How much money (roughly) do Audio Engineers make?
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I ask for two reasons. One is because at one point long ago in the pre digital age I wanted to be one myself. But also because of the numbers of people here and elsewhere who fret (a lot) over the prices of upgrades or plugins.
I ended up being a computer programmer back in the late 80s and now I'm a SQL Server DBA. While occasionally I wish the tools I buy had this feature or that, i just reason it's a tool, I use it in my work and that's just the cost of doing business.
Admittedly I know little of the audio engineering field other than my hobby with both Reason and SONAR so I ask here - does the field pay so poorly that $129 is that much of a problem to get the latest and greatest version of Reason, or whatever a Rack Extension may cost that would make your jobs that much better overall?
I in no way wish to insult, demean or otherwise question any one person or persons motives or means - I just actually don't know what the pros make in this world and I'm thinking of doing this as my last career once I retire from the IT world.
I ended up being a computer programmer back in the late 80s and now I'm a SQL Server DBA. While occasionally I wish the tools I buy had this feature or that, i just reason it's a tool, I use it in my work and that's just the cost of doing business.
Admittedly I know little of the audio engineering field other than my hobby with both Reason and SONAR so I ask here - does the field pay so poorly that $129 is that much of a problem to get the latest and greatest version of Reason, or whatever a Rack Extension may cost that would make your jobs that much better overall?
I in no way wish to insult, demean or otherwise question any one person or persons motives or means - I just actually don't know what the pros make in this world and I'm thinking of doing this as my last career once I retire from the IT world.
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- Carly(Poohbear)
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Without getting too side tracked, my main bread and butter was with SQL server, use to work for the dark side, Microsoft, managing the largest SQL server in the world and all of their sales and Marketing stuff.
A $129 is a small amount to pay however $129 * 10 or 20 then just any other $129 is not so small, also with this content upgrade some people are disappointed as they don't really want content but optimisation, features and changes to the product as a whole. One way to look at it would you be happy if they came out with a new version of SQL Server and said the only real change is a lot more example DB's and a new look Enterprise mangler?
Having said all that I can't answer your question for you as I'm not in the industry.
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A $129 is a small amount to pay however $129 * 10 or 20 then just any other $129 is not so small, also with this content upgrade some people are disappointed as they don't really want content but optimisation, features and changes to the product as a whole. One way to look at it would you be happy if they came out with a new version of SQL Server and said the only real change is a lot more example DB's and a new look Enterprise mangler?
Having said all that I can't answer your question for you as I'm not in the industry.
PoohBear
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recent Music made with Reason
(Electronic) Poly Madness
(Electronic) Solar Dance
(Electronic) Into The Night
(Upbeat) The Players Took Me There Made in Reason 9 with heavy use of the players
(Electronic) 5 Steps (Video added) Updated
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Soundcloud Page ....... Nektar Mappings
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I have a lot of money tied up in Red-Gate SQL Toolbelt, but many tasks would take so much longer to perform without it. I think it cost me$1300ish upfront plus all the upgrades, for example. Totally worth it to me. But it isn't perfect either lolCarly(Poohbear) wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017Without getting too side tracked, my main bread and butter was with SQL server, use to work for the dark side, Microsoft, managing the largest SQL server in the world and all of their sales and Marketing stuff.
A $129 is a small amount to pay however $129 * 10 or 20 then just any other $129 is not so small, also with this content upgrade some people are disappointed as they don't really want content but optimisation, features and changes to the product as a whole. One way to look at it would you be happy if they came out with a new version of SQL Server and said the only real change is a lot more example DB's and a new look Enterprise mangler?
Having said all that I can't answer your question for you as I'm not in the industry.
PoohBear
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recent Music made with Reason
(Electronic) Poly Madness
(Electronic) Solar Dance
(Electronic) Into The Night
(Upbeat) The Players Took Me There Made in Reason 9 with heavy use of the players
(Electronic) 5 Steps (Video added) Updated
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Soundcloud Page ....... Nektar Mappings
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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You're comparing different things.
