The, think up a good financing / subscription model thread, ...

[Aquila]

The best subsription model is NO subscription model IMHO

I tried it with Adobe CC and thoroughly hated it.

[stp2015]

Yes, if props start a subscription model, I am out. I love reason, but there are alternatives.


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[avasopht]

The best subsription model is NO subscription model IMHO

I tried it with Adobe CC and thoroughly hated it.

Did you read any of the examples I gave.

Most of them aren't pure subscription, but are actually ways you can pay down on a program while getting immediate access before you've completed payment while still being able to outright purchase.

Failing to see what is LOST compared to only having the option to purchase with the complete payment. See the Rent To Own thread for exactly what I mentioned, but they've called it "rent to own."

Basically you can purchase a license outright, paydown on a purchase, or subscript (aka, auto purchase upgrade). None of my examples bear any resemblance to Adobe CC?!

[txh003]

I hate subscriptions with a vengeance and I can't believe we're discussing it here as a sort of door-opener for Props to implement such a horrible (for users) business model.

I concur 100%.

[Aquila]

The best subsription model is NO subscription model IMHO

I tried it with Adobe CC and thoroughly hated it.

Did you read any of the examples I gave.

Most of them aren't pure subscription, but are actually ways you can pay down on a program while getting immediate access before you've completed payment while still being able to outright purchase.

Failing to see what is LOST compared to only having the option to purchase with the complete payment. See the Rent To Own thread for exactly what I mentioned, but they've called it "rent to own."

Basically you can purchase a license outright, paydown on a purchase, or subscript (aka, auto purchase upgrade). None of my examples bear any resemblance to Adobe CC?!

I wasn't actually commenting on your suggestions. The thread title asked to think up a good subscription model and so I gave my opinion, which was to not have a subscription model at all.

[joeyluck]

I think calling it a subscription might be off-putting to some? While calling it 'renting' is different. Whereas renting, you're not subscribing to something (like updates and new versions), you're simply paying to rent what is available today for a period of time. Of course, updates will likely come your way, but it's not the primary selling point of renting the license.

What's interesting is some who purchase Reason actually treat it as if they have paid into a subscription; getting upset if the next version announced (a version they have not yet paid for) doesn't have what they want... But in reality they've only purchased a license for the version which they chose. So maybe they do want a subscription model so they can have more ground on which to complain?

I use QLab for theatre.
With QLab you can purchase licenses for Audio, Video, Lighting, or all.
You also have the option to rent licenses on a daily basis. It's a pretty simple concept.
It's very handy to those that need it and harmless to those that don't. If anything, it helps bring in more revenue and updates to the software.

[submonsterz]

Doesnt matter how you put it joey its just bait on hook tactics to draw you in . You can take a few nibbles but once you got a taste and bite into the hook your sunk in deep no getting of the hook .
They fill thier boxes with the little fishes until they have the full box load then they stop producing or stop creating or baiting and walk off with thier box of fishes to be fleeced more for less . Very good for the fisherman but not so good on the hooked and boxed fishes .

[jonheal]

I seriously dont see the value of a subscription model for Reason (or any other software). About Adobe CC, i use it at work and even after all the updates they do, its still buggy as hell. I don't find much value in it. At home I stick with Affinity' offerings and other alternative software.

Photoshop is amazingly buggy after all these years. Even super obvious stuff like the interface redrawing in wonky fashion. i just made ths switch to Affinity Photo, which is also buggy, but costs only 50 bucks!

[FlowerSoldier]

Doesnt matter how you put it joey its just bait on hook tactics to draw you in . You can take a few nibbles but once you got a taste and bite into the hook your sunk in deep no getting of the hook .
They fill thier boxes with the little fishes until they have the full box load then they stop producing or stop creating or baiting and walk off with thier box of fishes to be fleeced more for less . Very good for the fisherman but not so good on the hooked and boxed fishes .

