Grain & Europa - why as REs, why such limited "backside"

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antic604
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13 Dec 2017

Well, the topic says it all - why Grain & Europa (as awesome as they both are!) are treated by Reason as Rack Extensions and not a proper, native instruments in particular with their own dedicated patch format. And why their back side is so limited compared to older devices - or certain REs, like Expanse - e.g. there's no way to route audio to their effect modules?
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jam-s
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13 Dec 2017

Might they be IDT REs?
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esselfortium
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13 Dec 2017

jam-s wrote:
13 Dec 2017
Might they be IDT REs?
Nope. IDT is a toolkit for building sample libraries, it isn't built to handle any of the things that Grain or Europa do.

The limited CV ports on Europa and Grain was a conscious decision, albeit a very questionable one.
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EdGrip
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14 Dec 2017

And during the beta test, people asked for some typical dedicated CV ins and outs on them, to speed up workflow, and the Props acknowledged the request.

I seem to remember their explanation for the CV being the way it is is that there are so many parameters in the devices that people might want to CV, it made more sense to access them via the mod matrix than to give every possible thing its own CV socket.

It was argued that maybe some of the most typical things - envelope out, filter cutoff in - could have dedicated CV to speed things up. "Okay, but where do you stop?" was the counter-argument.

I think the discussion was left at the idea that we understand the rationale, but in that case could we have a couple more universal CV sockets in case we run out?

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Loque
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14 Dec 2017

EdGrip wrote:
14 Dec 2017
I seem to remember their explanation for the CV being the way it is is that there are so many parameters in the devices that people might want to CV, it made more sense to access them via the mod matrix than to give every possible thing its own CV socket.
How many slots in the Matrix for CV output routing? 6 or 8? :lol: :thumbs_down:

Long live Nostromo with its Ubermatrix! Long live eXpanse with its UberCVs! Long live the devs that know what we want!
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chaosroyale
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14 Dec 2017

"Where do you stop?"...Are you serious!? That's a terrible excuse.

How about any number more than zero. Use the mod matrix for the rest, but if you only have 3 or 4 dedicated CV in then make sure the mod matrix can take 8 or 10 CV ins, not only 4. Incredible that 3rd party synths (eXpanse the obvious example) have better "reason-like" features than the native synths.

Just incredibly lazy by Props.
EdGrip wrote:
14 Dec 2017
I seem to remember their explanation for the CV being the way it is is that there are so many parameters in the devices that people might want to CV, it made more sense to access them via the mod matrix than to give every possible thing its own CV socket.

It was argued that maybe some of the most typical things - envelope out, filter cutoff in - could have dedicated CV to speed things up. "Okay, but where do you stop?" was the counter-argument.

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Ahornberg
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14 Dec 2017

Why Grain and Europa were developed as REs? Props have developed the RE SDK. So why shouldn't they use it for their own synths?

Why these limited back sides? Maybe Props can tell us! For me this one reason to not upgrade to Reason 10.

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Ahornberg
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14 Dec 2017

Ahornberg wrote:
14 Dec 2017
Why Grain and Europa were developed as REs? Props have developed the RE SDK. So why shouldn't they use it for their own synths?

Why these limited back sides? Maybe Props can tell us! For me this is just one reason to not upgrade to Reason 10.

EdGrip
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14 Dec 2017

We don't know why the backs are as sparse as they are, but it's not laziness. They aren't lazily-made devices. They are good devices, apart from the rejection of CV. It was a deliberate decision.
Basically, we dunno.