First and foremost, i don't know a lot of people that use SQL Server or Redgate for Fun... And FWIW, Microsoft and Redgate allow you to use it's tools non profit for 0 (SQL Server Community edition, Redgate community Edition), and like Microsoft and Redgate, there are hundreds of corporate software companies that give community editions for 0.
The thing is, as Reason and any other DAW can have a more fun approach even for personal non profit use, it will cost you money for an upgrade. So one either has something more of a bread and butter job that you think "Ok, i don't earn any money with reason, but i don't mind paying because i'm alright with what i earn from my job, and i have a lot of fun doing songs wit Reason", like if you have a very expensive hobby like Photography and now and then you buy a new Lense, or a filter, and it costs you 2000 bucks and you're allright whit that. OR you can make some money with Reason and sell some beats or arrange songs for other people, or so, and even if it is just from time to time, you end up making some money that pays your investment.
The problem is there are a lot of people, like the bedroom having fun producer or beatmaker that makes 0 and has really difficulty to get the latest updates.
What i mean is, most probably audio engineers, musicians, arrangers, producers, and so on are NOT complaining as much about the upgrade value than bedroom producers that work at macdonalds or something like that!
First and foremost, i don't know a lot of people that use SQL Server or Redgate for Fun... And FWIW, Microsoft and Redgate allow you to use it's tools non profit for 0 (SQL Server Community edition, Redgate community Edition), and like Microsoft and Redgate, there are hundreds of corporate software companies that give community editions for 0.
The thing is, as Reason and any other DAW can have a more fun approach even for personal non profit use, it will cost you money for an upgrade. So one either has something more of a bread and butter job that you think "Ok, i don't earn any money with reason, but i don't mind paying because i'm alright with what i earn from my job, and i have a lot of fun doing songs wit Reason", like if you have a very expensive hobby like Photography and now and then you buy a new Lense, or a filter, and it costs you 2000 bucks and you're allright whit that. OR you can make some money with Reason and sell some beats or arrange songs for other people, or so, and even if it is just from time to time, you end up making some money that pays your investment.
The problem is there are a lot of people, like the bedroom having fun producer or beatmaker that makes 0 and has really difficulty to get the latest updates.
What i mean is, most probably audio engineers, musicians, arrangers, producers, and so on are NOT complaining as much about the upgrade value than bedroom producers that work at macdonalds or something like that!
You always adapt your price to the customer and venue. I do mainly live work so thats what I can talk about.
Problem these days is that any idiot with a mixing desk and a few cheap mics and speakers thinks they can do it and offer to do it at prices that wreck the value of the work. Around 350€ per night would be "normal" for medium sized productions but of course if you managed to make a name of yourself you can go in higher. I usually take around 45-65€ per hour, depending on the kind of work and customer. And no, nobody cares if you're a Tonmeister, Master of Arts or a bum that learned it on the street - the good productions know that the actual skill isn't written on paper and the cheap productions just look at your price.
About the actual topic you bring up with this... Its kind of cute but I guess you know very well that these complaints are not coming from people who make their money with music Those people know very well what they need and if something is worth its price for them and they buy it or they don't. If I want a certain compressor sound I will buy the compressor that gives me that sound if my overall revenue allows it. If some musician wants a certain instrument he will pay that price and then that automatically means its worth it.
I think most people that have such issues are also those that still look for that synth or compressor that makes their music better
Problem these days is that any idiot with a mixing desk and a few cheap mics and speakers thinks they can do it and offer to do it at prices that wreck the value of the work. Around 350€ per night would be "normal" for medium sized productions but of course if you managed to make a name of yourself you can go in higher. I usually take around 45-65€ per hour, depending on the kind of work and customer. And no, nobody cares if you're a Tonmeister, Master of Arts or a bum that learned it on the street - the good productions know that the actual skill isn't written on paper and the cheap productions just look at your price.