That's an intense metaphor subz, and a bit dramatic.
I also am not a fan of the subscription biz model, but let's face it - it would enable my Buddy to use Reason at a price point in his range. Soon many things will be subscriber based, like transportation.
For example, Uber was offering $150 unlimited rides for 2 weeks in manhattan. At $300 bucks a month, that's cheaper and less of a liability than owning a car.
I'm not a proponent or opponent of the subscription model, but it's not going away - like it or not. I believe most of us are licensed users anyway...what difference does it make to us? This would be a good way for Props to offer Reason to folks who can't afford to pony up $400 at one time.
I don't see why that's a bad idea.

[ravisoni]

I also am not a fan of the subscription biz model, but let's face it - it would enable my Buddy to use Reason at a price point in his range. Soon many things will be subscriber based, like transportation.

^^ this. My friend is currently in India, and the price for a full copy of reason is about 75% of what he makes a month (after the currency exchange and all). And he is someone who actually deserves to own a DAW as opposed to me (crazy talent). This would be a good way to get him off Reason 5.
Again, as long as there are multiple options, with keeping the status quo being one of them.

[avasopht]

Doesnt matter how you put it joey its just bait on hook tactics to draw you in . You can take a few nibbles but once you got a taste and bite into the hook your sunk in deep no getting of the hook .
They fill thier boxes with the little fishes until they have the full box load then they stop producing or stop creating or baiting and walk off with thier box of fishes to be fleeced more for less . Very good for the fisherman but not so good on the hooked and boxed fishes .

I don't think there's any solid evidence to suggest that developers would stop working when they get a subscription (I know I or any of the developers I know wouldn't)?!

As the above post explains, there are people who could benefit from alternate pricing models. That's why I'm looking for good ideas for good financial models.

[jayhosking]

Avasopht, it does sound like users above are dissatisfied with the work that Adobe has put into their products since they implemented their subscription model. Submonsterz's example is a little extreme, yeah, but at its core it's addressing a valid concern. With a purchase or upgrade, a company has to convince its users to buy the new product, by offering new and good features. With a subscription model, the onus is instead on the user, and users have to pay to use the same software month after month.

When ProTools switched to a subscription model, I found myself paying more to use the same software, and not seeing any useful perks in the process. I couldn't justify giving a company hundreds of dollars a year for nominal updates and no significant advantages. Despite working with ProTools for a dozen years, I dropped the program after that and started using Reason as a solution for every stage of making music. I strongly dislike subscription models and will almost certainly drop Reason if they adopt similar policies.

Now FINANCING, which is sounds like many are discussing (e.g. rent to own, or payment programs), make a lot of sense to me. I've purchased much of my musical equipment with financing, and it enabled me to have access to gear I wouldn't otherwise have. Financing makes sense to me. When you've paid sufficiently, you get to keep what you've paid for. This is very different from a subscription, though.

[avasopht]

Adobe's feature upgrades since the subscription model include improvements to the magic wand and subsequently the ease of creating special effects without a green screen.

Also a better method of creating a painted look to videos.

Those upgrades aren't necessarily because of the subscription, but to say the upgrades haven't been significant would be terribly untrue.

And yes, financing would better describe the examples I've mentioned.

With Adobe, the subscription model makes it significantly easier to start a media company where everyone gets a legit license.

Charities and community organisations can run art summer programmes where every computer gets a license, rather than just that one machine in the corner with the I've fancy mouse mat

And no I'd say it's not a valid concern because there's no evidence that developers would suddenly laze about. If they stagnate people will migrate, and they'll move to another much quicker. No company would pay their developers to not work.

[ejanuska]

I'm against subscriptions, or financing, or renting, or whatever, might as well call it a tax. I finance cars and houses, not software.

I think Reason is fairly priced. If its too expensive because you live in country X, or you don't have a job, or some other situation then I suggest using something else as a DAW. There are free DAWs out there, and free OSs, use Ardour or Rosegarden.

