Grain & Europa - why as REs, why such limited "backside"
Well, the topic says it all - why Grain & Europa (as awesome as they both are!) are treated by Reason as Rack Extensions and not a proper, native instruments in particular with their own dedicated patch format. And why their back side is so limited compared to older devices - or certain REs, like Expanse - e.g. there's no way to route audio to their effect modules?
Might they be IDT REs?
- esselfortium
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: 15 Jan 2015
- Contact:
Nope. IDT is a toolkit for building sample libraries, it isn't built to handle any of the things that Grain or Europa do.
The limited CV ports on Europa and Grain was a conscious decision, albeit a very questionable one.
Sarah Mancuso
My music: Future Human
My music: Future Human
And during the beta test, people asked for some typical dedicated CV ins and outs on them, to speed up workflow, and the Props acknowledged the request.
I seem to remember their explanation for the CV being the way it is is that there are so many parameters in the devices that people might want to CV, it made more sense to access them via the mod matrix than to give every possible thing its own CV socket.
It was argued that maybe some of the most typical things - envelope out, filter cutoff in - could have dedicated CV to speed things up. "Okay, but where do you stop?" was the counter-argument.
I think the discussion was left at the idea that we understand the rationale, but in that case could we have a couple more universal CV sockets in case we run out?
I seem to remember their explanation for the CV being the way it is is that there are so many parameters in the devices that people might want to CV, it made more sense to access them via the mod matrix than to give every possible thing its own CV socket.
It was argued that maybe some of the most typical things - envelope out, filter cutoff in - could have dedicated CV to speed things up. "Okay, but where do you stop?" was the counter-argument.
I think the discussion was left at the idea that we understand the rationale, but in that case could we have a couple more universal CV sockets in case we run out?
How many slots in the Matrix for CV output routing? 6 or 8?
Long live Nostromo with its Ubermatrix! Long live eXpanse with its UberCVs! Long live the devs that know what we want!
Reason12, Win10
-
- Posts: 728
- Joined: 05 Sep 2017
"Where do you stop?"...Are you serious!? That's a terrible excuse.
How about any number more than zero. Use the mod matrix for the rest, but if you only have 3 or 4 dedicated CV in then make sure the mod matrix can take 8 or 10 CV ins, not only 4. Incredible that 3rd party synths (eXpanse the obvious example) have better "reason-like" features than the native synths.
Just incredibly lazy by Props.
How about any number more than zero. Use the mod matrix for the rest, but if you only have 3 or 4 dedicated CV in then make sure the mod matrix can take 8 or 10 CV ins, not only 4. Incredible that 3rd party synths (eXpanse the obvious example) have better "reason-like" features than the native synths.
Just incredibly lazy by Props.
EdGrip wrote: ↑14 Dec 2017I seem to remember their explanation for the CV being the way it is is that there are so many parameters in the devices that people might want to CV, it made more sense to access them via the mod matrix than to give every possible thing its own CV socket.
It was argued that maybe some of the most typical things - envelope out, filter cutoff in - could have dedicated CV to speed things up. "Okay, but where do you stop?" was the counter-argument.
Why Grain and Europa were developed as REs? Props have developed the RE SDK. So why shouldn't they use it for their own synths?
Why these limited back sides? Maybe Props can tell us! For me this one reason to not upgrade to Reason 10.
Why these limited back sides? Maybe Props can tell us! For me this one reason to not upgrade to Reason 10.
We don't know why the backs are as sparse as they are, but it's not laziness. They aren't lazily-made devices. They are good devices, apart from the rejection of CV. It was a deliberate decision.
Basically, we dunno.
Europa was always going to risk criticism for trampling on eXpanse's toes, and it's *possible* that the lack of a busy back panel is a concession. But I don't think so.
Basically, we dunno.
Europa was always going to risk criticism for trampling on eXpanse's toes, and it's *possible* that the lack of a busy back panel is a concession. But I don't think so.
-
- Posts: 1423
- Joined: 21 Sep 2016
I wish Europa had a nice back panel like Thor, but I also feel like there are more important aspects like sample loading, an easier way to program the spectral filter of all 3 to a combinator, and if not sample loading. More wavetables. Iv been considering sending the props my library of wavetables that Iv made in hopes they could just throw them in :p I know it’s a long shot but for all that it can do I’m very surprised at how few there are. I think it would really shine if they added more of the dynamic tables. That would really set it apart: but on another note Europa and grain have made me more minimalistic with my approach on sound design. If I try I can usually fill up most if not All of thors matrix, at least Europa has the hardwired knobs
Mayor of plucktown
I understand that, but it was probably possible to develop them with RE SDK and then 'wrap' them as a native devices like Thor, Maelstrom or Subtractor. Main benefit would be their own, unique file format. With REs you can't tell which device is the preset / patch for.
BTW, I wonder how long before v10 Grain & Europa were ready. I have a feeling it was before 9.5, but Props encouraged a lot of people to upgrade to 9 to get VST support first and then encouraged them to upgrade again to 10 for the new instruments. If it was the other way around (Grain & Europa added in 9.5, VSTs in 10) those with older versions would only upgrade once. Smart business move, but dubious from customer point of view. Luckily I joined at v10
BTW2, are we sure that it's actually Props that made Grain & Europa? Maybe it was some 3rd party developer(s) that created them for Props?
That's an issue with all REs
Money makes the world go roundantic604 wrote: ↑14 Dec 2017BTW, I wonder how long before v10 Grain & Europa were ready. I have a feeling it was before 9.5, but Props encouraged a lot of people to upgrade to 9 to get VST support first and then encouraged them to upgrade again to 10 for the new instruments. If it was the other way around (Grain & Europa added in 9.5, VSTs in 10) those with older versions would only upgrade once. Smart business move, but dubious from customer point of view. Luckily I joined at v10
Maybe ... I don't care.
I'm aware, hence my question why not do it differently. They're in an unique position to do so.
Oh, I know. I'm in this business as well (banking)Ahornberg wrote: ↑14 Dec 2017Money makes the world go roundantic604 wrote: ↑14 Dec 2017BTW, I wonder how long before v10 Grain & Europa were ready. I have a feeling it was before 9.5, but Props encouraged a lot of people to upgrade to 9 to get VST support first and then encouraged them to upgrade again to 10 for the new instruments. If it was the other way around (Grain & Europa added in 9.5, VSTs in 10) those with older versions would only upgrade once. Smart business move, but dubious from customer point of view. Luckily I joined at v10
I don't care either, but was wondering maybe someone sees some design or graphical features characteristic to other developer
-
- Posts: 728
- Joined: 05 Sep 2017
OK, I retract my accusation of "lazy" and replace it with "frustrating, shortsighted and actually creating a disadvantage when considering what makes Reason worth using compared to other software".
Would be interesting to know which built in device and which RE has the most sockets on the backside...
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 1851
- Joined: 14 Sep 2015
- Location: Paris, France
I'm not sure about Grain, but Europa was designed and coded by Peter Jubel, co-founder of Propellerhead. Also creator of the Nord Lead at Clavia some twenty years ago. That's as 1st party as it goes
-
- Posts: 447
- Joined: 10 May 2016
This is because these devices aren't "normal" synths. The way the modifiers / spectral filter / harmonics, etc work on the sound from the generators isn't how something like Thor processes the audio (this was mentioned by Props somewhere, can't recall exactly - might have been the FB stream?) So having an audio input for processing on these devices isn't possible. Grain even more so because it's a sampler that loads sounds.
As for leveraging the effects at the bottom (distortion, eq, compression, etc), I'm pretty sure that was asked during beta but I'm having a hard time recalling the reason why it wasn't included.
That's a fair point. Thank you!RandomSkratch wrote: ↑14 Dec 2017This is because these devices aren't "normal" synths. The way the modifiers / spectral filter / harmonics, etc work on the sound from the generators isn't how something like Thor processes the audio (this was mentioned by Props somewhere, can't recall exactly - might have been the FB stream?) So having an audio input for processing on these devices isn't possible. Grain even more so because it's a sampler that loads sounds.
I wonder what the Props team thinks about the backside of VK-2? Maybe Props is trying to simplify Reason, and move away from the back-of-rack strategies used to date.
Fotizimo @ Instagram
on Surface Pro 4
Nektar Impact 25
Novation Launchkey Mini
Arturia SparkLE Spark Codec for Reason
on Surface Pro 4
Nektar Impact 25
Novation Launchkey Mini
Arturia SparkLE Spark Codec for Reason
For all who do not like Grain and/or Europa: there are several wavetable and graintable REs.
Or maybe the limitation is to allow some differentiation and give a particular edge to some REs in which they may directly compete?
- Exowildebeest
- Posts: 1553
- Joined: 16 Jan 2015
I suspect it's because the release of Reason 10 was rushed. Why it had to be rushed, I don't know. But both Grain and Europa feel unfinished as a result. I really hope they get updates, currently their backsides are shameful.
- Biolumin3sc3nt
- Posts: 662
- Joined: 16 Jan 2015
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: PhillipOrdonez, spacepluk, Trendiction [Bot] and 5 guests