I need to think about these options as I just finished a mix and drums are way too prominent, something isn't right. Thanks though, I'll see what I can do. By way of example (pretty sure I did a lot more wrong in the mix, but it sounded well balanced from the studio monitors):LABONERECORDINGS wrote:Heavy curtains with blackout can work some wondered, but in a room with lots of windows... imagine that might get pretty warm . Maybe hessian draped (think 'arabian tent', with the fabric curving to soften some of those hard glass reflections).ThisIsNotTheMusic wrote:I have part of a large elongated rectangular 70's sunroom with too many windows and awful acoustics to play with. I guess there are always ways to improve it.
Thing is you don't have to go crazy, plus depends on the size of the room. You could perhaps make some room divider style sound boards to 'block' the window reflections, plus that way they're not permanent. You could space them off the wall by say perhaps 4 to 6 inches, any sound that does go through the boards have to reflect and come back through the board again, so creating a buffer plus airspace makes it harder for the sound to come back as a reflection. Or instead of divider boards stood on the floor, why not make some hanging ones? that way you could create a frame with hardwood of a couple inches deep, get some Rockwool board and make then say 3ft / 4ft long x 18in to 2ft wide, and cover them in a fabric of your choice (the stuff you can breathe through would be ideal so the sound passes through and into the Rockwool), and by hanging them you could create a nice environment as well as a sort of feature to add colour / tones to your working area. Hanging with 2x chains and hooks into the ceiling struts may work to control some of those reflections, cost is relatively cheap (depending on the number of boards, Rockwool and fabric of course). We used combat fabric for ours over a grey fabric (we had red / white / black / grey colour scheme in Lab One, Lab two is now blues blacks whites), and we done a RoomEqWizard test yesterday and we're really happy with the results since we've got a nearly flat room response (sine sweep check, looked pretty good and not many if any problematic spikes or nulls), based on the ideal seating spot.
We're kinda lucky we've only got the 1 main window (which the 48in screen now practically hides so it really is a man cave).
Also volume level is king - you don't have to be blaring loud, in fact if you right at a quieter level, you'll find you can make much more dynamic music, without room compromising.
Studio Desks
- ThisIsNotTheMusic
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- Marco Raaphorst
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ThisIsNotTheMusic wrote: I need to think about these options as I just finished a mix and drums are way too prominent, something isn't right. Thanks though, I'll see what I can do. By way of example (pretty sure I did a lot more wrong in the mix, but it sounded well balanced from the studio monitors):
On which system were you able to tell "drums are way too prominent"? If it's on your own system then thaat system is perfect for you because it tells you exactly what you want to know/hear.
- LABONERECORDINGS
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That's true in regards to louder = more direct of course, but with stronger reflections on top, would/might be a bit more 'cave-like' (exaggerated example), since a glass sunroom was mentioned as an area the poster referred to - harder surfaces = easier for sound to reflect. Whispering in a cave would have minimal to no echos but of course quieter level so harder to hear (Fletcher in effect) - would be a steady balance to get to the point where the direct sound would be ideal with minimal reflections, but swapping the cave walls with mattresses would help dampen the reflections again. Go too far and the ambiance gets lost and your head feels full of cotton (plus the blood pumping round in a deadened room isn't the best lol).selig wrote: Yes it's true that more volume means louder reflections, but it's also true that more volume means more direct signal as well (or are you suggesting otherwise?).
Yet you seem to be suggesting that the relationship between the two changes, which I would think is impossible.
Can you provide more info (or links) that discuss this further?
Louder volume = louder reflections (possibly more reflections?) Notch that down a touch and, to us, this may help 'hide' the reflections (even a little to start with) - furnishing, curtains, acoustic panels can aid dampen and tame too (as we know). A room in which you have a lot of hard surfaces, you want to try and reduce echoes ideally, so if easier to bring speakers closer and turn them down in relation that's a start (if you want to turn them down that is). A living room with sofas + bookcases, that sort of thing can also help break reflections. Symmetry although is nice isn't ideal due to ping-ponging possibilities. We know you guys (Marco & Selig) know this already, it's good to write this down for other onlookers, not to take as gospel but some might find these type of practices can help them out (every case is individual). Perception of sound though doesn't change in physical sense, it's only in our heads that quieter = less 'effect' but it's actually us that can't hear the reflections going on.
The more volume you want the more treatment you may need to counteract the unwanted reflections. That's pretty much what we're getting at, balance of compromise of what you can achieve.
Last edited by LABONERECORDINGS on 06 Jun 2017, edited 4 times in total.
