Yes, Virginia, There is a Reason Sound

[jonheal]

I don't know ... I was just in the mood to get doused with gasoline and set afire.

If there is anything to this "Reason sound" business, for me, it's that I have some difficulty getting really low frequency bass sounds and crispy, shimmering high frequency sounds out of the stock devices. My sounds seem kind of stuck in the midrange. I suppose there is some trick to doing this but I don't know what it is. I know it is not as simple as turning up or down the octave knob.

Now preparing for immolation ...

[Wickline]

I heard all devices in the next version of Reason will have settings that go to 11. Should take care of this.

[joeyluck]

From the manual:

"Turning off the Reason Sound:

Now there may come a time when your ears begin to go. After navigating to Preferences, press up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, B, A, start. A new option will then present itself. Alternatively, you can press command+Q on Mac or ctrl+alt+delete on Windows and select Reason from the menu."

[Noise]

I like the stock "reason sound". Which means I need to sculpt it my self. Have you tried the good old new york parallel effect ?
Create a new Bus Channel and the HPF it ? (81.0 hz is a good number)

I guess in a parallel universe there is someone saying "I just wish for some midrange in this reason shimmery stock devices"

[jonheal]

From the manual:

"Turning off the Reason Sound:

Now there may come a time when your ears begin to go. After navigating to Preferences, press up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, B, A, start. A new option will then present itself. Alternatively, you can press command+Q on Mac or ctrl+alt+delete on Windows and select Reason from the menu."

Can you believe I am so gullible that I actually searched the manual for the above?

Anyway, in all seriousness, would anyone be willing to share a Malstrom patch with me that exhibits low, belly-rumbling bass, so that I may deconstruct it for future reference?

[jonheal]

I like the stock "reason sound". Which means I need to sculpt it my self. Have you tried the good old new york parallel effect ?
Create a new Bus Channel and the HPF it ? (81.0 hz is a good number)

I guess in a parallel universe there is someone saying "I just wish for some midrange in this reason shimmery stock devices"

I will try this if I can figure it out.

[Noise]

I like the stock "reason sound". Which means I need to sculpt it my self. Have you tried the good old new york parallel effect ?
Create a new Bus Channel and the HPF it ? (81.0 hz is a good number)

I guess in a parallel universe there is someone saying "I just wish for some midrange in this reason shimmery stock devices"

I will try this if I can figure it out.

John, check this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvFQhZ0S5E8.

[selig]

OK, I'll bite!

I can't imagine the low end is any different on the Reason synths, but the top is is definitely different (but only in the top octave for most synths).

Low end: you can test this easily by using a sine wave on any synth. Play a note in the middle range and watch the meter as you switch octaves lower and lower. I see NO level change as I lower the pitch which indicates there is no loss of low end energy with Reason synths. Works with all native synths.

Top end: you can use a saw (or noise) source to check the top end response, making sure to turn off filters first (or tune them all the way up, or set them to HP and tune them all the way down).
Subtractor Saw: on each "A" you can notice missing high frequency energy by observing the signal on the Spectrum Analyzer.
Malstrom Saw: you can see a similar thing on "G", PLUS an overall slight roll off on the top octave.
Thor Saw: you see a similar slight roll off on the top octave, otherwise fine.

The slight roll off can be easily EQ'ed out, but the sharp drop is more difficult to address. In every case, you won't notice this when using a low pass filter unless it's wide open, so YMMV.

FWIW, Parsec has a sharp cutoff way up around 18 kHz - my old ears cannot hear this, I only know it by looking at the Spectrum.


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[jonheal]

I never doubted Reason's stack device's native sound producing capabilities, actually. I DO doubt my own sound sculpting capabilities.

I think now perhaps that a lot of "modern" rumbly patches perhaps mix in some "sub-bass" material that plays an octave or two below the fundamental.

I will experiment a bit and see what I can come up with.

[selig]

I like the stock "reason sound". Which means I need to sculpt it my self. Have you tried the good old new york parallel effect ?
Create a new Bus Channel and the HPF it ? (81.0 hz is a good number)

I guess in a parallel universe there is someone saying "I just wish for some midrange in this reason shimmery stock devices"

New York parallel compression? (actually created in Detroit at Motown, fwiw)

Using a HP filter will reduce low end, right? I think that's the opposite of what is being asked for…

[selig]

From the manual:

"Turning off the Reason Sound:

Now there may come a time when your ears begin to go. After navigating to Preferences, press up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, B, A, start. A new option will then present itself. Alternatively, you can press command+Q on Mac or ctrl+alt+delete on Windows and select Reason from the menu."

Can you believe I am so gullible that I actually searched the manual for the above?

Anyway, in all seriousness, would anyone be willing to share a Malstrom patch with me that exhibits low, belly-rumbling bass, so that I may deconstruct it for future reference?