About the actual topic you bring up with this... Its kind of cute but I guess you know very well that these complaints are not coming from people who make their money with music Those people know very well what they need and if something is worth its price for them and they buy it or they don't. If I want a certain compressor sound I will buy the compressor that gives me that sound if my overall revenue allows it. If some musician wants a certain instrument he will pay that price and then that automatically means its worth it.
I think most people that have such issues are also those that still look for that synth or compressor that makes their music better
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You're right, I suspect many here are hobbyists and not making their primary living in the music industry.normen wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017You always adapt your price to the customer and venue. I do mainly live work so thats what I can talk about.
Problem these days is that any idiot with a mixing desk and a few cheap mics and speakers thinks they can do it and offer to do it at prices that wreck the value of the work. Around 350€ per night would be "normal" for medium sized productions but of course if you managed to make a name of yourself you can go in higher. I usually take around 45-65€ per hour, depending on the kind of work and customer. And no, nobody cares if you're a Tonmeister, Master of Arts or a bum that learned it on the street - the good productions know that the actual skill isn't written on paper and the cheap productions just look at your price.
About the actual topic you bring up with this... Its kind of cute but I guess you know very well that these complaints are not coming from people who make their money with music Those people know very well what they need and if something is worth its price for them and they buy it or they don't. If I want a certain compressor sound I will buy the compressor that gives me that sound if my overall revenue allows it. If some musician wants a certain instrument he will pay that price and then that automatically means its worth it.
I think most people that have such issues are also those that still look for that synth or compressor that makes their music better
But I still did wonder what an engineer could make, or at least a range because I'd like to take a crack at it in my retirement years. While I wouldn't need it to be a large income, neither could it be a total drain. You know, just for friends or in the local area for people who just want to record their music who don't have big dollars for a true pro. At 58, the Audio Engineering Professional ship sailed long ago for me I think.
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Good points you make here. The photography analogy was pretty spot on too.mcatalao wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017You're comparing different things.
First and foremost, i don't know a lot of people that use SQL Server or Redgate for Fun... And FWIW, Microsoft and Redgate allow you to use it's tools non profit for 0 (SQL Server Community edition, Redgate community Edition), and like Microsoft and Redgate, there are hundreds of corporate software companies that give community editions for 0.
The thing is, as Reason and any other DAW can have a more fun approach even for personal non profit use, it will cost you money for an upgrade. So one either has something more of a bread and butter job that you think "Ok, i don't earn any money with reason, but i don't mind paying because i'm alright with what i earn from my job, and i have a lot of fun doing songs wit Reason", like if you have a very expensive hobby like Photography and now and then you buy a new Lense, or a filter, and it costs you 2000 bucks and you're allright whit that. OR you can make some money with Reason and sell some beats or arrange songs for other people, or so, and even if it is just from time to time, you end up making some money that pays your investment.
The problem is there are a lot of people, like the bedroom having fun producer or beatmaker that makes 0 and has really difficulty to get the latest updates.
What i mean is, most probably audio engineers, musicians, arrangers, producers, and so on are NOT complaining as much about the upgrade value than bedroom producers that work at macdonalds or something like that!
I actually did use SQL Server Standard as a hobby long ago, because I wanted to reinvent myself as a true DBA when I got sick to death of being a code toad. Best move I ever made really.
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Your question assumes that most people use reason because they're audio Engineers as opposed to most people using it because they're hobbyists. Reason definitely definitely did not start off as a audio engineer grade piece of software.Siberian Khatru wrote:I ask for two reasons. One is because at one point long ago in the pre digital age I wanted to be one myself. But also because of the numbers of people here and elsewhere who fret (a lot) over the prices of upgrades or plugins.
I ended up being a computer programmer back in the late 80s and now I'm a SQL Server DBA. While occasionally I wish the tools I buy had this feature or that, i just reason it's a tool, I use it in my work and that's just the cost of doing business.
