Same track Synth & Orchestral voicings - NOW with 3rd Track

[Benedict]

Hi All

I have been obsessing over having a typical ROMpler soundset on hand as I have been feeling that I should write with more "real" sounds for a wider audience. I tend to forget the FSB has all these sounds already so I decided to re-voice a new track - that was written with synthetic orchestral-style sounds.



This is the re-voice using Orkestra sounds (and a Bongo loop) so the only sound carried over is the Sea (noise patch). There are a few changes to notes to make it flow a bit better but otherwise exactly the same piece as the one below.



I find the two pieces have a rather different feel as a result. The orchestral version is probably easier on the casual ear but I wonder if it hasn't lost some magic that the synth version gives. No, I'm not saying up front what the intended theme was.

Any feedback welcome including on voicing. production etc.



Here is a new track which is entirely orchestral samples - no synths.



This one I wrote entirely from orchestral samples. There was no synth stage or sounds involved. I did this merely to see what would happen. Would I still feel the same as a composer etc? I have to say it is different but oddly I still progress in a similar way. The difference is in the sounds in that I have to start with are pre-defined "stock" sound and notes instead of creating synth textures that moved me. I started with the call & response between the clarinet and trumpet (you first hear as Violin and spizz Cellos) and expanded sections from there. It struck me as having a "folk" feel and as I went the idea of Pirates trying to have a civilized ball came about - probably as I know my orchestration is unusual.

Again, feedback and discussion welcome.

[Carly(Poohbear)]

My thoughts  :comp:

Orchestral in Italic
Synth in bold

Note the timings are rough

first 20/30 seconds
Sounds like sea and wind more subtle 

sounds like wind in a cave more eerie (prefer).

Next 30 seconds.
Weak, strings sounds disjointed.

A lot more rhythmic, like the sounds used here (Prefer).

Minute mark.
Nice sounding strings, very clear and clean (Prefer).

Nice layer of Synth here.

1:35 mark.
The horn sound, sounds very similar in both parts, bit more reverb in the Synth part.
Both sounds fit, no real preference there.

2:11 mark.
The orch sounds more dramatic at this part

the synth part just merges in.

2:48 mark, where the flow changes.
The change over is better in the orch however after that little bit again I prefer the Synth. 

3:25 mark
Don't really notice a change here

Like the pick up of the rhythmic part again.

Would be interesting to use the strings from the Orch and layer them in the synth song.

So I prefer the Synth over the orch mainly because of the rhythmic feel it has going on.. 

Being a gamer I could see the Orch being used in a fantasy RPG. The Synth more futuristic.

Not sure if that's the sort of feedback you are after or not...  

 

 

[Benedict]

Thanks Mr Bear

I definitely appreciate the feedback. Offline feedback I have so far (and actually the way I feel) is that the original synth version has more feel.

I agree the orch version sounds more like a game soundtrack or MIDI movie score but I feel that it loses some of the real art in favor of just trying to be an orchestra and that cliche. Plus the synth version has a cool triplet thing going on with the "bongos" that doesn't really carry over with the Rex loop which is isn't triplet, just lots of delays. Perhaps a fusion is a thing to try -  good idea.

ASIDE: Odd really as the synth version should be more futuristic and suited to fantasy games than orchestral samples. But oddly gamers seem more turned on by orchestral pastiches that really hark backwards than synthetic score that is new territory. Wonder why? Unless of course true electronic music is seen as a thing of the past.

Maybe next track I will try composing with orchestral sounds from the start and then convert to synth to see what happens then. 

Thanks again.

[Carly(Poohbear)]

I don't really see fantasy games as futuristic, just a different time and place and the big sounds without a doubt have come across from the film world as it's such big business now (games market is bigger than the film market in the UK).

Your Synth song would suit a space game..

Now all this talking of games is making me remember the good old days of the C64 and the songs they got out of that little chip... just 3 voices hmmm, maybe I have just challenged my self LOL

Maybe next track I will try composing with orchestral sounds from the start and then convert to synth to see what happens then. 

Experimenting is a great thing to do with music  :s0511:  

[Benedict]

Yes you are probably right that computer games have worked to seem more like film quality so taking (pseudo) orchestral score helps players feel they are making that transition.

I often watch modern (cheaper) films and the use of fake orchestras can be annoying, esp when they overuse things like NI Action Strings. The second Ghost Rider movie is typical. I'd far prefer Night Rider and the simple sequences as it feels more authentic -  or at least less like a con.

[selig]

Hey, fascinating thread as always!

I'm the "compromise" guy, and when I have two choices I often try to use both! I've got tons of stuff that's strings/synths together, but I've always been that way (combining synths/samples and acoustic instruments).

As for "Action Strings", was just talking to Josh Mobley about that being almost a requirement for film trailers. I'm kinda glad I don't have that library (and can't recognize it), so I can still enjoy soundtracks that use them.  

Quick question: if you produced the tracks in the reverse order, would the outcome have been any different in your opinion?

[Benedict]

Hi Selig

Thanks for happenin' along. Believe me Action Strings is best not known. Still you will hear it all over the place and wonder why the orchestrator has abandoned actual melody in place of bang, bang bang (or should that be "hack").

Traditionally I have found it hard to write anything with sample instruments (think 90's ROMplers) as they left me feeling so flat. Now some of the new players like Roland's Integra seem like they can deliver a fluid sound from samples. I love the sound of synths and the feel they give me. That made me very synth overall. Admired others who worked both together but it didn't feel "real" in my work. I would rather make a synth that sounds like... Call me old fashioned (or unfashionable at least).

I intend to try starting with Orkester samples next time to see what happens. I am much better with notes now so maybe that will help. I may even try a mix of the two tracks as there are parts of each I like.

Selig: I notice you didn't have any opinion either way. Is this because you don't like either - you can say. Also did you see the use I made of your Suspended Cymbal ReFill - track on The Deep Deeps? Thanks again, I think it made the piece.
https://benedictroff-marsh.bandcamp.com ... orld-weary

[Benedict]

Hi All

Today didn't go to plan so I made a new piece, as intended completely from FSB samples and nothing remotely synthy.



This one I wrote entirely from orchestral samples. There was no synth stage or sounds involved. I did this merely to see what would happen. Would I still feel the same as a composer etc? I have to say it is different but oddly I still progress in a similar way. The difference is in the sounds in that I have to start with are pre-defined "stock" sound and notes instead of creating synth textures that moved me. I started with the call & response between the clarinet and trumpet (you first hear as Violin and spizz Cellos) and expanded sections from there. It struck me as having a "folk" feel and as I went the idea of Pirates trying to have a civilized ball came about - probably as I know my orchestration is unusual.

Again, feedback and discussion welcome.

[Last Alternative]

Hmm. They are both good but I prefer the orchestral one. They each have their own feel. The symphony version has a more emotional and realistic response from me in that it sounds more organic and grounded. But the synth one is more cosmic and what I'm used to hearing from you. That makes it feel more magical. I think you should have them both on your album. Maybe the synth one first and then later in the album have the orchestra version.

Those instrument patches sound amazing. In some respects Orchester is better than Miroslav. They both have strengths and weaknesses. I really need to use Orchester more. Like in my new one I posted last night- the cello is from Miroslav but I'm thinking I can find a better cello sound that fits better in the mix.
Great writing, Benedict. You get a virtual standing ovation!
I don't even have to mention your world class production.. it speaks for itself. I wish you were my producer.

[Benedict]

Thanks Mr Alternative.

You are thinking what I am thinking. Others have suggested combining the two and I will try but if it doesn't pan out then one version will be album and other Bonus. Which one will depend on where the album takes a sample or synth direction.

The trick with FSB sounds - the raw instruments - is in placing them in space. The basic NN samples are very dry so they sound papery and lacking. Pop a few layers of reverb etc and they do improve hugely. This I have learned from watching videos on other sound sets. This is where we are particularly lucky to have both RV-7 (little red one) and the RV-7000 reverbs as each has a very different effect. RV-7 is just superb for making a sound really fat (and wide). RV-7000 provides a more natural space. I have tended to add the RV-7 at the instrument level and then a general shared room reverb.

I did do it differently on the third track The Pirate's Ball and followed what most people seem to be doing and used three sends and no inserts at all:

1. my usual handmade reverb which for some instruments I used lots of
2. a RV-7
3. The Echo

Thanks for the kind words and I have offered to beat you and your record into shape several times. You only have to ask. I'm not working right now so...

[Last Alternative]

I could send my latest to you but I'm not sure how to send the whole .reason file.

[eusti]

I could send my latest to you but I'm not sure how to send the whole .reason file.

Dropbox?

D.

[eusti]

And I'd really like to hear what that mutual effort might result in!

D.

[Benedict]

Yes, pop it in Eusti's Dropbox.

Actually no use your own and "Share" it with me. I am on 8.2 now so I we need to both have that version for you to load changes on your end - of course I can just Render if we agree on the mixdown.

And thanks Eusti on the enthusiasm.

[Last Alternative]

I don't like Dropbox so I used Google drive. Sent you a link, Benedict. It's on your PM here. Can't wait to hear what you do with it!!!!!
Just give a confirmation that you got it. Man it took almost an hour to upload!

[Benedict]

Check your PM Mr Alternative