A sine wave played in the bottom two octaves or so will give you as much low end as possible - you can't get more low end than that! Add an oscillator an octave above it (square or saw for example) for a brighter sound. Adjust the level of the upper oscillator and filter to taste.

[jonheal]

From the manual:

"Turning off the Reason Sound:

Now there may come a time when your ears begin to go. After navigating to Preferences, press up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, B, A, start. A new option will then present itself. Alternatively, you can press command+Q on Mac or ctrl+alt+delete on Windows and select Reason from the menu."

Can you believe I am so gullible that I actually searched the manual for the above?

Anyway, in all seriousness, would anyone be willing to share a Malstrom patch with me that exhibits low, belly-rumbling bass, so that I may deconstruct it for future reference?

A sine wave played in the bottom two octaves or so will give you as much low end as possible - you can't get more low end than that! Add an oscillator an octave above it (square or saw for example) for a brighter sound. Adjust the level of the upper oscillator and filter to taste.

Will do.

[jonheal]

Sorry for the inflammatory title. I do enjoy "grab 'em by the throats" titles.

[lowpryo]

I never doubted Reason's stack device's native sound producing capabilities, actually. I DO doubt my own sound sculpting capabilities.

I think now perhaps that a lot of "modern" rumbly patches perhaps mix in some "sub-bass" material that plays an octave or two below the fundamental.

I will experiment a bit and see what I can come up with.

you're right, it's very common practice in modern EDM to have a low sine wave (clean or saturated) as a sub-bass to support bass-type sounds or chord progressions.

I felt the same early on, like my tracks just didn't have any deep body or power to them, and sub-bass was the key. simple but very effective. just make sure your monitors can accurately produce that sub bass, or you might unknowingly mix it way too loud.

[selig]

I never doubted Reason's stack device's native sound producing capabilities, actually. I DO doubt my own sound sculpting capabilities.

I think now perhaps that a lot of "modern" rumbly patches perhaps mix in some "sub-bass" material that plays an octave or two below the fundamental.

I will experiment a bit and see what I can come up with.

you're right, it's very common practice in modern EDM to have a low sine wave (clean or saturated) as a sub-bass to support bass-type sounds or chord progressions.

I felt the same early on, like my tracks just didn't have any deep body or power to them, and sub-bass was the key. simple but very effective. just make sure your monitors can accurately produce that sub bass, or you might unknowingly mix it way too loud.

That last bit of essential wisdom has probably bitten everyone in the butt more than a few times!

Some random points about "bigness" with bass sounds or "loud" effects…

Remember it's all relative. You can have a sine wave sub bass screaming loud in the mix and have it still not feel like it's "big" enough. At a certain point it's simply "too loud". There must be something else going on to make these types of sound come across as "big".

Sometimes this "bigness" we seek comes from unexpected places. For example, with film sound effects, one of the tricks to making a big explosion sound big will come as much from the initial impact as it will from the secondary sounds that give the listener clues to it's bigness. This often comes from the sound of shrapnel flying past or hitting the ground around you rather than from the initial 'blast'.

In a similar way, sometimes the bigness of a bass sound comes from frequencies ABOVE the bottom two octaves or so. It's also worth understanding the physics of natural sound and the way humans perceive "sound". With a really loud sounds our ears will actually compress to some degree (and even distort). So by recreating those side effects you can help give the illusion of "bigness".

Remember it's ALL an illusion in the audio world. Making a "big" sound on small speakers is NOT about the bottom few octaves (because they cannot reproduce those frequencies). It's about creating the perfect blend of frequencies over time that "imply" bigness. If done right, it will sound big on all systems and at all listening levels.

For the most part, a 'big' sound on small speakers CAN translate to big speakers (if care is taken), but not always the other way around. A sub sine is a good example of the latter, which can completely disappear on small speakers if nothing is added (other waveforms/oscillators, or saturation distortion which creates additional upper harmonics, etc.).


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[kuhliloach]

No there's no Reason sound, Virginia. Especially if you're avoiding the Master Bus Compressor (which has a sound) and the SSL mixer emulation (also has a sound). The idea that Reason itself has an inherent sound itself remains humorous to me. The stuff of online forums. It's like arguing the spelling of a Chick-fil-A sign with the K missing.

However this thread is a good one as it pertains to controlling bass. There is no greater challenge. Also, getting deep guts out of your synth patch might happen via FX rather than on the unit itself.

[aeox]

maybe you need something to boost @ 30-40Khz for that shimmer you are talking about, i believe this is called "Air"

i know you are talking about stock reason devices but try https://www.volkoaudio.com/product/q3d-eq/ and see if it does the trick for you because i use it on almost everything just for the 40KHz setting

[jonheal]

No there's no Reason sound, Virginia. Especially if you're avoiding the Master Bus Compressor (which has a sound) and the SSL mixer emulation (also has a sound). The idea that Reason itself has an inherent sound itself remains humorous to me. The stuff of online forums. It's like arguing the spelling of a Chick-fil-A sign with the K missing.

