(EBM) We Frolic as our World Burns

This forum is for sharing your Reason creations with the rest of the community. If you post a song expecting feedback please take time to leave some for others.
Forum rules
Remember to begin your thread subject with a genre, ie.: (Hiphop) New instrumental
User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 01 Jan 2022

I started this thinking I would try to make some nasty industrial noise but pretty quickly found myself pulled in my usual "new age muzak" direction.

And that makes for a very strange combination — to say the least — and I'm left with zero idea how to declare a genre. Halp!

I could also use some hints at reference tracks for finishing the engineering. To which recordings am I here unknowingly paying homage?

Any other feedback would be more than welcome, but to be frank I'm inclined toward declaring victory over the composition and arrangement so I can move on to the next thing because "they" tell me that in the long term finishing fosters more growth than overthinking.

Last edited by integerpoet on 04 Jan 2022, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 2740
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 01 Jan 2022

The guitar sound could be more 'hardcore/doom sounding' than acoustic, so the same guitar arrangement but going through your favorite fx, making it progressively darker and darker (some kind of low pass automation + deeper reverb). Whole mix on a separate mix, guitar on a separate mix, both getting a different fade out speed. A dark and gloomy guitar at the very end only :thumbs_up:
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

User avatar
Benedict
Banned user
Posts: 2747
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 01 Jan 2022

Your description and what I hear is EBM/Industrial.

Finishing does bring more growth than obsessing.

There are things that could be done here for sure. But at the same time, it is close enough to call. It is already at a level that it may have appeared as an album track or b-side on a smaller EBM act's record. It grows clearer and stronger on a second listen. That puts it in win territory already.

I like the overall hopeful feeling. That it is not lumbered down with layers of nastification so all that is left is to hear is how "modern" you are is a breath of fresh air.

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 01 Jan 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
01 Jan 2022
The guitar sound could be more 'hardcore/doom sounding' than acoustic, so the same guitar arrangement but going through your favorite fx, making it progressively darker and darker (some kind of low pass automation + deeper reverb). Whole mix on a separate mix, guitar on a separate mix, both getting a different fade out speed. A dark and gloomy guitar at the very end only :thumbs_up:
I did surprise myself with this guitar sound, but it ended up reminding me a little of the actual acoustic guitars in "She Sells Sanctuary" and "Christine".

Your ideas are nevertheless worth exploring. It's not as if my original vision for this track lasted more than a few minutes. :-)

By the way, the "guitar" is Friktion + drawn chords + ST100, which does not get enough love.

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 01 Jan 2022

Benedict wrote:
01 Jan 2022
Your description and what I hear is EBM/Industrial.
Great! I will research that. Hilarious that I am about to do that against my own track. I love when my actual life resembles a cyberpunk novel from decades ago.
There are things that could be done here for sure. But at the same time, it is close enough to call.
Do you mean from an engineering perspective? Because all I've done to master it is press the magic button in Ozone. I was assuming it needed more effort — after I found some reference tracks — so if you have ideas I am all ears.
It is already at a level that it may have appeared as an album track or b-side on a smaller EBM act's record. It grows clearer and stronger on a second listen. That puts it in win territory already. I like the overall hopeful feeling. That it is not lumbered down with layers of nastification so all that is left is to hear is how "modern" you are is a breath of fresh air. :-)
For me this qualifies as very high praise indeed and I appreciate it.

User avatar
Benedict
Banned user
Posts: 2747
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 01 Jan 2022

If you want a fairly studied brief overview of EBM, this vid covers that:


You know the more I listen, the more this becomes itself so any of the initial (and actually arrogant) things about "need more bass" etc turn out to be wrong as while they may make it sound more like cliche whoever, they would actually take away from a lot of the actual sound that you have achieved. To anyone who steps past those assumptions, the smaller sound that you have here gives freedom for the more important (emotionally powerful) Story of the track. Listen to the power that acts like early Neon Judgment get with mixes that these days people would poo poo (and totally miss out on what is actually there and more brutal emotionally than their cliche Techno mixes).

What would I do if I were to have been sent it to mix? TBH not sure as I have a feel when I know I want to mix something but rarely make exact decisions in advance other than things like - "I really want to bring out that feel..."