- LABONERECORDINGS
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Have you compared similar music in the genre you're making on your setup? might be more revealing, or you might be biasing opinion a little on the drums - if they're too prominent, drop back say -3dB on the drum buss (perhaps on the insert trim best to prevent messing up any automation), bounce as that and then import both 'loud' and 'test' versions into Reason as a new project onto two audio tracks (same tempo) slice up every 4 bars so you can hear the 'swap' on the drums level between each version. If still cooking but better being that bit quieter you know you're going in the right direction. If they sound weaker or are getting lost you know you've gone too far. Remember 3dB on the drum buss is 3dB off all the sounds going through it, so can be quite a bit and may be making all the difference. Also listening level might be biasing too, try turning the master down when you compare by say 3dB again just as a guide so you can 'feel' around the track at different levels. Also might be the tone of the drum kit you've used, might need some gentle tone controlling (eq shelfing) to help tame the prominence. Pan positioning too may be key - are the drums all mono / central? Not saying you've done this, just ruling out a few possibilities why you feel the drums are too 'up front'. The other instruments / vocals / fx etc might be all in the same sound space across the panorama, so the drums might be 'sitting' on top since they can be the most dynamic in a short space (which might be why you feel they are louder, could it be the transients are smacking?)ThisIsNotTheMusic wrote:I need to think about these options as I just finished a mix and drums are way too prominent, something isn't right. Thanks though, I'll see what I can do. By way of example (pretty sure I did a lot more wrong in the mix, but it sounded well balanced from the studio monitors)
Which monitors are you using, out of interest? Oh and apologies for the slight derailment, we can discuss mix options on another thread
Keep at it though, we're all here to help, guide and learn off each other to better ourselves
- LABONERECORDINGS
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Noting the speaker angles in relation to the sitting area.... seem to point the bass speaker so it ends up above your head? Elevated speakers should be angled so your ear should be between bass / mid speaker and tweeter or the tweeter itself (well it's sort of what we do, our Mackies are pretty hefty so as they're angled the top of the bass cone edge meets our eye focal point, but we like bass and it works for us). Wondering if the speakers you're using are part of the drum levelling issue...? We take it you have tall speakers (black ones) vertically in the corners too?
When you mentioned the drums are too prominent, was that during listening on headphones vs monitors?
When you mentioned the drums are too prominent, was that during listening on headphones vs monitors?
I've never heard that before. I love reading up on all things pertaining to room acoustics, and would love to read about this concept if you care to share!LABONERECORDINGS wrote: The more volume you want the more treatment you may need to counteract the unwanted reflections. That's pretty much what we're getting at, balance of compromise of what you can achieve.
Until then I'm with Marco (and acousticians I've met) in that rooms are linear and there's no possibly way for the playback volume to affect reflections or room treatments.
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Selig Audio, LLC
Getting back on topic, anyone with experience with Zoar desks, such as this one:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/YeskJG
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https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/YeskJG
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Music Will Save Us
- ThisIsNotTheMusic
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Sorry for getting so far off topic! Wow that happened quickly! Anyway I'll try your advice and see what I can find. I have Edifier studio monitors - I know they are not great but they were the best I could afford at the time. I usually mix using Sennhauser Studio headphones though, so I don't think the speakers have much to do with it.LABONERECORDINGS wrote:Have you compared similar music in the genre you're making on your setup? might be more revealing, or you might be biasing opinion a little on the drums - if they're too prominent, drop back say -3dB on the drum buss (perhaps on the insert trim best to prevent messing up any automation), bounce as that and then import both 'loud' and 'test' versions into Reason as a new project onto two audio tracks (same tempo) slice up every 4 bars so you can hear the 'swap' on the drums level between each version. If still cooking but better being that bit quieter you know you're going in the right direction. If they sound weaker or are getting lost you know you've gone too far. Remember 3dB on the drum buss is 3dB off all the sounds going through it, so can be quite a bit and may be making all the difference. Also listening level might be biasing too, try turning the master down when you compare by say 3dB again just as a guide so you can 'feel' around the track at different levels. Also might be the tone of the drum kit you've used, might need some gentle tone controlling (eq shelfing) to help tame the prominence. Pan positioning too may be key - are the drums all mono / central? Not saying you've done this, just ruling out a few possibilities why you feel the drums are too 'up front'. The other instruments / vocals / fx etc might be all in the same sound space across the panorama, so the drums might be 'sitting' on top since they can be the most dynamic in a short space (which might be why you feel they are louder, could it be the transients are smacking?)ThisIsNotTheMusic wrote:I need to think about these options as I just finished a mix and drums are way too prominent, something isn't right. Thanks though, I'll see what I can do. By way of example (pretty sure I did a lot more wrong in the mix, but it sounded well balanced from the studio monitors)
Which monitors are you using, out of interest? Oh and apologies for the slight derailment, we can discuss mix options on another thread
Keep at it though, we're all here to help, guide and learn off each other to better ourselves
The desk is great though!!
OK, I now have a new (and more expensive) favorite studio desk to start saving up for!
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My name's Paul and my Dad has woodworking skills...Biolumin3sc3nt wrote:Honestly, It's always nice to have a friend of a friend who know's his woodworking skills (Pauls dad) I'm beginning to think its a lost trade almost... Next desk i have, will be built by a farmer!
