Tutorial: Beautiful Pluck Synth!

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selig
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Post 07 Apr 2015

Joerg wrote:Hey Avensa,
thanks for your video, even if it triggered a little dispute.
I don't know, if you meanwhile found the 'mistake' in your video against Mattias' version. He only fed one channel through the DLL1 and left the 2nd channel untouched. Then it makes sense to hard pan the original and the processed signal because they contain different sound information.
In your tutorial, you routed both channels to the delay, so there is same signal as before but just delayed. Then the hard panning actually doesn't make sense.
Mixing in some dry signal, as Selig proposed 
I didn't propose it, I was wondering if it was forgotten or intended. I couldn't propose any solution because I was not aware of the intention. I was giving Avensa the benefit of the doubt there…
:)
Joerg wrote:wouldn't make the (Haas) effect, that you probably intended. Sinistereo gave a hint but didn't offer the solution.
I agree with you, that the threads conversation was not very constructive because the basic falsity wasn't clarified initially. It sounds rather schoolmasterly to me.
Seligs discussion of mixer setting is basically correct but leads in subsequence to the failed Haas effect into the wrong direction.
My point is these tutorials have incorrect information in them, which Avensa seems unaware of to this date. Tutorials with incorrect information in them can do more harm than good IMO. I have every reason to believe Avensa is sincere with her desire to help others, and because of that I fully expect she will correct these various mistakes for the good of all those she is wanting to help!

:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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Sinistereo
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Post 07 Apr 2015

You have nothing to get defensive about here, just PLEASE listen to what we are saying to try to help you! You asked "what am I doing wrong", and all I can say is that we are trying to tell you - but you don't seem to be listening. IMO, it would be a shame if you left with these errors in your tutorials , but that's up to you
avensa wrote:
I am listening, and I appreciate you helping me, but what I'm saying is that I learned these tricks from other people (DDL-1 from Lucky Date & Mattias, splitting & panning from Dennis Pedersen etc..). The way you're saying it is making it sound like I came up with all of this stuff. I'll ask again, How do you make your synths stereo? What exactly am I doing wrong? Everything you see in my tutorials is what I've learned from professionals over the years, so give me a reason to why you wouldn't think I'd use them?
I'll happily answer these questions... I do wish that you would answer mine. I'm trying to be constructive and give you the benefit of the doubt, and again, I honestly would like to see you continue to make videos. Like Selig, I believe that tutorials with incorrect or bad information can do more harm than good.

Stereo perception requires that our ears hear different things. At the most basic level, this means either different sounds, or the same sound with a level (volume) difference or time difference between L and R channels.

Splitting then immediately hard-panning a signal doesn't give you a difference between L and R channels. Turning the pan knob gives you a level difference, and inserting a delay (less than 20 milliseconds) in ONE channel (but not both) will give you a time difference. The listener will perceive a time-difference signal as coming from the direction of the channel without the delay. (This is known as the Haas, or precedence effect.)

There is no difference between spitting a signal and hard-panning each split component and routing the same signal directly. You will achieve a doubling of volume (+6db), but you could easily do that simply by turning a knob clockwise.

(As an aside, mixing and signal level concepts are universal, regardless of the genre of music you are making... Final mix decisions may vary, but "hot" signals aren't any better suited for country western than EDM.)

If you spit your signal, you could apply some sort of processing, like a distortion unit, to one channel before hard-panning, and this would result in a difference between L and R channels, creating a stereo effect of sorts. In Mattias' video, he used TWO Maelstroms, detuning each in different directions, then hard-panned each synth, creating a subtle but effective stereo effect. (Or, again, a DDL-1 inserted into ONE but not both channels to create a Haas effect.)

Those are the basic principles that can be used to create stereo space. Selig and I asked you what you are trying to do, and you responded with appeals to the authority of other producers. To me, this suggests that you are still trying to learn and understand these concepts. Wonderful! My area of research includes acoustic perception, and I'm still getting things wrong (and learning) every day.

We're really not "slamming" you. Just trying to help. The errors you are making in your videos are relatively simple and get in the way of allowing you to express your creative sound design ideas.