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 01 Jan 2022

Benedict wrote:
01 Jan 2022
If you want a fairly studied brief overview of EBM, this vid covers that…
Ah. Many of these acts are familiar to me — even played them on my college radio show — but I just now learned the boundaries, so to speak, of the term. I kept these artists at arm's length until I had an opportunity to hear them in a club environment literally decades later. (If this track has a soul, it's stolen from a tiny club scene in San Diego, of all places, populated by aging goths and young BDSM exhibitionists and everything in between.)
You know the more I listen, the more this becomes itself so any of the initial (and actually arrogant) things about "need more bass" etc turn out to be wrong as while they may make it sound more like cliche whoever, they would actually take away from a lot of the actual sound that you have achieved. To anyone who steps past those assumptions, the smaller sound that you have here gives freedom for the more important (emotionally powerful) Story of the track.
More high praise. Thanks.
Listen to the power that acts like early Neon Judgment get with mixes that these days people would poo poo (and totally miss out on what is actually there and more brutal emotionally than their cliche Techno mixes).
I will definitely short-list NJ for my review of acts you mentioned with which I wasn't already familiar.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 2740
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 02 Jan 2022

integerpoet wrote:
01 Jan 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
01 Jan 2022
The guitar sound could be more 'hardcore/doom sounding' than acoustic, so the same guitar arrangement but going through your favorite fx, making it progressively darker and darker (some kind of low pass automation + deeper reverb). Whole mix on a separate mix, guitar on a separate mix, both getting a different fade out speed. A dark and gloomy guitar at the very end only :thumbs_up:
I did surprise myself with this guitar sound, but it ended up reminding me a little of the actual acoustic guitars in "She Sells Sanctuary" and "Christine".

Your ideas are nevertheless worth exploring. It's not as if my original vision for this track lasted more than a few minutes. :-)

By the way, the "guitar" is Friktion + drawn chords + ST100, which does not get enough love.
I don't know how to put labels on people's music, but your original description and the name of your track reminded me of Front 242's Headhunter. Not your music, the description.
We can all agree the Friktion tech should be pushed to develop many instruments :puf_smile:
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 02 Jan 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
02 Jan 2022
integerpoet wrote:
01 Jan 2022
By the way, the "guitar" is Friktion + drawn chords + ST100, which does not get enough love.
We can all agree the Friktion tech should be pushed to develop many instruments :puf_smile:
Friktion already gets plenty of love :-). ST100 is what I meant should get more. But I agree physical modeling in general is pretty great.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 2740
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 02 Jan 2022

integerpoet wrote:
02 Jan 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
02 Jan 2022

We can all agree the Friktion tech should be pushed to develop many instruments :puf_smile:
Friktion already gets plenty of love :-). ST100 is what I meant should get more. But I agree physical modeling in general is pretty great.
Yep, I have the ST100.
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 02 Jan 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
02 Jan 2022
… your original description and the name of your track reminded me of Front 242's Headhunter. Not your music, the description.
Understood. But I listened anyway. :-) I recognize it from the club, but this is the first time I have heard it on headphones. It's fascinating how the dryness of this mix translates into a big room with no acoustic treatment apart from writhing bags of mostly water. Who needs reverb in the mix when the assumption is the room will provide it?

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 2740
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 03 Jan 2022

integerpoet wrote:
02 Jan 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
02 Jan 2022
… your original description and the name of your track reminded me of Front 242's Headhunter. Not your music, the description.
Understood. But I listened anyway. :-) I recognize it from the club, but this is the first time I have heard it on headphones. It's fascinating how the dryness of this mix translates into a big room with no acoustic treatment apart from writhing bags of mostly water. Who needs reverb in the mix when the assumption is the room will provide it?
And if the sound system in the club was set with multiple mono loudspeakers, a more focused stereo mix (not much reverb/panning) in that space would have had a bigger impact also, imho. I don't know why it was mixed that way though.
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

User avatar
Benedict
Banned user
Posts: 2747
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 03 Jan 2022

If you are talking Front 242 "Headhunter V 3.0" off the "Front By Front" album, it seems to me it has plenty of reverb. Something like a digital plate I would guess. Short but very there. Bright but immediate & clear.

