Reason Sound Quality

[mreese80]

What it comes down to is knowing how to mix in reason. I thought the same thing for years until recently. It is true that every other daw (everyone i've used) is louder out the gate compared to reason. The thing about other daws that i don't like is they have a brighter, crispier sound. Things are easier in other daws than in reason. But i like reason because it's like having real hardware. It doesn't do everything for you like most daws. It required me researching a lot. And that helped me. I learned things i never knew. I had been mixing wrong for years. Not only do i get a better sound now in reason but i get a better sound in my other daws now. It wasn't reason that was the problem, it was more.

Well…
The thing I like about all DAWs is they are exactly the same loudness and none or brighter/darker than the others. Makes moving between them very easy in my experience. There's absolutely no logical reason for them to be any different from each other. Never seen any evidence to the contrary.

If they were not, then it would be obvious and everyone would agree they were different (and the measurements would bear this out as well).

I'm always willing to stand corrected if proven wrong, but so far I've not see any evidence to support any core differences in level or spectral balances.

Once you start adding EQ/Dynamics etc. there are PLENTY of differences - but that's not what we're talking about, right?




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Reason does not as loud or as bright. And i'm talking about before eq's. Maybe to your ears they sound the same, but they don't to me. Same with fl studio. Here's the reason i don't use it. Vst's sound fine. but when i load up drum samples they dont. they sound thin and light. I can't prove you wrong if that's what you hear. But i know how i've heard reason for years. It doesn't sound the same. I don't have a problem with it now. I know how to get my sound. It's not even hard. I just was never mixing right. Another thing is unless you've used reason all your life you would probably never notice a sound difference. The vst market is big. Tons of plugins. Not being able to use these in reason has been the issue of most. But i have a work around for vsts so i dont care no more. Reason is the real deal imo so you have to know how to mix.

Ahhhhh, I think I know what's going on here…
I'm talking about REASON. You seem to be talking about DEVICES/PLUGINS in Reason. Two TOTALLY different things.

I'm willing to bet that "sound" you hear is simply the fact that some Reason devices wisely (and correctly) leave some headroom, so a sample loaded in say, ReDrum, will not and should not be as loud as that sample loaded as audio on an audio track.

Remember, "louder" always sounds better to the human ear. That means it sounds not just louder, but BETTER. The opposite is also true - softer sounds thinner and lighter, exactly as you describe, not just softer.

Leaving headroom is important because if you have two samples at full volume and play them together, you'll instantly clip the outputs. Leaving headroom is important to prevent this form happening, and that's why Reason devices do this.

You are not the first person to say Reason sounds "thin" exactly because of the headroom used for the samplers. You can easily prove this is not a problem to yourself by lowering the level of samples in your VSTs, or by raising the level of the samples in Reason. You'll find other than level, they are EXACTLY the same. This subject comes up again and again and you may even be able to find other threads on the same subject if you dig around a little. And once you understand why this is being done, you'll probably appreciate why it's the way it is.

Reason sounds different. I know it does. I'm not the only person who thinks this. It's been said for years. It's not a bad thing, It's not about headroom Selig lol.

[Blast]

Just Tested out Selig's theory, I loaded up a drum sample in Kong and loaded the same sample in Impact in Studio one.
Studio One Sounded better because it was louder with a peak level of -6db and Kong much Weaker with a peak level of -9db.So by turning up the level in Kong until I get a peak level of -6db,it sounded the same as in Impact in Studio one.
Thanks Selig. I never realized this until you mentioned it.

[selig]

What it comes down to is knowing how to mix in reason. I thought the same thing for years until recently. It is true that every other daw (everyone i've used) is louder out the gate compared to reason. The thing about other daws that i don't like is they have a brighter, crispier sound. Things are easier in other daws than in reason. But i like reason because it's like having real hardware. It doesn't do everything for you like most daws. It required me researching a lot. And that helped me. I learned things i never knew. I had been mixing wrong for years. Not only do i get a better sound now in reason but i get a better sound in my other daws now. It wasn't reason that was the problem, it was more.

Well…
The thing I like about all DAWs is they are exactly the same loudness and none or brighter/darker than the others. Makes moving between them very easy in my experience. There's absolutely no logical reason for them to be any different from each other. Never seen any evidence to the contrary.

If they were not, then it would be obvious and everyone would agree they were different (and the measurements would bear this out as well).

I'm always willing to stand corrected if proven wrong, but so far I've not see any evidence to support any core differences in level or spectral balances.

Once you start adding EQ/Dynamics etc. there are PLENTY of differences - but that's not what we're talking about, right?




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Reason does not as loud or as bright. And i'm talking about before eq's. Maybe to your ears they sound the same, but they don't to me. Same with fl studio. Here's the reason i don't use it. Vst's sound fine. but when i load up drum samples they dont. they sound thin and light. I can't prove you wrong if that's what you hear. But i know how i've heard reason for years. It doesn't sound the same. I don't have a problem with it now. I know how to get my sound. It's not even hard. I just was never mixing right. Another thing is unless you've used reason all your life you would probably never notice a sound difference. The vst market is big. Tons of plugins. Not being able to use these in reason has been the issue of most. But i have a work around for vsts so i dont care no more. Reason is the real deal imo so you have to know how to mix.

Ahhhhh, I think I know what's going on here…
I'm talking about REASON. You seem to be talking about DEVICES/PLUGINS in Reason. Two TOTALLY different things.

I'm willing to bet that "sound" you hear is simply the fact that some Reason devices wisely (and correctly) leave some headroom, so a sample loaded in say, ReDrum, will not and should not be as loud as that sample loaded as audio on an audio track.

Remember, "louder" always sounds better to the human ear. That means it sounds not just louder, but BETTER. The opposite is also true - softer sounds thinner and lighter, exactly as you describe, not just softer.

Leaving headroom is important because if you have two samples at full volume and play them together, you'll instantly clip the outputs. Leaving headroom is important to prevent this form happening, and that's why Reason devices do this.

You are not the first person to say Reason sounds "thin" exactly because of the headroom used for the samplers. You can easily prove this is not a problem to yourself by lowering the level of samples in your VSTs, or by raising the level of the samples in Reason. You'll find other than level, they are EXACTLY the same. This subject comes up again and again and you may even be able to find other threads on the same subject if you dig around a little. And once you understand why this is being done, you'll probably appreciate why it's the way it is.

Reason sounds different. I know it does. I'm not the only person who thinks this. It's been said for years. It's not a bad thing, It's not about headroom Selig lol.

By that logic…
Folks are also still saying the earth is flat, and it's been said for years.

OK, if you say so. But I've proven it doesn't sound different and MORE folks say it doesn't sound different than say it does.

Plus, there's no reason for it to sound different. Why should it sound different?

So you say it's not about headroom? Can you prove that? (For the record, I said it's about being fooled by the "louder sounds better" problem, not by "headroom").

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about stuff they can prove for themselves if they care to do so. Everyone can believe what they want to believe as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who is interested in this subject has probably already done the tests to find the answers, so I'm willing to let folks believe what they want to believe and move on!



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[deepndark]

I must say - as so many of us believe there's a Reason sound, there must be some truth to it. We hear the radios, we don't sound the same.

[selig]

I must say - as so many of us believe there's a Reason sound, there must be some truth to it. We hear the radios, we don't sound the same.

That's just not a dependable way to seek truth in my experience. I've explained the common issues involved in making comparisons and the pitfalls that will fool most listeners every time. YES - there is a difference in drum samples loaded in ReDrum vs other samples, but that different is LEVEL.



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[normen]

I must say - as so many of us believe there's a Reason sound, there must be some truth to it. We hear the radios, we don't sound the same.

That's just not a dependable way to seek truth in my experience.



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Gotta repeat myself - the plural of anecdote isn't data.

[-008']

Like I said before. People are comparing 80 to 100 when it comes to samples. Adjust for the defaults in each DAW and then compare.

Not to mention that Reason devices are "balanced" compared to a million different daw and VST operating at their own levels... <IMO not sure 100% on that. But it all comes down to what we are saying causes the confusion, and that is DEFAULT LEVELS.

[selig]

You can lead a horse to water…
But you can't perform the A/B blind (or double blind) tests for them!