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Joerg
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Post 07 Apr 2015

Hm. In my opinion the incorrect information in the video is the wrong setup of Haas effect. Actually I don't really know, if that was Avensas intention but I highly presume this. In her video, she is telling nothing about the reason why she dips the volume but it is basically correct setting since the mixer boosts (Mattias explained it in his video why he turned down the volume and you discussed it with Kloeckno).
For me, the point to rectify is the Haas effect routing and not the mixer setting. If that would be correct, the mixer is valid. Thats why I think, your insistance on the mixer and loudness is a bit offtopic in this place.

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Sinistereo
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Post 07 Apr 2015

Joerg wrote:Hm. In my opinion the incorrect information in the video is the wrong setup of Haas effect. Actually I don't really know, if that was Avensas intention but I highly presume this. In her video, she is telling nothing about the reason why she dips the volume but it is basically correct setting since the mixer boosts (Mattias explained it in his video why he turned down the volume and you discussed it with Kloeckno).
For me, the point to rectify is the Haas effect routing and not the mixer setting. If that would be correct, the mixer is valid. Thats why I think, your insistance on the mixer and loudness is a bit offtopic in this place.
This is a continuation of a discussion that began several videos ago. If you look at her other videos (and our discussion), you'll see that the present discussion is more relevant.

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avensa
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Post 07 Apr 2015

ll happily answer these questions... I do wish that you would answer mine. I'm trying to be constructive and give you the benefit of the doubt, and again, I honestly would like to see you continue to make videos. Like Selig, I believe that tutorials with incorrect or bad information can do more harm than good.

Stereo perception requires that our ears hear different things. At the most basic level, this means either different sounds, or the same sound with a level (volume) difference or time difference between L and R channels.

Splitting then immediately hard-panning a signal doesn't give you a difference between L and R channels. Turning the pan knob gives you a level difference, and inserting a delay (less than 20 milliseconds) in ONE channel (but not both) will give you a time difference. The listener will perceive a time-difference signal as coming from the direction of the channel without the delay. (This is known as the Haas, or precedence effect.)

There is no difference between spitting a signal and hard-panning each split component and routing the same signal directly. You will achieve a doubling of volume (+6db), but you could easily do that simply by turning a knob clockwise.

(As an aside, mixing and signal level concepts are universal, regardless of the genre of music you are making... Final mix decisions may vary, but "hot" signals aren't any better suited for country western than EDM.)

If you spit your signal, you could apply some sort of processing, like a distortion unit, to one channel before hard-panning, and this would result in a difference between L and R channels, creating a stereo effect of sorts. In Mattias' video, he used TWO Maelstroms, detuning each in different directions, then hard-panned each synth, creating a subtle but effective stereo effect. (Or, again, a DDL-1 inserted into ONE but not both channels to create a Haas effect.)

Those are the basic principles that can be used to create stereo space. Selig and I asked you what you are trying to do, and you responded with appeals to the authority of other producers. To me, this suggests that you are still trying to learn and understand these concepts. Wonderful! My area of research includes acoustic perception, and I'm still getting things wrong (and learning) every day.

We're really not "slamming" you. Just trying to help. The errors you are making in your videos are relatively simple and get in the way of allowing you to express your creative sound design ideas.

Thanks for that. I really appreciate it. I will experiment with the right way of doing it and will correct it future tutorials. There must be a misconception on by behalf about the splitting & panning. I was told numerous times that this made my sounds stereo, and that's why I did it. I knew it increased the volume, so I'd turn it down a little. Again, there must have been a misconception with the Haas effect. Again, I will fix that in future tutorials. I do hear quite a difference though, but maybe not the one I'm quite after.

Again, thank you very much for that. Will paste it into a text file to keep note of it. :)

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selig
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Post 07 Apr 2015

You have nothing to get defensive about here, just PLEASE listen to what we are saying to try to help you! You asked "what am I doing wrong", and all I can say is that we are trying to tell you - but you don't seem to be listening. IMO, it would be a shame if you left with these errors in your tutorials , but that's up to you
avensa wrote:
I am listening, and I appreciate you helping me, but what I'm saying is that I learned these tricks from other people (DDL-1 from Lucky Date & Mattias, splitting & panning from Dennis Pedersen etc..). The way you're saying it is making it sound like I came up with all of this stuff. I'll ask again, How do you make your synths stereo? What exactly am I doing wrong? Everything you see in my tutorials is what I've learned from professionals over the years, so give me a reason to why you wouldn't think I'd use them?
I hear everything you're saying. All I'm saying is what you "think" you're demonstrating is not what these other videos are demonstrating, as evidenced by the differences in the Mattias video and yours. I fear something has been lost in "translation" here…

And BTW, +1 to everything Sinistereo says, he stated it better than I was able to do!