Admittedly I know little of the audio engineering field other than my hobby with both Reason and SONAR so I ask here - does the field pay so poorly that $129 is that much of a problem to get the latest and greatest version of Reason, or whatever a Rack Extension may cost that would make your jobs that much better overall?
I in no way wish to insult, demean or otherwise question any one person or persons motives or means - I just actually don't know what the pros make in this world and I'm thinking of doing this as my last career once I retire from the IT world.
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It started out as a tool for musicians in an audio engineering environment. Specifically being used in ProTools as a synth rack. I think thats the functionality that actually made it big. The "bedroom producers" in those days were still used to 19" samplers, synths, and Mackie desks so Reason transferred that right to the digital studios.
Sure theres always people toying with such software but Reason was never priced as a "toy", Rebirth maybe was.
Nowadays people will complain about having to pay $1 for a game or app that cost tens of millions to make that would have been happily purchased by most people for $30 just ten years ago.
I think it's more about price perception than anything.
I think it's more about price perception than anything.
If it isn't an Audio engineering tool it's only for 3 reasons, it's history and start as a Digital Virtual Instrument and second because most studios already invested huge amounts of money on other stuff. The fact that audio editing in Reason is almost in-existent also doesn't help though i believe a lot of what was done in audio editing was due to poor Audio Cards who created recording errors.
Anyway, just to tell you my personal experience, i consider myself a Jack of all trades. I compose songs, for me and other people, arrange, play a bunch of instruments and also mix and master. Pricing in Portugal has NOTHING to do with prices on other countries. You either are doing stuff with labels, or connected to a big studio, or people with small project studios are doing 10 to 25 eur/hour and even at that rates they have the studios empty. There are studios doing 500 € packages for a full album. That or people simply don't do stuff because as Normen said, most people don't value the work of someone with experience and knowledge.
My prices for arrangements are a joke too, most times I'm just covering expenses. A Pop arrangement that will take me at least 10 to 20 work hours can't get much more than 200 eur and i know if i go higher i won't get the gig. For some stuff i can get to 300 or 400 eur for a complete song with arranging, recording the singer, mixing and mastering, and i even get the client to say i'm too expensive. Sometimes, i preferer not doing it. It's just too tiring to work with some "artists", and something that could take hour to do takes ages. :/
Anyway, just to tell you my personal experience, i consider myself a Jack of all trades. I compose songs, for me and other people, arrange, play a bunch of instruments and also mix and master. Pricing in Portugal has NOTHING to do with prices on other countries. You either are doing stuff with labels, or connected to a big studio, or people with small project studios are doing 10 to 25 eur/hour and even at that rates they have the studios empty. There are studios doing 500 € packages for a full album. That or people simply don't do stuff because as Normen said, most people don't value the work of someone with experience and knowledge.
My prices for arrangements are a joke too, most times I'm just covering expenses. A Pop arrangement that will take me at least 10 to 20 work hours can't get much more than 200 eur and i know if i go higher i won't get the gig. For some stuff i can get to 300 or 400 eur for a complete song with arranging, recording the singer, mixing and mastering, and i even get the client to say i'm too expensive. Sometimes, i preferer not doing it. It's just too tiring to work with some "artists", and something that could take hour to do takes ages. :/
Yeah, I hate it when people push your price down and then keep coming back with "Oh can this be added" "Oh could you change this please" - I went to just saying "Nope, *this* is what you paid for, everything else is extra".
Exactly.
Not doing this for a living, allows me to have that prerogative. Not only i can choose not to do it because, well, i actually don't need the money to pay my bills (they are already payed by the other job) but i can also choose the projects where I'm working and above all the people who i'm working with.
Still this being a hobby and as people that come in to my studio leave with a good result, it would be stupid not to ask for money. But i try to keep away from the 20 eur rates and so on i don't do packages, and most times i have people i know in the studio.
