Post your non-4/4 tunes here, plz!

[ChulaCoola]

Hi gothi -
I just saw this thread for the first time. I listened to "The Plough And The Sickle". What an great song! Is this based on another song, or is it your original?
 

[Gothi]

Hi gothi -
I just saw this thread for the first time. I listened to "The Plough And The Sickle". What an great song! Is this based on another song, or is it your original?
 

Greetings Chula. Thanks a lot for nice feedback. Every tune is my own

Nice Christmas holiday to you
Kindly
Gothi

[ChulaCoola]

love that 7/4 groove! I think that kind of playful use of syncopation in odd times can really help keep a solid groove.

here's one from the album I put out a while back---by far my most rhythmically complex song, but I think it all flows really well.


one turn of the verse is actually 2 bars of 4/4 followed by a bar of 5/4, then another 2 bars of 4/4. pre-chorus could be counted as 7/4, but I suppose it'd be more accurate to call it a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 3/4.

here's one I recorded with my band way back around 2010 or so--the verses are in 7/8, and the bassline and drums function similarly to your 7/4 beat.

guitfnky -

I love the song Finish Line. I especially like that chord progression you did a couple of times at the beginning before the vocals start. I dream of coming up with stuff like that. But I suppose you didn't spend all your time thinking of how to come up with that great progression, I am guessing it just happened.

I liked it so much I started googling 80's pop bands to see who the vocals sounded like. I came up with Depeche Mode. You sound very much like their vocalist. As well, I think the tune itself sounds like something they would have done also.

I think I'd rank that right up there with Policy Of Truth, and Duran Duran's Save A Prayer. Both great tunes.

[guitfnky]

love that 7/4 groove! I think that kind of playful use of syncopation in odd times can really help keep a solid groove.

here's one from the album I put out a while back---by far my most rhythmically complex song, but I think it all flows really well.


one turn of the verse is actually 2 bars of 4/4 followed by a bar of 5/4, then another 2 bars of 4/4. pre-chorus could be counted as 7/4, but I suppose it'd be more accurate to call it a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 3/4.

here's one I recorded with my band way back around 2010 or so--the verses are in 7/8, and the bassline and drums function similarly to your 7/4 beat.

guitfnky -

I love the song Finish Line. I especially like that chord progression you did a couple of times at the beginning before the vocals start. I dream of coming up with stuff like that. But I suppose you didn't spend all your time thinking of how to come up with that great progression, I am guessing it just happened.

I liked it so much I started googling 80's pop bands to see who the vocals sounded like. I came up with Depeche Mode. You sound very much like their vocalist. As well, I think the tune itself sounds like something they would have done also.

I think I'd rank that right up there with Policy Of Truth, and Duran Duran's Save A Prayer. Both great tunes.

wow, thank you for the very kind words! as for how it manages to come together, it's sort of a bit from column A, and a bit from column B...it rarely just happens--it usually starts with something that kind of sounds vaguely interesting, but isn't quite there, yet. then it's a matter of carving away at it, trying out different things to replace the bits I'm not quite happy with, until I find something I like. more often than not, after a good deal of iteration, I've got something salvageable. the few times it does sort of just 'come to me', it's usually after I've worked like that for 45 minutes or an hour, only to end up off on a tangent with something completely different (sometimes literally just a happy accident), and realize 'no, that's the part!' persistence probably plays a bigger part than anything else.

the comparisons to the singers you mention are humbling--I'll never be half as capable as any of them, but it means a lot to hear that I'm managing to do my songs that kind of justice. thank you again--I really appreciate it! happy holidays!

[Gothi]

Greeting
Here is a new track in shuffled 4/4 arab style, which you may recall I allowed in the OP. We mix nordic and eastern moods in this one.



Kindly
Gothi
ToH

[Gothi]

Greetings bards
Here is a new one from us going in 6/4. Some industrial synth bass, some paganism and Weiner classical.



Kindly
Gothi

[challism]

Regarding odd time signatures, I'm with Stuart Copeland. I've tried and tried to compose in something other than 4/4 and it just doesn't work for me.