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 03 Jan 2022

Benedict wrote:
03 Jan 2022
If you are talking Front 242 "Headhunter V 3.0" off the "Front By Front" album, it seems to me it has plenty of reverb. Something like a digital plate I would guess. Short but very there. Bright but immediate & clear.
I probably should have gone to a more curated source than YouTube, but its search field was handy at the time.



I recklessly assumed the above was the mix of record. It says "official", so it must be, right? :-)

Now that I've tracked down 3.0 from a proper source, I hear you're correct. And now I want to track down the inevitable club mix of 3.0 to see how much reverb (and width) they gave it.

There's also a 1.0 on that album which makes me wonder whether it's the 1988 mix undamaged by a trip through consumer videotape. :-)

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 03 Jan 2022

integerpoet wrote:
03 Jan 2022
I recklessly assumed the above (video) was the mix of record. It says "official", so it must be, right? :-)

…And now I want to track down the inevitable club mix of 3.0 to see how much reverb (and width) they gave it.

There's also a 1.0 on that album which makes me wonder whether it's the 1988 mix undamaged by a trip through consumer videotape. :-)
My word.

Be careful what you wish for. Answers and answers and answers. And answers.

And more (presumably authorized by the artist) mixes than a sane person would dare to queue. And this does not speak well of my present mental health.

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 03 Jan 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
03 Jan 2022
And if the sound system in the club was set with multiple mono loudspeakers, a more focused stereo mix (not much reverb/panning) in that space would have had a bigger impact also, imho. I don't know why it was mixed that way though.
Speaking of which… One of the things I wish I had ready access to was a reasonably representative club environment. Imagine how annoyed the staff would get as some random hobbyist sat in the middle of the floor with a laptop mixing and mastering. But I totally would if I could, designating the result the "base" mix, and then go home and work on variations for consumer-grade stereo speakers and headphones. In the real world, how does one do that other than switch into mono and imagine and hope? And yes of course there are software simulations, but…

User avatar
Benedict
Banned user
Posts: 2747
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 03 Jan 2022

This video version does indeed seem dryier than the album version. had not noticed that. Yes, 242 were big in the remix thing. Lots of people were at the time. Every remix gave you another bite at the market.

I am not sure that mixing on a club PA would be wise. You might get it working there but probably translate terribly everywhere else. The biggest issue with taking home recordings to clubs (as I did several times - boy did the floor get a shock) is commonly too much bass as the PA is designed to make the most. If you already have too much - mmmph, blumph, mmgnh, blurgh is all you hear. Lots of Hi-NRG (and therefore highly possibly 242) was mixed on NS-10s - renown for nothing much beneath 60Hz.

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 03 Jan 2022

Benedict wrote:
03 Jan 2022
I am not sure that mixing on a club PA would be wise. You might get it working there but probably translate terribly everywhere else.
Indeed, but what if that were the assumption going in, with planned follow-up work: finish the club mix, go home, duplicate the project and keep engineering the duplicate for consumer speakers and headphones? Then for "My Great Track (club mix)" the parenthetical would mean more than additional breakdowns with ear candy.
The biggest issue with taking home recordings to clubs (as I did several times - boy did the floor get a shock) is commonly too much bass as the PA is designed to make the most. If you already have too much - mmmph, blumph, mmgnh, blurgh is all you hear.
That. Good headphones presumably help avoid the worst blunders, but they can't make your chest shudder. Finding the sweet spot between feeling the thump and drowning in blurgh seems like it ought to be more science than hope.

I would also like to move (my ears) through the overlapping projected cones of multiple mono speakers to get an idea of how they interact. Maybe it's not a huge deal if the room is designed properly?

User avatar
Benedict
Banned user
Posts: 2747
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 03 Jan 2022

Aah but this is the magic of really learning something like an NS-10 or an Auratone (the real ones, no idea about the clones and rebuilds) as the more you know how the music feels in them the better it will translate to anything from club to laptop.

Getting there is, to some extent, in letting go. As in not saying I can only do this if I have a 56" Sub with a 20,000 Watt Amp and a cattle prod up me unmentionables to let me know where the cowbell is.