How is it that anyone can afford a computer that can run Reason, and an audio interface, but not a few hundred dollars more for software?

[stfual]

Ive dumped Adobe because of the subscription model and moved to Affinity. I dont believe Adobe have provided any useful new features for a few years. 3D was interesting but their 3D performance is awful despite claims of using GPU processing etc . The only reason i would have wanted to upgrade for was 4K monitor support which they locked out of CS6 and works great in Affinity. . There is currently a model across the Software industry of bolt a new UI on mature software without changing or adding any key features and call it a significant upgrade. Microsoft have been doing this for a while ( I dont think there have been any new features for the average user in office since 2007). I have a microsoft office subscription at the moment and wont be renewing it because i rarely use office now and the open source products are adequate for what i need to do. I doubt I would go to a Reason subscription unless it was really compelling.

What i would go for is a single user subscription that allowed me access to multiple products one at a time. Say Office, Maya, Reason and Adobe were offered for a single reasonable personal user subscription price. Revenue could be allocated based on usage. I'm never going to buy Maya (or Adobe now) for home use but they could collect some revenue from me and expand their user base if they allowed their software into a home use bundle.
Something like netflix for software. Im surprised nobody has tried this yet.

[avasopht]

How is it that anyone can afford a computer that can run Reason, and an audio interface, but not a few hundred dollars more for software?

I purchased my current laptop for £150, I can get an even more powerful PC for £100. If they have their reasons they have their reasons. And who says they haven't financed their laptop? And even if they didn't, so what?

You don't like it. Then good for you.

I am asking for good ideas.

[synaptyx]

Frankly, subscription models are only good for the providers, not the customer. Adobe are a wonderful illustration of how to fleece your customers for their last cent and offer next to no value for your £600 per year. If Props take up subscription access, I'll have to have a serious think about continuing to support them.
I walked away from Adobe and bought Affinity Designer and Photo - never looked back. I'm not sure where I'd go after being on Reason since V1 and I don't want to, but increasingly props terrible customer service, inflexible bundling policy and ridiculously slow uptake on essential features are leaving me extremely frustrated.


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[avasopht]

Adobe are a wonderful illustration of how to fleece your customers for their last cent and offer next to no value for your £600 per year. If Props take up subscription access, I'll have to have a serious think about continuing to support them.

So have Adobe massively downsized their development, or are they paying hundreds of millions of dollars per year for developers to sit down and do nothing?

If they haven't downsized then you would need some other solid evidence other than, "I don't think the updates they've done are that complicated."

[avasopht]

Ditto for Microsoft Office. They spend something like $36-96 million per year on development of Office.

There is no "bolt on UI" model. Sometimes the change in UI is the result of a complete overhaul of the code base (which could take anywhere from 3-10 years of active development). So no, they're not going to overhaul the code base and try to copy the old UI.

Office changed their UI to greatly increase usability. In short they discovered that most features people were requesting were actually features office already had. So they set out to create a UI that made it easier to find features.

As to what Microsoft has added to office: http://time.com/4044050/microsoft-offic ... -features/

So no, I'll call BS on those claims of them not doing anything.

So far there is zero evidence of any developers twiddling their thumbs all day because they've got subscriptions. And I'm not just talking about Adobe style subscriptions, in fact what I described wasn't even a subscription but you pay for a year (or two) of updates from your purchase.

Everyone who buys gets the latest features, but from the date they purchased. It works well for the packages I use. And they are constantly introducing competitive features, so again, I call BS on the do nothing theory.

[synaptyx]

Adobe are a wonderful illustration of how to fleece your customers for their last cent and offer next to no value for your £600 per year. If Props take up subscription access, I'll have to have a serious think about continuing to support them.

So have Adobe massively downsized their development, or are they paying hundreds of millions of dollars per year for developers to sit down and do nothing?