I have a friend who comes to the studio and for 70 eur gets out with a fully produced song. It's a friend, he has a huge discount, but i couldn't make it free as i have cost for doing his stuff, i payed for the gear in advance, and the time i spend with his music, i'm not spending in mine or being with my family and so on. But even friends sometimes don't get the gist of this, and he "promoted" my studio as a very cheap option for a friend of his. I had to explain him that those values were only because he was my friend and they wouldn't apply to third parties even if they were his friends. I must say i took some offense that he was doing the prices for my work.
Suffice to say... I didn't get the gig, and it didn't bother me.
Not doing this for a living, allows me to have that prerogative. Not only i can choose not to do it because, well, i actually don't need the money to pay my bills (they are already payed by the other job) but i can also choose the projects where I'm working and above all the people who i'm working with.
Still this being a hobby and as people that come in to my studio leave with a good result, it would be stupid not to ask for money. But i try to keep away from the 20 eur rates and so on i don't do packages, and most times i have people i know in the studio.
I have a friend who comes to the studio and for 70 eur gets out with a fully produced song. It's a friend, he has a huge discount, but i couldn't make it free as i have cost for doing his stuff, i payed for the gear in advance, and the time i spend with his music, i'm not spending in mine or being with my family and so on. But even friends sometimes don't get the gist of this, and he "promoted" my studio as a very cheap option for a friend of his. I had to explain him that those values were only because he was my friend and they wouldn't apply to third parties even if they were his friends. I must say i took some offense that he was doing the prices for my work.
Suffice to say... I didn't get the gig, and it didn't bother me.
- Carly(Poohbear)
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So I guess my thread was moved. I further guess whomever moves threads doesn't alert you to this fact. Noted.
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It looks like a mod moved it to the appropriate forum is all. And looks like we even received a report of it being in the wrong forum because we were too slow in noticingSiberian Khatru wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017So I guess my thread was moved. I further guess whomever moves threads doesn't alert you to this fact. Noted.
Sorry the system doesn't alert when something is moved. Notifications for topic activity, both here and email, will still lead you to the topic and it's new location.
Otherwise, a good tip is to use the 'New Posts' link, or go to 'Quick links' and choose 'your posts' to see topics in which you are active. The Reason General forum is reserved for topics about Reason.
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It's all good, no worries. Just thought it was deleted at first and I'm like "why?" Loljoeyluck wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017It looks like a mod moved it to the appropriate forum is all. And looks like we even received a report of it being in the wrong forum because we were too slow in noticingSiberian Khatru wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017So I guess my thread was moved. I further guess whomever moves threads doesn't alert you to this fact. Noted.
Sorry the system doesn't alert when something is moved. Notifications for topic activity, both here and email, will still lead you to the topic and it's new location.
Otherwise, a good tip is to use the 'New Posts' link, or go to 'Quick links' and choose 'your posts' to see topics in which you are active. The Reason General forum is reserved for topics about Reason.
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Siberian Khatru wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017It's all good, no worries. Just thought it was deleted at first and I'm like "why?" Loljoeyluck wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017
It looks like a mod moved it to the appropriate forum is all. And looks like we even received a report of it being in the wrong forum because we were too slow in noticing
Sorry the system doesn't alert when something is moved. Notifications for topic activity, both here and email, will still lead you to the topic and it's new location.
Otherwise, a good tip is to use the 'New Posts' link, or go to 'Quick links' and choose 'your posts' to see topics in which you are active. The Reason General forum is reserved for topics about Reason.
I've flagged, locked, and put a timer on imminent destruction for this thread due to mentioning SQL at such a high volume.
jk, jk. I think Selig and QVProd would be good people here to ask. I'm in the Bay Area and some of the audio engineers I know don't always have consistent work so they have side hustles and they're pretty established and good at what they do.
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Your ears will be shot. But apparently this is ok...Siberian Khatru wrote: ↑17 Oct 2017I'm thinking of doing this as my last career once I retire from the IT world.
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AND OF COURSE, I think we have all come to expect that there are SOME workflow enhancements in every upgrade.
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AND OF COURSE, I think we have all come to expect that there are SOME workflow enhancements in every upgrade.
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