And no, I'm not trying to give you credit for coming up with these effects, I realize these are concepts that have been around for a lot longer than any of us have been making music (and I've been making music for MANY decades now). 

The most basic issue I see is the idea that splitting a signal in to identical paths and panning these results in any change to that signal (other than a potential level change in some cases). Also, in this video the DDL-1 is simply delaying the entire signal by 19ms, which has no effect on the stereo width OR the level.

In other words, there are things that you are demonstrating in your videos that don't actually add any positive audio qualities to the sound, and more than anything that will be confusing to those trying to follow your instruction!

I've already pointed out that in Mattias's video he is doing things differently than you (if your intention was to show what he demonstrated). I will venture a guess I would find the same will be true of the Lucky Date and Dennis Pedersen videos if you posted a link to them. 

I would be more than happy to go through each of these techniques to compare what they demonstrate to what you demonstrate if you would in any way find that helpful. Again I'll say my intention is to help you help others, not to pick on your or slam your hard work. :)
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avensa
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Post 07 Apr 2015

I hear everything you're saying. All I'm saying is what you "think" you're demonstrating is not what these other videos are demonstrating, as evidenced by the differences in the Mattias video and yours. I fear something has been lost in "translation" here…

And BTW, +1 to everything Sinistereo says, he stated it better than I was able to do!

And no, I'm not trying to give you credit for coming up with these effects, I realize these are concepts that have been around for a lot longer than any of us have been making music (and I've been making music for MANY decades now). 

The most basic issue I see is the idea that splitting a signal in to identical paths and panning these results in any change to that signal (other than a potential level change in some cases). Also, in this video the DDL-1 is simply delaying the entire signal by 19ms, which has no effect on the stereo width OR the level.

In other words, there are things that you are demonstrating in your videos that don't actually add any positive audio qualities to the sound, and more than anything that will be confusing to those trying to follow your instruction!

I've already pointed out that in Mattias's video he is doing things differently than you (if your intention was to show what he demonstrated). I will venture a guess I would find the same will be true of the Lucky Date and Dennis Pedersen videos if you posted a link to them. 

I would be more than happy to go through each of these techniques to compare what they demonstrate to what you demonstrate if you would in any way find that helpful. Again I'll say my intention is to help you help others, not to pick on your or slam your hard work. :)
Thanks. And again, I was shown these methods by other producers, so I picked it up from them. Maybe they've learned since then (the video's are quite old) maybe not. I now understand the concept of hard panning for the stereo effect we look for after watching a video on it.

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Sinistereo
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Post 07 Apr 2015

selig wrote:And BTW, +1 to everything Sinistereo says, he stated it better than I was able to do!
And with that comment, I feel better today than I did when a (rather famous) neurology attending told me "hmph. I guess that's a passable explanation." Guess I have more respect for Giles! :)

I also want to see you grow and develop your skills. You are young, enthusiastic, and talented, and have the potential to really help the Reason community by producing high-quality tutorials! I'll take my professorial criticism off-line to PMs from now on if you wish; it was never my intention to shame or discourage you, Avensa.

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eusti
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Post 07 Apr 2015

avensa wrote:
Thanks. And again, I was shown these methods by other producers, so I picked it up from them. Maybe they've learned since then (the video's are quite old) maybe not. I now understand the concept of hard panning for the stereo effect we look for after watching a video on it.
I haven't seen the video, but from what I gain from the dialogue and feedback here is that you might have gotten some details not quite right from those producers. Either they didn't do it quite correctly or you didn't quite pick up all the details from them...
It seems that you want to teach, which is commendable, but I think people want to help you to make sure what you teach is actually correct.

D.

Hydrosonic
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Post 08 Apr 2015

I'm actually quite put off by the attitude that has befallen Avensa and her tutorials :frown:  She is at least trying, and doing a pretty good job of it.  The fun factor is I bought Seligs Leveller (previously named the Curve) with the hope of Tutorials, and still waiting.... sweet FA other than the demo vids, which dont explain much, yet here he is telling others how to make videos. Tutorials coming soon? Selig I won't hold my breath any longer sorry. And this isn't me making claims its on His own website.