[Gothi]

it just doesn't work for me.

It doesn’t work for most, but that is a habit of present culture and much less a personal choice than you may think. You have no idea of what you are missing, sir. The magic flow of numbers other than 4/4. The native ways. The endless variations versus the endless repetitions in 4/4. To each, his own.

Freya be with you

Gothi

[crimsonwarlock]

The endless variations versus the endless repetitions in 4/4.

So, your perception is that you can't do endless variations in 4/4? I'm currently working on a song that is in 4/4. It is close to 7 minutes long, yet no two bars are the same across the whole song.

Endless repetitions in 4/4 is basically a drummachine thing, and mostly the result of lack of imagination of the person programming it. It's perfectly possible to endlessly repeat a 7/11 rhythm without any variations

[Gothi]

The endless variations versus the endless repetitions in 4/4.

So, your perception is that you can't do endless variations in 4/4? I'm currently working on a song that is in 4/4. It is close to 7 minutes long, yet no two bars are the same across the whole song.

Endless repetitions in 4/4 is basically a drummachine thing, and mostly the result of lack of imagination of the person programming it. It's perfectly possible to endlessly repeat a 7/11 rhythm without any variations

It was not the point. Present culture does not use them endlessly but with re-usage of most. That is why DAWs offer tons of standard loops. Mathematically using more than one meter leads to more options, naturally. But this is not really a place to discuss this. Do you have any audio contributions to the thread?

Regards
Gothi

[guitfnky]

Regarding odd time signatures, I'm with Stuart Copeland. I've tried and tried to compose in something other than 4/4 and it just doesn't work for me.

the best way to get good musical results is to listen to music that does the things we're interested in. I never start out a song saying "I'm going to write in 7/8" or anything like that. for me, that's usually a great way to end up with a terrible idea that ends up rightfully scrapped. as we become familiar with other music in odd time signatures--to the point where we're able to internalize it--we will start to see that the potential to use those odd meter options in our own music increases.

similarly, playing around by writing parts for music we like in odd time signatures (e.g. taking a favorite record and working a new keyboard part over the top of it) will help to quicken that internalization.

the different meters are just tools, and it's usually better to pick up the right tool after we know what we want to make, rather than deciding "I'm going to make something with this tool".

[crimsonwarlock]

It was not the point.

But you did write " the endless repetitions in 4/4", as if 4/4 always means "endless repetitions" and only "the magic flow of numbers other than 4/4" can solve those endless repetitions

Do you have any audio contributions to the thread?

Nope, most of what I do musically is based in 4/4, you know, with those endless repetitions

[Gothi]

Do you have any audio contributions to the thread?

Nope, most of what I do musically is based in 4/4, you know, with those endless repetitions

C ya later, alligator, then.

Regards
Gothi

[aeox]

Can't lie.. I can't tell the difference in any timing , it all just sounds like music.

Go with what sounds good without restricting yourself to a "timing"

I don't mean to derail thread, i'm digging the music!

[Gothi]

WTF? I could swear the thread title says "Post your non-4/4 tunes here, plz!" and not "What do you think of non-4/4 signatures?". I could not care less about what people who do not use alternative signatures think about them, and I do not need any advice not to use them or care about them. This was originally a very nice and friendly thread. Then a mod came in with OT opinions about odd signatures, and now it is a ruin. Nice, friggin, nice. If you do not have any on topic contributions, go pick up your fights elsewhere. Internet kindergarden.

[Chizmata]

i'll contribute this EP, its written in multiple odd signatures, i cant recall which. doing those can feel really natural if you just focus on what sounds good in them.

[Gothi]

i'll contribute this EP, its written in multiple odd signatures, i cant recall which. doing those can feel really natural if you just focus on what sounds good in them.

Thanks for posting on topic, mate. It is nice easy listening. Even though the tempo is not slow, I chilled over the moods. You are good at making things happen without losing the laid back sense of it.

[challism]

Then a mod came in with OT opinions about odd signatures...