Low bass and high highs are not really directly handled by the experienced mix engineer anywhere near as much as people think. We focus on Punch, Snap & Sizzle which are all in the middle of the band approx 80-6,000 Hz. Get them right and everything else follows. You can even reduce what is outside of that range and make it sound/feel better overall. This is why mixing music is best come at sideways. All recorded music (like a painting) is illusion.

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 2740
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 04 Jan 2022

integerpoet wrote:
03 Jan 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
03 Jan 2022
And if the sound system in the club was set with multiple mono loudspeakers, a more focused stereo mix (not much reverb/panning) in that space would have had a bigger impact also, imho. I don't know why it was mixed that way though.
Speaking of which… One of the things I wish I had ready access to was a reasonably representative club environment. Imagine how annoyed the staff would get as some random hobbyist sat in the middle of the floor with a laptop mixing and mastering. But I totally would if I could, designating the result the "base" mix, and then go home and work on variations for consumer-grade stereo speakers and headphones. In the real world, how does one do that other than switch into mono and imagine and hope? And yes of course there are software simulations, but…
It is not a bad idea, but you would still need some kind of a fake moving crowd around you, not just an empty club.
Regarding the NS-10s, the magic goal was to make them 'fart'. The distortion would make the white cones move like Jell-O when you hit the low frequencies you were trying to reproduce, at some volume. It was a visual feedback. What a torture those black and white things were. Thank you 1031A! :puf_smile:
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 9766
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 04 Jan 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
04 Jan 2022
integerpoet wrote:
03 Jan 2022

Speaking of which… One of the things I wish I had ready access to was a reasonably representative club environment. Imagine how annoyed the staff would get as some random hobbyist sat in the middle of the floor with a laptop mixing and mastering. But I totally would if I could, designating the result the "base" mix, and then go home and work on variations for consumer-grade stereo speakers and headphones. In the real world, how does one do that other than switch into mono and imagine and hope? And yes of course there are software simulations, but…
It is not a bad idea, but you would still need some kind of a fake moving crowd around you, not just an empty club.
Regarding the NS-10s, the magic goal was to make them 'fart'. The distortion would make the white cones move like Jell-O when you hit the low frequencies you were trying to reproduce, at some volume. It was a visual feedback. What a torture those black and white things were. Thank you 1031A! :puf_smile:
Gimme ns10s over 1031s any day, those things took my head off with the high end! ;)
Friends of mine would set the NS10s on the SSL bridge and set the overhead lighting so that the cones would be ‘illuminated’ only when they came all the way out. that was their ‘trick’ to judge low end even when having bigger monitors to work with (which were most certainly ALSO used for low end work).
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 2740
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 04 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
04 Jan 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
04 Jan 2022

It is not a bad idea, but you would still need some kind of a fake moving crowd around you, not just an empty club.
Regarding the NS-10s, the magic goal was to make them 'fart'. The distortion would make the white cones move like Jell-O when you hit the low frequencies you were trying to reproduce, at some volume. It was a visual feedback. What a torture those black and white things were. Thank you 1031A! :puf_smile:
Gimme ns10s over 1031s any day, those things took my head off with the high end! ;)
Friends of mine would set the NS10s on the SSL bridge and set the overhead lighting so that the cones would be ‘illuminated’ only when they came all the way out. that was their ‘trick’ to judge low end even when having bigger monitors to work with (which were most certainly ALSO used for low end work).
Yep, as I said : farting visual feedback, and paper towel with the right thickness near by :cool:
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 425
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 04 Jan 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
04 Jan 2022
It is not a bad idea, but you would still need some kind of a fake moving crowd around you, not just an empty club.
Well, sure, it wouldn't be perfect without the writhing bags of mostly water, but it would be better than nothing, I suspect.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 2740
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 04 Jan 2022

integerpoet wrote:
04 Jan 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
04 Jan 2022
It is not a bad idea, but you would still need some kind of a fake moving crowd around you, not just an empty club.
Well, sure, it wouldn't be perfect without the writhing bags of mostly water, but it would be better than nothing, I suspect.
And a way to make the bodies sweat a bit, based on the tempo and energy of your project.
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests