst

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selig
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15 Dec 2017

sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017
selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017


Indeed - I still record direct guitars even when I have the best amps available - nothing like a little insurance!
:)
I only have an average space with average recording gear and yet, no matter what else I've tried, nothing sounds or feels as good as simply mic'ing up my specific combination of guitar/amp/cab and going to town.

The “'problem' with impulse response for amp cabinet sounds" is they're not actual amp cabinets. As the guitarist and recording engineer, emulations fall just a bit short of even a modest collection of real stuff.
The same could be said for so many things. The problem with DAWs (you DO use a DAW to record your actual amp cabinets?) is that they are not actual recorders. They are emulations. But do they work "good enough" to capture your tone? Before you arrived at your ideal tone setup, did you still manage to make good music (or did you have to wait until everything was the best it could be before that could happen)?

I would agree emulations are not the "real thing", and add that (as an example) NOTHING sounds as good as a natural space recorded with the best mic/pre amps you can afford. I also feel that nothing sounds like real drums (I've played drums all my life). And there's really nothing like working on a real Moog Modular, though it's been a few years since I last put in time on one. I could go on…

Problem is, you don't always have access to the "best", and for many (myself included) getting 90% or better towards "perfect" works just fine. So I use digital reverbs instead of natural spaces, I use sampled drums instead of real drums, I use virtual synths instead of real synths, I use sampled strings instead of real strings (unless there's the budget for the real deal). And I get work done, finish projects, release records, make music.

So for me the question becomes, "Am I fooling my audience, or am I entertaining them?". And the answer always comes back "I'm entertaining them" (when I do it right).
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selig
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15 Dec 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
15 Dec 2017
sublunar wrote:
15 Dec 2017


I only have an average space with average recording gear and yet, no matter what else I've tried, nothing sounds or feels as good as simply mic'ing up my specific combination of guitar/amp/cab and going to town.

The “'problem' with impulse response for amp cabinet sounds" is they're not actual amp cabinets. As the guitarist and recording engineer, emulations fall just a bit short of even a modest collection of real stuff.
Have you ever tried https://www.celestionplus.com ?

Celestion is also claiming there's no difference between IR and the real thing.

I have A/B tested IRs and I can't hear the difference.
First I've heard of them - interesting for a speaker manufacturer to get into the impulse response game. What cabinets and mics were used, do they say?

From what I've heard, it's not the speaker/cabinet that's difficult to reproduce with an impulse. It's the amps, which are non-linear. Speakers can also be non-linear at high volumes, but the effect is more subtle than an amp. I mean, a speaker is supposed to reproduce whatever is thrown at it, and while it certainly adds color, it does so more linearly for the most part.

Thanks for the link, will definitely check out the Celestion stuff - what's your favorite and why?
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Marco Raaphorst
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15 Dec 2017

selig wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
15 Dec 2017


Have you ever tried https://www.celestionplus.com ?

Celestion is also claiming there's no difference between IR and the real thing.

I have A/B tested IRs and I can't hear the difference.
First I've heard of them - interesting for a speaker manufacturer to get into the impulse response game. What cabinets and mics were used, do they say?

From what I've heard, it's not the speaker/cabinet that's difficult to reproduce with an impulse. It's the amps, which are non-linear. Speakers can also be non-linear at high volumes, but the effect is more subtle than an amp. I mean, a speaker is supposed to reproduce whatever is thrown at it, and while it certainly adds color, it does so more linearly for the most part.

Thanks for the link, will definitely check out the Celestion stuff - what's your favorite and why?
There's a lot of info on their website.

It's indeed the amp. If you take a clean transistor amp for the sweep you might not get the same tone as well using a tube power amp.

But in the end there's nothing an IR is lacking imo. It is a very controllable and lively tone which totally sounds like a cabinet. Using a tube amp + palmer speaker simulator and IR creates a tone which is very hard to recreate with a cabinet and a mic. Finding the right cabinet, loudness, mic placement, is a lot of work. Finding the right IR is also a lot of work. Or making your own IRs. But once you are happy, things are so convenient.

I believer that IR is a great sounding copy of a cab. I never got better guitar tones than nowadays. And I am convinced no one can tell the difference in an A/B test. At least I can't.
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strangers
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15 Dec 2017

Cabinet IR's are pretty amazing. I own a lot of the Ownhammer IR's and couldn't be happier. One thing that was lacking for a long time was cab and mic sims. There were tons of great preamps but amp, cab and mic sims were heavily lacking.

IR's are a breath of fresh air for guitarists. Not only do they sound great but they're so convenient for anyone that doesn't have the luxury to mic an amp at any hour. Even for live use they're a huge help to run a feed from your amp to a load box/IR loader and to front of house.

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normen
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15 Dec 2017

strangers wrote:
15 Dec 2017
Cabinet IR's are pretty amazing. I own a lot of the Ownhammer IR's and couldn't be happier. One thing that was lacking for a long time was cab and mic sims. There were tons of great preamps but amp, cab and mic sims were heavily lacking.
Really? :geek: I found it to be the exact opposite, cab/mic was always pretty great (since convolution was possible in real time) but the preamps sounded a bit meh.

In the early days of digital distortion simulation the developers were still heavily fighting with aliasing and other things - resulting in simulations that either had no top end (e.g. Line6) or that had heavy aliasing and only started to sound really good with upsampling or at high sample rates (e.g. Guitar Rig). Nowadays they seem to have the artifacts under control when doing distortion.

And actually the cab/mic sim is still a straightforward convolution in pretty much all amp sims because as I said it captures everything about a mic/cab/room combination. So the only advance there could be the actual mic placements, which - as was stressed in this thread ;) - is very important for the overall sound.

So I guess what you hear there is that by now theres genuinely good cab/mic/room/placement setups that finally became available. Not so much the technology but the craftsmanship - I guess it had to get used to the new format :)

strangers
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15 Dec 2017

I'll take your word for it on the technical end. Still have to say cab/mic sims were lacking for a long time. I had a few preamps that sounded dull and lifeless through older mic/cab sims but those same preamps ran through some current IR's? Monsters at bargain prices.

I've still got two Mesa preamps. One being the Rackto and the other the Recto Recording Pre. The cab/mic sim on the recording pre doesn't do the preamp any justice. Avoid the cab/mic outputs and ran through some IR's or even current mic/cab sims and it sounds like something you'd want to hear. Nearly every guitarist had a Line 6 pod of some degree at one point. The preamp sims really weren't bad. The cab/mic sims were a different story. Their current line with IR loading capabilities is exactly what they needed since their mic/cab sims were their weak point.

That's not to say all mic/cab sims were bad. I've always liked Palmer gear and now we've got some really cool things like Two Notes which really steps up the mic/cab sim game. Grab yourself an old ADA MP1 or a Mesa Triaxis and pair it up with modern sims vs the same preamps through older amp/cab sims and there's no way anyone isn't choosing modern amp/cab sims. At the end of the day, great sounding music has been made with old and new sims. We're spoiled with the amount of sonic options we currently have.

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Marco Raaphorst
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16 Dec 2017

I think using a pre-amp + IR is not enough. you need power amp simulation as well.

I use tube amps + palmer PDI03 for this in combination with IRs.

Or use this mind blowing power amp in software: https://www.kvraudio.com/product/tpa-1-by-ignite-amps

The Ignite stuff is the best around. Beats anything else available and is even free!
Marco Raaphorst

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strangers
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16 Dec 2017

For recording, a poweramp isn't a must. You can get great results running a preamp into any IR loader. I doubt anyone would be able to tell a poweramp wasn't part of the chain, unless your very own sound called for some poweramp breakup. I don't have a Palmer unit anymore since I replaced it with a Two Notes Torpedo Live. I can run preamps or any tube amps 100 watts or under through it (the Live handles an 8 ohm load). I can get similar results running my Rackto or Recto Recording Pre into the Torpedo that I can if I run my Single Recto through the Torpedo.

The Torpedo Live is extremely flexible. Not only can it handle an 8 ohm load but you can load any IR's along with using any of the Torpedo's very own mic, cab, poweramp & room sims. I rarely use the poweramp sim when I'm using any of the preamps. That's the cool thing about what we have available today. You don't have to run the conventional setup to get great tones/sounds. You can leave what many would believe are vital parts out of the chain and listeners wouldn't have a clue. As long as it sounds good, there's no checklist.

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Marco Raaphorst
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17 Dec 2017

strangers wrote:
16 Dec 2017
For recording, a poweramp isn't a must. You can get great results running a preamp into any IR loader. I doubt anyone would be able to tell a poweramp wasn't part of the chain, unless your very own sound called for some poweramp breakup. I don't have a Palmer unit anymore since I replaced it with a Two Notes Torpedo Live. I can run preamps or any tube amps 100 watts or under through it (the Live handles an 8 ohm load). I can get similar results running my Rackto or Recto Recording Pre into the Torpedo that I can if I run my Single Recto through the Torpedo.

The Torpedo Live is extremely flexible. Not only can it handle an 8 ohm load but you can load any IR's along with using any of the Torpedo's very own mic, cab, poweramp & room sims. I rarely use the poweramp sim when I'm using any of the preamps. That's the cool thing about what we have available today. You don't have to run the conventional setup to get great tones/sounds. You can leave what many would believe are vital parts out of the chain and listeners wouldn't have a clue. As long as it sounds good, there's no checklist.
With the Palmer there's a huge difference when I use just a pre-amp. The Palmer is meant for taking speaker outputs as load box.

Back in the day I owned a Mesa Boogie Quad pre-amp. It had a direct out which offered great clean sounds and without any noise. Superb sound. 4 units high device. Super expensive. Heavy. Too hard to handle live so I sold it.

The Palmer PDI-03 doesn't sound like a IR. It lacks any ambience and resonance. There's evenness in highend and lowend which a cabinet doesn't offer. I have the impression that with any cab, the low end won't respond as fast as on the Palmer. Must say that the Palmer has a sound on it's own. And have used it for many years live and no sound mixer ever put a SM57 on the cab. They all preferred the Palmer live.

These days I can record the Palmer using both the filtered output and the unfiltered output. As 2 tracks. Offering many possibilities since I can apply and IR over the unfiltered output and mix both channels.

I agree that there's no checklist. You could just even use a pedal with a IR and get great results.
Marco Raaphorst

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motuscott
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17 Dec 2017

Just wanted to get a post in before this thing blows completely up. Done & done

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