Europa was always going to risk criticism for trampling on eXpanse's toes, and it's *possible* that the lack of a busy back panel is a concession. But I don't think so.

scratchnsnifff
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14 Dec 2017

I wish Europa had a nice back panel like Thor, but I also feel like there are more important aspects like sample loading, an easier way to program the spectral filter of all 3 to a combinator, and if not sample loading. More wavetables. Iv been considering sending the props my library of wavetables that Iv made in hopes they could just throw them in :p I know it’s a long shot but for all that it can do I’m very surprised at how few there are. I think it would really shine if they added more of the dynamic tables. That would really set it apart: but on another note Europa and grain have made me more minimalistic with my approach on sound design. If I try I can usually fill up most if not All of thors matrix, at least Europa has the hardwired knobs
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antic604
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14 Dec 2017

Ahornberg wrote:
14 Dec 2017
Why Grain and Europa were developed as REs? Props have developed the RE SDK. So why shouldn't they use it for their own synths?
I understand that, but it was probably possible to develop them with RE SDK and then 'wrap' them as a native devices like Thor, Maelstrom or Subtractor. Main benefit would be their own, unique file format. With REs you can't tell which device is the preset / patch for.

BTW, I wonder how long before v10 Grain & Europa were ready. I have a feeling it was before 9.5, but Props encouraged a lot of people to upgrade to 9 to get VST support first and then encouraged them to upgrade again to 10 for the new instruments. If it was the other way around (Grain & Europa added in 9.5, VSTs in 10) those with older versions would only upgrade once. Smart business move, but dubious from customer point of view. Luckily I joined at v10 :)

BTW2, are we sure that it's actually Props that made Grain & Europa? Maybe it was some 3rd party developer(s) that created them for Props?
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Ahornberg
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14 Dec 2017

antic604 wrote:
14 Dec 2017
Ahornberg wrote:
14 Dec 2017
Why Grain and Europa were developed as REs? Props have developed the RE SDK. So why shouldn't they use it for their own synths?
I understand that, but it was probably possible to develop them with RE SDK and then 'wrap' them as a native devices like Thor, Maelstrom or Subtractor. Main benefit would be their own, unique file format. With REs you can't tell which device is the preset / patch for.
That's an issue with all REs
antic604 wrote:
14 Dec 2017
BTW, I wonder how long before v10 Grain & Europa were ready. I have a feeling it was before 9.5, but Props encouraged a lot of people to upgrade to 9 to get VST support first and then encouraged them to upgrade again to 10 for the new instruments. If it was the other way around (Grain & Europa added in 9.5, VSTs in 10) those with older versions would only upgrade once. Smart business move, but dubious from customer point of view. Luckily I joined at v10 :)
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antic604 wrote:
14 Dec 2017
BTW2, are we sure that it's actually Props that made Grain & Europa? Maybe it was some 3rd party developer(s) that created them for Props?
Maybe ... I don't care.

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antic604
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14 Dec 2017

Ahornberg wrote:
14 Dec 2017
antic604 wrote:
14 Dec 2017

I understand that, but it was probably possible to develop them with RE SDK and then 'wrap' them as a native devices like Thor, Maelstrom or Subtractor. Main benefit would be their own, unique file format. With REs you can't tell which device is the preset / patch for.
That's an issue with all REs
I'm aware, hence my question why not do it differently. They're in an unique position to do so.
Ahornberg wrote:
14 Dec 2017
antic604 wrote:
14 Dec 2017
BTW, I wonder how long before v10 Grain & Europa were ready. I have a feeling it was before 9.5, but Props encouraged a lot of people to upgrade to 9 to get VST support first and then encouraged them to upgrade again to 10 for the new instruments. If it was the other way around (Grain & Europa added in 9.5, VSTs in 10) those with older versions would only upgrade once. Smart business move, but dubious from customer point of view. Luckily I joined at v10 :)
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Ahornberg wrote:
14 Dec 2017
antic604 wrote:
14 Dec 2017
BTW2, are we sure that it's actually Props that made Grain & Europa? Maybe it was some 3rd party developer(s) that created them for Props?
Maybe ... I don't care.
I don't care either, but was wondering maybe someone sees some design or graphical features characteristic to other developer :)
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chaosroyale
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14 Dec 2017

OK, I retract my accusation of "lazy" and replace it with "frustrating, shortsighted and actually creating a disadvantage when considering what makes Reason worth using compared to other software".

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Jagwah
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14 Dec 2017

Can't help but think they are heading away from back panel connections in an effort to kill the stigma that Reason is a difficult DAW.