However this thread is a good one as it pertains to controlling bass. There is no greater challenge. Also, getting deep guts out of your synth patch might happen via FX rather than on the unit itself.

There's a "K" in "Chick-fil-A?!?" Holy crap, I just blew vanilla shake out of my nose in astonishment!

[selig]

maybe you need something to boost @ 30-40Khz for that shimmer you are talking about, i believe this is called "Air"

i know you are talking about stock reason devices but try https://www.volkoaudio.com/product/q3d-eq/ and see if it does the trick for you because i use it on almost everything just for the 40KHz setting

Even though the 'air' bands say they boost up that high, at 44.1 kHz they are not adding any energy up that high (can't be done at that sample rate). Though I've not looked at the plugin you mention, others I've checked out are easy to replicate with most EQs.

A high shelf, for example, can boost everything above it's set frequency. The problem is if you were to really boost up that high (when using high sample rates) you're eating up headroom that can't be heard - and if you convert back to 48 or 44.1 kHz you'd loose all that anyway.

Not saying it doesn't sound good to boost up there, just that the effect you actually hear is the result of boosting frequencies below 20 kHz or so.

EDIT: YES! This would definitely address the missing upper frequencies on some of Reason's synths such as Thor.


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[aeox]

maybe you need something to boost @ 30-40Khz for that shimmer you are talking about, i believe this is called "Air"

i know you are talking about stock reason devices but try https://www.volkoaudio.com/product/q3d-eq/ and see if it does the trick for you because i use it on almost everything just for the 40KHz setting

Even though the 'air' bands say they boost up that high, at 44.1 kHz they are not adding any energy up that high (can't be done at that sample rate). Though I've not looked at the plugin you mention, others I've checked out are easy to replicate with most EQs.

A high shelf, for example, can boost everything above it's set frequency. The problem is if you were to really boost up that high (when using high sample rates) you're eating up headroom that can't be heard - and if you convert back to 48 or 44.1 kHz you'd loose all that anyway.

Not saying it doesn't sound good to boost up there, just that the effect you actually hear is the result of boosting frequencies below 20 kHz or so.

EDIT: YES! This would definitely address the missing upper frequencies on some of Reason's synths such as Thor.



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just using my hear holes and going with what sounds good to me. not trying to think too hard about it really

[Oquasec]

It's not the daw.

[aeox]

and Selig if can tell me how to get that same "air" sound with the stock reason EQ that would be amazing because i've tried a lot and feel like a failure when i can't get results i want from the stock devices

[jonheal]

It's not the daw.

When you say it's not the daw, do you mean it's not the "daw" as in "craw," or it's not the dee-a-double-u?

I'M KIDDING!!!!!

[selig]

and Selig if can tell me how to get that same "air" sound with the stock reason EQ that would be amazing because i've tried a lot and feel like a failure when i can't get results i want from the stock devices

The only EQ with "air" that I have in Reason is the RP-EQ. Boosting the Air amount to the max (at the default/highest frequency) you get this:


To match this curve with the SSL EQ, set the high shelf to the following:
+7.94 dB
9.99 kHz

This will exactly match the "air" band on the RP-EQ. In fact, the SSL curve is the green curve in the graph above. Can't see the green curve? That's because the purple curve (RP-EQ) is almost perfectly on top of it (you can see the tiniest bit of green at the very top of the response)! Phase and distortion curves also match, btw…

Using my hear hole (love that phrase, btw) I can't hear any difference.

[aeox]

and Selig if can tell me how to get that same "air" sound with the stock reason EQ that would be amazing because i've tried a lot and feel like a failure when i can't get results i want from the stock devices

The only EQ with "air" that I have in Reason is the RP-EQ. Boosting the Air amount to the max (at the default/highest frequency) you get this:


To match this curve with the SSL EQ, set the high shelf to the following:
+7.94 dB
9.99 kHz

This will exactly match the "air" band on the RP-EQ. In fact, the SSL curve is the green curve in the graph above. Can't see the green curve? That's because the purple curve (RP-EQ) is almost perfectly on top of it (you can see the tiniest bit of green at the very top of the response)! Phase and distortion curves also match, btw…

Using my hear hole (love that phrase, btw) I can't hear any difference.

haha thanks for that. really good to know and will come in handy for sure!

here are some issues i'm having:

1. the particular Air feature i'm using is on a free vst and I can't seem to get the same results ( on the Volko I put it @ 40KHz and crank it to 10, this is the sound i'm actually looking for which i can't seem to achieve with any other EQ or even ones with an "Air" feature) and I proceed to compress with multi-band compression afterwards.

2. i don't always want to EQ at the end of a chain where the SSL EQ is. i could easily just make it's own mix channel just for the EQ in a chain but that could get a bit hectic if you ask me when I can just slap in a free vst and get the sound i'm looking for quickly.

EDIT: BTW i'm thinking too hard about it now and i can feel my brain melting