You're kidding, right?
I'd rather buy some bricks and a couple of planks of wood. That's insane.
Someone I know has one of these and liked it:
Pretty sure you'd have to do something about the mesh (usually rattles) but it's gotta be better than the insanely overpriced "for studio" offerings.
Hmm. That link isn't working. Here's a pic:
$133 bucks at amazon.
- LABONERECORDINGS
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Argosy desks look superb, plus if you get their brochure you pretty much get the plans to build or roll your own
http://www.argosyconsole.com
Also as a side note.. https://proaudioclube.com/2016/04/21/au ... ifference/
http://www.argosyconsole.com
Also as a side note.. https://proaudioclube.com/2016/04/21/au ... ifference/
a blast from the past
Reason 12 ,gear4 music sdp3 stage piano .nektar gxp 88,behringer umc1800 .line6 spider4 30
hear scince reason 2.5
hear scince reason 2.5
- Marco Raaphorst
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I am mostly concerned about frequency resonances. Easiest trick is find them is to playback a sinewave sweep or stepped sequence of notes moving higher in pitch. Often in the low range there are a few frequencies causing resonance peaks which need treatment.LABONERECORDINGS wrote: Also as a side note.. https://proaudioclube.com/2016/04/21/au ... ifference/
The playback frequency doesn't matter. Peak resonance will be the same at any volume level because a room produces lineair sound.
Totally agree here, and resonances are not always easy to see with basic room correction software. A typical frequency plot is frequency based, but resonances are also time based. So without seeing a waterfall display (which shows frequency response over time), you only see half the data. That is to say, a room response can look more flat than it really is if there are long ringing resonances.Marco Raaphorst wrote:I am mostly concerned about frequency resonances. Easiest trick is find them is to playback a sinewave sweep or stepped sequence of notes moving higher in pitch. Often in the low range there are a few frequencies causing resonance peaks which need treatment.LABONERECORDINGS wrote: Also as a side note.. https://proaudioclube.com/2016/04/21/au ... ifference/
The playback frequency doesn't matter. Peak resonance will be the same at any volume level because a room produces lineair sound.
Making matters worse, most resonances that cause problems are in the lower ranges, and these of course are the most difficult to control (hence large bass traps/absorbers).
Should we start a thread on room acoustics so we don't take this one totally off topic?
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I bought the RAB Audio ProRak 61. I wanted a retractable keyboard. I mounted two VESA arms on the back for my iMac and second display. It also has a pair of 3U rack bays.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProRak61B
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProRak61B
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- Marco Raaphorst
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Thats's an interesting topic!selig wrote:Should we start a thread on room acoustics so we don't take this one totally off topic?
then theirs the thread on standing up at the desk with sum sort of podium , supposedly healthier!
Reason 12 ,gear4 music sdp3 stage piano .nektar gxp 88,behringer umc1800 .line6 spider4 30
hear scince reason 2.5
hear scince reason 2.5
Music Will Save Us
IKEA PAHL Desk
FYI
Height Adjustable.
to ~30in H x ~36in L x ~23in Deep
Nice.
$49.99
I just set one (of 2) up. Nice to look over a FULL MANTIS with room for 3-4 other pieces of gear,
on a very light, moveable table.
I wouldn't put the 2600 on it, but. most things. Ill take a pic when I get home.
[UPDATEE: PIC BELOW] - That's a lot of Table space for STUFF.
- The Wood Table below is 24in High. (The Pahl is 29in)
Party on!
FYI. In Stock.
https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/pahl-desk- ... s39128941/
FYI
Height Adjustable.
to ~30in H x ~36in L x ~23in Deep
Nice.
$49.99
I just set one (of 2) up. Nice to look over a FULL MANTIS with room for 3-4 other pieces of gear,
on a very light, moveable table.
I wouldn't put the 2600 on it, but. most things. Ill take a pic when I get home.
[UPDATEE: PIC BELOW] - That's a lot of Table space for STUFF.
- The Wood Table below is 24in High. (The Pahl is 29in)
Party on!
FYI. In Stock.
https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/pahl-desk- ... s39128941/
Rolled my own, but the foundation of my “desk” is actually a mixer stand (Quiklok ZM-44WS workstation). Added the side racks fairly recently, which really tied the room together. I built the table top, the keyboard tray, and the upper back to fit some of the stuff I wanted to put on the desk.
For me, it was crucial to put the QWERY keyboard at a proper position up front, and thankfully it was nearly perfect that I could stick a Keystep on the upper level, front & center, to have something for note entry into Reason plus controlling my other synths.
For me, it was crucial to put the QWERY keyboard at a proper position up front, and thankfully it was nearly perfect that I could stick a Keystep on the upper level, front & center, to have something for note entry into Reason plus controlling my other synths.
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