Yes I understand getting the right info is good, but also supporting those that make the effort is good. 
rock and roll,  while been rock and roll, there are things I learnt, don't play by the rules, play by the same rules you set for others, (yeah selig some tutorials would be nice), fuck the rules!

Yeah... fuck the rules! I'm happy to do things wrong to get the right sound! ;) totally wrong to make a noise! :P with love <3 :)

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eusti
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Post 08 Apr 2015

Hydrosonic wrote: Yes I understand getting the right info is good, but also supporting those that make the effort is good. 
I'm not sure I understand, isn't this what is happening? In my understanding people are trying to support the person who wants to teach by telling her some details of her teachings are not yet correct.
What would you rather have? Ignore the tutorials? The errors?

D.

Hydrosonic
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Post 08 Apr 2015

maybe, I could have read it wrong, bit highly strung this morning. Sorry

What I mean is I don't want her to stop making vids  just because her knowledge lacks in some areas, so does mine, so will yours and Seligs.

That would be a shame if it puts her off making vids, its all part of her creativity.  



 

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eusti
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Post 08 Apr 2015

Hydrosonic wrote:maybe, I could have read it wrong, bit highly strung this morning. Sorry

What I mean is I don't want her to stop making vids  just because her knowledge lacks in some areas, so does mine, so will yours and Seligs.

That would be a shame if it puts her off making vids, its all part of her creativity.  

 
Thank you for explaining!

I agree, we can use more people making tutorials, but I think it's best if the info is actually correct.

D.

dflynn
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Post 08 Apr 2015

For what it's worth, this discussion has been very helpful. I know I learned some new things.

The attached song contains a combi that demonstrates the effect of panning, level adjustment, and delay in giving a mono signal a perceived stereo effect. Am I on the right track here? 

Dave

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avensa
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Post 09 Apr 2015

I tried making these tutorials helpful, clearly they weren't. I won't be doing anymore tutorials until everything I do is by the book, if there's such thing. I'll probably delete the tutorials, as they caused a bit of a dispute. Sorry about this.

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selig
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Post 09 Apr 2015

Hydrosonic wrote:I'm actually quite put off by the attitude that has befallen Avensa and her tutorials :frown:  She is at least trying, and doing a pretty good job of it.  The fun factor is I bought Seligs Leveller (previously named the Curve) with the hope of Tutorials, and still waiting.... sweet FA other than the demo vids, which dont explain much, yet here he is telling others how to make videos. Tutorials coming soon? Selig I won't hold my breath any longer sorry. And this isn't me making claims its on His own website.
Indeed I'm behind in my own tutorials. But partly because I'm spending my valuable time here helping others. Maybe I should focus more on making myself some $$ and less on offering my help for free? Otherwise, unless you are criticizing the QUALITY of my work, what you are complaining about is only the QUANTITY of my work. The quality of my work should stand on it's own, and should support the fact that I DO know what makes a good tutorial. Besides my own products I've created many tutorials for other devices, and also for the Props website!
Hydrosonic wrote:Yes I understand getting the right info is good, but also supporting those that make the effort is good. 
They are not mutually exclusive IMO - I feel I'm doing both here! It's also important to support those who are trying to learn, as they are totally trusting the tutorial makers to present accurate facts and information.  

Hydrosonic wrote:rock and roll,  while been rock and roll, there are things I learnt, don't play by the rules, play by the same rules you set for others, (yeah selig some tutorials would be nice), fuck the rules!
So you want me to play by the rules and finish some tutorials, or "fuck the rules" and continue to do what I've been doing all along?
Hydrosonic wrote:Yeah... fuck the rules! I'm happy to do things wrong to get the right sound! ;) totally wrong to make a noise! :P with love <3 :)
Seems like you are more upset I've not produced enough promised tutorials for my products rather than that I'm trying to encourage someone to produce higher quality work. Along those lines, what direction would you like to see my future tutorials go?