I don't think discussing odd time signatures in a thread about odd time signatures is going off topic. And my comment wasn't opinion-driven, I was merely trying to express my frustration with my inability to make anything musical in anything other than 4/4, even after repeated attempts. I didn't even state an opinion:

Regarding odd time signatures, I'm with Stuart Copeland. I've tried and tried to compose in something other than 4/4 and it just doesn't work for me.

How is that an "OT opinion"?

Not that you care, but I'm not opposed to odd time signatures, some of my favorite artists have written some great songs in odd time signatures, namely in 7/4, but I can't seem to crack the code. Apparently you and other do quite well at it, and I applaud you for it. But if we can't have a civilized discussion about odd time signatures in a forum dedicated to music, then I'm not really sure what a forum is for.

[crimsonwarlock]

But if we can't have a civilized discussion about odd time signatures in a forum dedicated to music, then I'm not really sure what a forum is for.

We could setup a separate topic to discuss odd time signatures, but I'm sure the mods would merge it wit this one before you can count a 4/4 bar

[Gothi]

Not that you care, but I'm not opposed to odd time signatures, some of my favorite artists have written some great songs in odd time signatures, namely in 7/4, but I can't seem to crack the code. Apparently you and other do quite well at it, and I applaud you for it. But if we can't have a civilized discussion about odd time signatures in a forum dedicated to music, then I'm not really sure what a forum is for.

Yeah, maybe my glasses got more and more foggy with my frustration. In that case I apologize, but the post that followed my answer to yours from another member was rather patronizing with lols and all. I took it out over all of you, I see that now. Sorry, bad day.

However, I have variations of this thread on other fora, and no one has never entered with hostile attitudes or advice not to care for timing. That has nothing to do with posting examples, and it does not feel welcome or relevant to me.

All is good here.
Peace be with you, Sir.
Freya loves us all anyway.

[crimsonwarlock]

...the post that followed my answer to yours from another member was rather patronizing with lols and all.

I guess you mean my reply there. I'd say you are the one that was patronizing, as if doing 'just' 4/4 is somehow inferior. I did point out doing a track in 4/4 where no two bars are the same rhythm-wise, but you chose to ignore that.

Also, the smilies were there to keep things light-hearted, but you went off the cliff.

That has nothing to do with posting examples, and it does not feel welcome or relevant to me.

But it might feel welcome and relevant to other users on the forum here. This is a public forum, you don't 'own' a topic, and you don't get to decide what people can or can't post. If replies are off-topic, mods will step in, but besides that, everyone is free to post their thoughts on a topic.

So, back on topic: In my prog-rock band, back in the eighties, we did a song in 11/4. It was fun to do, but not that earth-shattering of a difference with basic 4/4. But honestly, I think I have to revisit that song and maybe do a new version of it

[Chizmata]

i'll contribute this EP, its written in multiple odd signatures, i cant recall which. doing those can feel really natural if you just focus on what sounds good in them.

Thanks for posting on topic, mate. It is nice easy listening. Even though the tempo is not slow, I chilled over the moods. You are good at making things happen without losing the laid back sense of it.

thanks a lot for listening and your positive impressions

[Chizmata]

I was merely trying to express my frustration with my inability to make anything musical in anything other than 4/4, even after repeated attempts.

there are some methods to do this. i'll name 2:

1st: split up your bar into several easier signatures, then put them back together. so your 7/4 bar is actually composed as/of a 4/4 and a 3/4 bar
2nd: split a 7/4 bar into 16th notes. then group them to 4 packs of 7/16th. that way you keep a general 4/4 structure, but each "1/4" is split up into 7/16 instead of 4/16.

[Gothi]

I learned all this from an afro-american teacher who knew the native ways. He taught me how to use polyrhythms and find the flow of any odd or compound meter. He also taught me a native counting system based on simple math and African-Cuban clave theory, which is easily applied to any style, not just African or Cuban music. When making these threads, I am often impressed how people who do not necessarily have this training have this odd and compound meter intuition/sense anyway that they put into action. It is very exciting. This discipline is not for everyone, no. The cultural habit of 4/4 is that in which people are trained, and it is a strong habit. Now if people came asking, I could give an advice or two on alternative meters, but that is not what happened here. One of the features of my flows is that usually people do not notice they are not in 4/4 unless told or they are drummers. Even in 5/4 and 7/4. They may find something unusual without being able to point it out exactly, and that is what I aim for. That they can listen to and understand the meter intuitively without even knowing they do.