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Loque
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14 Dec 2017

Jagwah wrote:
14 Dec 2017
Can't help but think they are heading away from back panel connections in an effort to kill the stigma that Reason is a difficult DAW.
That is my feeling too. Than its time to move on...
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Ahornberg
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14 Dec 2017

Would be interesting to know which built in device and which RE has the most sockets on the backside...

WongoTheSane
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14 Dec 2017

antic604 wrote:
14 Dec 2017
BTW2, are we sure that it's actually Props that made Grain & Europa? Maybe it was some 3rd party developer(s) that created them for Props?
I'm not sure about Grain, but Europa was designed and coded by Peter Jubel, co-founder of Propellerhead. Also creator of the Nord Lead at Clavia some twenty years ago. That's as 1st party as it goes :)

RandomSkratch
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14 Dec 2017

antic604 wrote:
13 Dec 2017
And why their back side is so limited compared to older devices - or certain REs, like Expanse - e.g. there's no way to route audio to their effect modules?
This is because these devices aren't "normal" synths. The way the modifiers / spectral filter / harmonics, etc work on the sound from the generators isn't how something like Thor processes the audio (this was mentioned by Props somewhere, can't recall exactly - might have been the FB stream?) So having an audio input for processing on these devices isn't possible. Grain even more so because it's a sampler that loads sounds.

As for leveraging the effects at the bottom (distortion, eq, compression, etc), I'm pretty sure that was asked during beta but I'm having a hard time recalling the reason why it wasn't included.

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antic604
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14 Dec 2017

RandomSkratch wrote:
14 Dec 2017
antic604 wrote:
13 Dec 2017
And why their back side is so limited compared to older devices - or certain REs, like Expanse - e.g. there's no way to route audio to their effect modules?
This is because these devices aren't "normal" synths. The way the modifiers / spectral filter / harmonics, etc work on the sound from the generators isn't how something like Thor processes the audio (this was mentioned by Props somewhere, can't recall exactly - might have been the FB stream?) So having an audio input for processing on these devices isn't possible. Grain even more so because it's a sampler that loads sounds.
That's a fair point. Thank you! :)
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fotizimo
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14 Dec 2017

Loque wrote:
14 Dec 2017

How many slots in the Matrix for CV output routing? 6 or 8? :lol: :thumbs_down:

Long live Nostromo with its Ubermatrix! Long live eXpanse with its UberCVs! Long live the devs that know what we want!

I wonder what the Props team thinks about the backside of VK-2? Maybe Props is trying to simplify Reason, and move away from the back-of-rack strategies used to date.
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Ahornberg
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14 Dec 2017

For all who do not like Grain and/or Europa: there are several wavetable and graintable REs.

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joeyluck
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14 Dec 2017

fotizimo wrote:
14 Dec 2017
Loque wrote:
14 Dec 2017

How many slots in the Matrix for CV output routing? 6 or 8? :lol: :thumbs_down:

Long live Nostromo with its Ubermatrix! Long live eXpanse with its UberCVs! Long live the devs that know what we want!

I wonder what the Props team thinks about the backside of VK-2? Maybe Props is trying to simplify Reason, and move away from the back-of-rack strategies used to date.
Or maybe the limitation is to allow some differentiation and give a particular edge to some REs in which they may directly compete?

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Exowildebeest
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14 Dec 2017

I suspect it's because the release of Reason 10 was rushed. Why it had to be rushed, I don't know. But both Grain and Europa feel unfinished as a result. I really hope they get updates, currently their backsides are shameful.

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Biolumin3sc3nt
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14 Dec 2017

joeyluck wrote:
14 Dec 2017
fotizimo wrote:
14 Dec 2017



I wonder what the Props team thinks about the backside of VK-2? Maybe Props is trying to simplify Reason, and move away from the back-of-rack strategies used to date.
Or maybe the limitation is to allow some differentiation and give a particular edge to some REs in which they may directly compete?

Hmmm, that's another way of looking at it! Good call!

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