You also seem to be confusing doing something "wrong", which is how I and most others have learned much of what we know, with doing something that has NO audible results while believing that it does and (most importantly) while teaching others that it does. I see a huge difference between the two, speaking only for myself. :)
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kloeckno
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Post 09 Apr 2015

avensa wrote:I tried making these tutorials helpful, clearly they weren't. I won't be doing anymore tutorials until everything I do is by the book, if there's such thing. I'll probably delete the tutorials, as they caused a bit of a dispute. Sorry about this.
Don't do that! No one said they didn't want you to make tutorials. The only way to grow as a musician is to identify your areas of weakness or gaps in your knowledge. Look at the positive comments people gave!

Giles and the others just wanted to help you make the best tutorials possible.

Hydrosonic
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Post 09 Apr 2015

Sorry to hear that Avensa :frown:  I feared that may happen and thats a shame, I hope you reconsider, as regardless of the mistakes there was still something to learn from you and you did a good job with passion :)



lowpryo
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Post 09 Apr 2015

avensa wrote:I tried making these tutorials helpful, clearly they weren't. I won't be doing anymore tutorials until everything I do is by the book, if there's such thing. I'll probably delete the tutorials, as they caused a bit of a dispute. Sorry about this.
no reason to quit! everyone still has a lot to learn, and if you enjoy helping others out, keep trying! just try not to be offended if you make a mistake, because nobody's perfect.

you weren't criticized because your method wasn't "by the book". actually, your panning method was criticized because it wasn't doing anything to the sound at all! (I'm genuinely confused by how you heard a difference. maybe it was just slightly louder? that can play tricks with people.) either way, you've learned something, and from reading this thread, some other people have learned too. no harm done.

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selig
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Post 09 Apr 2015

avensa wrote:I tried making these tutorials helpful, clearly they weren't. I won't be doing anymore tutorials until everything I do is by the book, if there's such thing. I'll probably delete the tutorials, as they caused a bit of a dispute. Sorry about this.
OK, I'm going to try to encourage you to back down from "blank vs white" here and try to see some shades of grey. You ARE helping with your tutorials, but there are also mistakes in your tutorials. You have choices here: you can either take all your toys and go home, or you can learn from your mistakes and grow! When folks correct my mistakes I THANK them, make the corrections, and move on. Because more than anything, I want to help others excel at what they do by sharing the most useful (and accurate) information available.

And IMO it's not about doing things "by the book" (or every tutorial would be the same), it's about understanding the basics so you can share your personal insights about them with others. If you don't first understand the foundation of what you're teaching, you are more likely to present inaccuracies.

Bottom line: your choices here are to leave those inaccuracies, correct them, or just quit making tutorials. I encourage you to correct the inaccuracies, learn more about the basics that you are teaching, and above all enjoy the learning process! There are plenty here ready to help if you choose that course, and I truly hope that you do.

If you don't enjoying learning, I've found it difficult to enjoy teaching… ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

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eusti
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Post 09 Apr 2015

Avensa, I agree with the consent here: Use the feedback as something useful... Hints at how to improve...
And since you like making tutorials, continue to do so...

D.

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avensa
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Post 09 Apr 2015

I do really appreciate the feedback, it's just that what's the point in doing more tutorials with some more wrong information? There are many flaws to my tutorials, from resolution to no talk overs to wrong information etc..

The next post you'll see from me in the near future will be about my new refill. I really do appreciate all of the help. Thank you so much.

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eusti
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Post 09 Apr 2015

avensa wrote:I do really appreciate the feedback, it's just that what's the point in doing more tutorials with some more wrong information? There are many flaws to my tutorials, from resolution to no talk overs to wrong information etc..

The next post you'll see from me in the near future will be about my new refill. I really do appreciate all of the help. Thank you so much.
Well, in regards to your older tutorials, you could point out the new techniques in the description or I've seen some people add a layer of text on top of the videos (not that I'd know how they did it)...
In regards to resolution and voice over, I'd say, just do it better next time... That's how we learn, no?
We do something and we have the experience that something works better than something else... Or get helpful feedback... Then we know... And can teach it to others who don't.

D.

lowpryo
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Post 09 Apr 2015

avensa wrote:I do really appreciate the feedback, it's just that what's the point in doing more tutorials with some more wrong information? There are many flaws to my tutorials, from resolution to no talk overs to wrong information etc..
 
well, you know the flaws... so fix them! we believe in you.

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