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[deepndark]

I must say - as so many of us believe there's a Reason sound, there must be some truth to it. We hear the radios, we don't sound the same.

That's just not a dependable way to seek truth in my experience. I've explained the common issues involved in making comparisons and the pitfalls that will fool most listeners every time. YES - there is a difference in drum samples loaded in ReDrum vs other samples, but that different is LEVEL.



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Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

[selig]

I must say - as so many of us believe there's a Reason sound, there must be some truth to it. We hear the radios, we don't sound the same.

That's just not a dependable way to seek truth in my experience. I've explained the common issues involved in making comparisons and the pitfalls that will fool most listeners every time. YES - there is a difference in drum samples loaded in ReDrum vs other samples, but that different is LEVEL.



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Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

LOUDER SOUNDS BETTER


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[deepndark]

I must say - as so many of us believe there's a Reason sound, there must be some truth to it. We hear the radios, we don't sound the same.

That's just not a dependable way to seek truth in my experience. I've explained the common issues involved in making comparisons and the pitfalls that will fool most listeners every time. YES - there is a difference in drum samples loaded in ReDrum vs other samples, but that different is LEVEL.



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Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

LOUDER SOUNDS BETTER


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Yes it does when the mix can be like that. BUT.. shoutcast.com and most radios are made for quiter listening. And also the sound isn't tone'lly the same.

[selig]

I must say - as so many of us believe there's a Reason sound, there must be some truth to it. We hear the radios, we don't sound the same.

That's just not a dependable way to seek truth in my experience. I've explained the common issues involved in making comparisons and the pitfalls that will fool most listeners every time. YES - there is a difference in drum samples loaded in ReDrum vs other samples, but that different is LEVEL.



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Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

LOUDER SOUNDS BETTER


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Yes it does when the mix can be like that. BUT.. shoutcast.com and most radios are made for quiter listening. And also the sound isn't tone'lly the same.

What are we talking about here, Reason or radio?


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[normen]

Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

There is no dilemma. Do you have to believe in Grey Aliens because theres more than one person talking about it? Do you have to believe all germans are Nazis because some people think so? Do you have to believe Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet because billions of people believe it?

[selig]

Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

There is no dilemma. Do you have to believe in Grey Aliens because theres more than one person talking about it? Do you have to believe all germans are Nazis because some people think so? Do you have to believe Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet because billions of people believe it?

Maybe time for us to re-visit your cognitive bias thread for a little refresher?!?


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[deepndark]

Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

There is no dilemma. Do you have to believe in Grey Aliens because theres more than one person talking about it? Do you have to believe all germans are Nazis because some people think so? Do you have to believe Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet because billions of people believe it?

Not if you you can detect what sounds like Reason. Can you?

[pjeudy]

Can somebody with lots of DAWs please please import the same couple of seconds of drum samples into all of them and then export them. so we can have a nice simple blind test for people who say Reason sounds different?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehs54mxh8aie2 ... S.rar?dl=0

STEP 1: I opened a DAW
STEP 2: I dragged and dropped a loop file
STEP 3: I exported the audio file

And nothing else, nothing !

NO :Level match
NO : Eq setting
NO : movement of the faders,pan knob,stereo width
NO : compression
NO NOTHING !!!!

I will not say which DAW I used, not yet.... Also there is a very,very strong chance that I'm lying to you all and that all 3 sound or 2 sound examples are from the same DAW duplicated 3 times or twice...The plot thickens.

[selig]

Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

There is no dilemma. Do you have to believe in Grey Aliens because theres more than one person talking about it? Do you have to believe all germans are Nazis because some people think so? Do you have to believe Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet because billions of people believe it?

Not if you you can detect what sounds like Reason. Can you?

Depends on what you mean by Reason. If you know the factory sound bank it's entirely possible to recognize a patch or sample from it. But that's not the "Reason sound", that's recognizing a specific sound you've heard before.

That's the best I can answer without understanding the question better.


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[4filegate]

the effect is the result of internal illusion in those of low ability, and external misperception in those of high ability: "The miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."

analogy – with a condition in which a person who experiences a physical disability because of brain injury seems unaware of, or denies the existence of, the disability, even for dramatic impairments such as blindness or paralysis: "If you're incompetent, you can't know you’re incompetent.… [T]he skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is."

[deepndark]

Selig, can you come up with something we could relate that would explain the Reason sound dilemma?

There is no dilemma. Do you have to believe in Grey Aliens because theres more than one person talking about it? Do you have to believe all germans are Nazis because some people think so? Do you have to believe Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet because billions of people believe it?

Not if you you can detect what sounds like Reason. Can you?

Depends on what you mean by Reason. If you know the factory sound bank it's entirely possible to recognize a patch or sample from it. But that's not the "Reason sound", that's recognizing a specific sound you've heard before.

That's the best I can answer without understanding the question better.


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I believe there might be something that sounds Reasonish, but can be avoided by knowing enough. My next Reason song will be REs only just to understand what can be done with REs only.

[Peter]

the effect is the result of internal illusion in those of low ability, and external misperception in those of high ability: "The miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."

analogy – with a condition in which a person who experiences a physical disability because of brain injury seems unaware of, or denies the existence of, the disability, even for dramatic impairments such as blindness or paralysis: "If you're incompetent, you can't know you’re incompetent.… [T]he skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is."

Yep!

[riemac]

Can somebody with lots of DAWs please please import the same couple of seconds of drum samples into all of them and then export them. so we can have a nice simple blind test for people who say Reason sounds different?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehs54mxh8aie2 ... S.rar?dl=0

STEP 1: I opened a DAW
STEP 2: I dragged and dropped a loop file
STEP 3: I exported the audio file

And nothing else, nothing !

NO :Level match
NO : Eq setting
NO : movement of the faders,pan knob,stereo width
NO : compression
NO NOTHING !!!!

I will not say which DAW I used, not yet.... Also there is a very,very strong chance that I'm lying to you all and that all 3 sound or 2 sound examples are from the same DAW duplicated 3 times or twice...The plot thickens.

The second file is Reason for sure

By the way, did you Export different length and tempo?

[Creativemind]

The one thing I don't get about loading samples into the NN-XT or Redrum or what have you, is people say they're lower in volume to leave headroom. So other daw's don't do this? then why not?

Also, so (as someone pointed out above) when you use multiple samples, Reason leaves headroom so you don't clip the outputs. Well supposing your intention was to only use one sample, then the reason the Props added this as default becomes counterproductive.

[Creativemind]

Can somebody with lots of DAWs please please import the same couple of seconds of drum samples into all of them and then export them. so we can have a nice simple blind test for people who say Reason sounds different?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehs54mxh8aie2 ... S.rar?dl=0

STEP 1: I opened a DAW
STEP 2: I dragged and dropped a loop file
STEP 3: I exported the audio file

And nothing else, nothing !

NO :Level match
NO : Eq setting
NO : movement of the faders,pan knob,stereo width
NO : compression
NO NOTHING !!!!

I will not say which DAW I used, not yet.... Also there is a very,very strong chance that I'm lying to you all and that all 3 sound or 2 sound examples are from the same DAW duplicated 3 times or twice...The plot thickens.

As for this comparison. They all sound identical, although, I did think after the second listen, the first one may have sounded a tiny tiny tiny bit louder but that was just from a listening point of view. No visual analytical aspect.

[pjeudy]

By the way, did you Export different length and tempo?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehs54mxh8aie2 ... S.rar?dl=0

STEP 1: I opened a DAW
STEP 2: I dragged and dropped a loop file
STEP 3: I exported the audio file

And nothing else, nothing !

NO :Level match
NO : Eq setting
NO : movement of the faders,pan knob,stereo width
NO : compression
NO : change in length
NO : Tempo change
NO NOTHING !!!!

[selig]

The one thing I don't get about loading samples into the NN-XT or Redrum or what have you, is people say they're lower in volume to leave headroom. So other daw's don't do this? then why not?

Also, so (as someone pointed out above) when you use multiple samples, Reason leaves headroom so you don't clip the outputs. Well supposing your intention was to only use one sample, then the reason the Props added this as default becomes counterproductive.

Only if you're going to use that one sample, and absolutely nothing else in the entire song, which would be a very special case for most I would reckon.

Remember, headroom is needed for the mix, not for individual instruments.


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