If they haven't downsized then you would need some other solid evidence other than, "I don't think the updates they've done are that complicated."

You're putting words in my mouth. But I'll bite. I was subscribed to the full suite for 2 years and saw little improvement in either feature upgrades or stability improvements. That is my honest experience as a customer nothing more. At no point did I say they were sitting with thumbs up their asses (ref another poster) just that my experience of software rental was to my perception, given the lack of major upgrades to tech and stability, valueless for the £50 per month over that 2 year period. If I could have bought the software, I wouldn't have upgraded it for the second year given that nothing they presented was of value to me.

I'm not interested in Propellerheads pulling the same stunt. If props make some upgrades that look worth the upgrade price, I'll pay for that.


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[avasopht]

You're putting words in my mouth. But I'll bite. I was subscribed to the full suite for 2 years and saw little improvement in either feature upgrades or stability improvements. That is my honest experience as a customer nothing more. At no point did I say they were sitting with thumbs up their asses (ref another poster) just that my experience of software rental was to my perception, given the lack of major upgrades to tech and stability, valueless for the £50 per month. I'm not interested in Propellerheads pulling the same stunt. If props make some upgrades that look worth the upgrade price, I'll pay for that.


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Sitting with their thumbs up their asses is implied by the notion of fleecing customers for little to no updates, either that or them downsizing development.

You can find out more here: http://blogs.adobe.com/photoshop/2011/0 ... -team.html

In short he says, "monstrous REWRITE." So no, calling it fleecing, etc. is quite misguided.

Also I'll add that that's why I'm asking for good alternative ideas. If you can't think of any that's fine too, you're under no obligation to do so.

[synaptyx]

That's from 2011. I wasn't subscribed in 2011. I was subscribed from 2013-2015. And I still say that all the development I saw was in their software distribution (massively buggy and unreliable) and very little in the way of usability or feature improvements. At this point I have little interest in arguing personal end-user experience over some blog post from years before I was forced into renting their software for work so I'll leave it at this: I do not want a subscription model for Reason, because I don't believe it benefits the end user. Full stop.


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[Carly(Poohbear)]

I'm against subscriptions, or financing, or renting, or whatever, might as well call it a tax. I finance cars and houses, not software.

I think Reason is fairly priced. If its too expensive because you live in country X, or you don't have a job, or some other situation then I suggest using something else as a DAW. There are free DAWs out there, and free OSs, use Ardour or Rosegarden.

How is it that anyone can afford a computer that can run Reason, and an audio interface, but not a few hundred dollars more for software?

Totally agree..

1st stepping stone finance,
2nd stepping stone rent.
3rd stepping stone subscription.

I don't want to step onto any of them stepping stones, I've brought a bridge between the islands (versions\RE) and want to use only that...

[FlowerSoldier]

Now, I don't think any one is suggesting replacing purchasing a license with a subscription based model. You could still buy the license outright if you could afford it.
Props didn't even offer an upgrade from Essentials to Full until 3 weeks ago. They were fleecing folks to pay the full $399 even if they owned Essentials already before that.
I'm thinking about my Good Buddy who is stuck with Essentials and can't afford the Full Version of Reason. For people like him, a subscription model might work.
I also, am not a fan of subscriptions, but for some users it might be a solution. That being said, the Rent To Own model seems to be a pretty fair compromise, and better than paying into a bottomless pit with no ownership rights.

[avasopht]

@FlowerSoldier: Agreed, I think subscription where you must pay to continue using it might be a bit much, but I like the rent to own model.

That being said, if someone came out with a $5/mo DAW with the same features as Live, Reason, FLStudio or Bitwig Studio, you can bet your cotton socks that whatever it replicates will become obsolete within 5 years. Turn that to 2 years if that includes all sounds and an ongoing list of plugins.

You can also bet that someone somewhere is building such a beast for just about every product out there. I think this is why there's a bit of a rush from some to figure out the subscription model ASAP.