[Chizmata]

I learned all this from an afro-american teacher who knew the native ways. He taught me how to use polyrhythms and find the flow of any odd or compound meter. He also taught me a native counting system based on simple math and African-Cuban clave theory, which is easily applied to any style, not just African or Cuban music. When making these threads, I am often impressed how people who do not necessarily have this training have this odd and compound meter intuition/sense anyway that they put into action. It is very exciting. This discipline is not for everyone, no. The cultural habit of 4/4 is that in which people are trained, and it is a strong habit. Now if people came asking, I could give an advice or two on alternative meters, but that is not what happened here. One of the features of my flows is that usually people do not notice they are not in 4/4 unless told or they are drummers. Even in 5/4 and 7/4. They may find something unusual without being able to point it out exactly, and that is what I aim for. That they can listen to and understand the meter intuitively without even knowing they do.

thats the curse of odd meters, when you do them well barely anyone will notice

btw i dont think the 4/4 dominance is just culturally imposed, it has something to do with the way the mind comprehends. ive written a short essay about it, but its in german, so i just rushed it through google translate, but i think its mainly understandable:

The meaning of the 4 in rhythm.

Always only 4/4 time, we know that. But why? I've thought a few things about the topic.

The analysis:

We find the 4-fold repetition not only with 4/4ths, but also with the 4/16ths within a quarter note, with 4 bars of a rhythm or 4x4=16 bars of a sequence. Below it becomes blurry because a 16th note (or approx. 1/10th of a second) is approximately the smallest perceptible single tone (from approx. 32nd notes onwards several tones are perceived as one). Why the principle occurs less frequently above a duration of 16 bars will be shown below.

To start with, I'll start with some introspection: I hear a hi-hat, always repeated every 16th of a time. But intuitively I “hear”: 1234 1234 1234 1234. Why? I think the answer to this can be found in mathematics and the way consciousness works. I hear the first unit and think: "Aha, a tone" - I hear the second unit and think "Aha, the repetition of the tone" - I hear the third unit and think "Aha, another repetition of the tone". The “sound” is something that exists in the outside world, but the “repetition” is a concept of consciousness. With the fourth repetition something special happens: I not only hear the fourth repetition of the tone, but I also perceive the repetition of the first repetition (2x2 tones). This means that consciousness no longer refers exclusively to what is heard, but also to its own concept.

What follows is speculation for now. I assume that a psychological effect occurs through the change in the reference of consciousness from sound to one's own concept ("repetition"). This could be a reward effect, for example. This psychological event is stored as a new basic unit and as a result the 4-fold repetition of the hihat is heard as one unit. Now the principle is repeated: 4x the new basic unit = 4/4 cycle, again this is saved as a new basic unit. From 4/4 time it goes on to a rhythm of 4 bars and from there to a sequence of 16 bars. After that, in my opinion, the effect is lost. Anyone who has counted will notice: the principle is repeated exactly 4 times. from the 16th to the 4th, from there to 4/4 time, from there to 4 bars and from there to 16 bars. So after 16 bars the consciousness recognizes (careful now it hurts): A repetition of the repetition of the principle of repetition of repetition.

From this point onwards, the principle's appeal to consciousness appears to have been exhausted, perhaps as it now refers only to its own extra-sound principles, and it needs new acoustic input. Typically, from a length of 16 bars in 4/4 music, sequences of this duration that are less rhythmically and mathematically based, but rather freer, following other principles, appear.

Conclusion: The fourfold repetition is the smallest possible unit in which the consciousness can refer to its own processes instead of to the individual sound itself - or also: Here the path from the sound to the person is the shortest. That's why it's so popular and is a principle for rhythm like the chord progression 1451 is for melody or loudness for mastering. Similar to these principles, the principle of repeating the smallest unit four times usually occurs in complex variations and mixed forms, and expectations can also be consciously played with.