The dragon and the hero (orchestral)

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sgiallo
Posts: 47
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Location: Italy

Post 15 Feb 2015

Hi everybody,
this is a orchestral piece I made

https://soundcloud.com/esse-giallo/the- ... d-the-hero

I don't know if it works or not and I'm sure the mix could be better, but I have difficulties to figure out how.

Thanks for listening!

sgiallo
Posts: 47
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Location: Italy

Post 16 Feb 2015

no one?

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Tau Ceti
Posts: 75
Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Location: Sweden

Post 16 Feb 2015


It's a good song.
Think the mix sounds good.

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darkmode
Posts: 178
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 16 Feb 2015

Nice work. I like your transitions and like your work on the percussion.

From what I've been learning, the trick to mixing orchestral pieces is not to over produce if you are trying to go for a realistic full orchestra sound.
 If you are in a concert hall you are hearing the instruments in there 'dry' state, (other than the ambience of the hall itself) and therefore eq carving is not as necessary as it can be in some other genres.
 The important aspects are intrument placement in the stereo field. There are several orchestra layouts you can find online which can assist in this. The use of reverb is relevant in regards to how close certain parts of an orchestra are to the listener, for example, cellos are usually closer to the listener, being at the front normally to the right of the conductor, than the brass section which is center, rear. Therefore you would need create a sense of depth with a slighter deeper reverb on brass and less on cellos.
 I note that you have paid attention to stereo placement.

The layering of different samples of the same intruments can also help sampled sounds sound more realistic. Also the use of automation on volume on specific notes makes a world of difference. Very time consuming but well worth it. There are some great tutorials on YouTube that I have found have been of great help to me.

 I'm looking forward to hearing your future compositions.

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selig
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Post 17 Feb 2015

sgiallo wrote:Hi everybody,
this is a orchestral piece I made

https://soundcloud.com/esse-giallo/the- ... d-the-hero

I don't know if it works or not and I'm sure the mix could be better, but I have difficulties to figure out how.

Thanks for listening!
I agree with dark modes comments about reverb and panning. Some elements do not sound as blended as others IMO. This is most apparent at around 2:00 when everything goes from a concert hall to a dry studio. Other examples are the snare drum, which (as I well know from experience) is always in the back of the orchestra and therefore will have the most ambience/room compared to other instruments.

Listening to an inspirational recording that embodies what you are going for would be most helpful here, just as it is for other styles of music!

Also, in the first two minutes there is so much bass drum at times all I hear is rumble. I would suggest using tympani for some of the hits and save the bass drum for the larger accents. You can also try using a taiko drum in place of (or in addition to) the concert bass drum.
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sgiallo
Posts: 47
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Location: Italy

Post 17 Feb 2015

Tau Ceti wrote: It's a good song.
Think the mix sounds good.
Thanks man!!!
darkmode wrote:Nice work. I like your transitions and like your work on the percussion.
(...)
 The important aspects are intrument placement in the stereo field. There are several orchestra layouts you can find online which can assist in this. The use of reverb is relevant in regards to how close certain parts of an orchestra are to the listener, for example, cellos are usually closer to the listener, being at the front normally to the right of the conductor, than the brass section which is center, rear. Therefore you would need create a sense of depth with a slighter deeper reverb on brass and less on cellos.
 I note that you have paid attention to stereo placement.

The layering of different samples of the same intruments can also help sampled sounds sound more realistic. Also the use of automation on volume on specific notes makes a world of difference. Very time consuming but well worth it. There are some great tutorials on YouTube that I have found have been of great help to me.

 I'm looking forward to hearing your future compositions.
yeah you're definitely right. I admit I go quite randomly especially with reverbs. I know how they work in theory but I can hear the difference only when I push them a lots.

Can you link me some of the tutorial and materials you're talking about?
 
 
selig wrote: I agree with dark modes comments about reverb and panning. Some elements do not sound as blended as others IMO. This is most apparent at around 2:00 when everything goes from a concert hall to a dry studio. Other examples are the snare drum, which (as I well know from experience) is always in the back of the orchestra and therefore will have the most ambience/room compared to other instruments.

Listening to an inspirational recording that embodies what you are going for would be most helpful here, just as it is for other styles of music!

Also, in the first two minutes there is so much bass drum at times all I hear is rumble. I would suggest using tympani for some of the hits and save the bass drum for the larger accents. You can also try using a taiko drum in place of (or in addition to) the concert bass drum.
 
thanks a lot for the precise comments, hey help a lot. I normally use for reverbs the basic reason template (room and plate). Do you think this could be a limit?


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Concep
Posts: 105
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 17 Feb 2015

I was just going to suggest All_Filmscore for RV7000 but you beat me to it. :s0230:

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selig
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Post 17 Feb 2015

sgiallo wrote:
Tau Ceti wrote: It's a good song.
Think the mix sounds good.
sgiallo wrote: Thanks man!!!
darkmode wrote:Nice work. I like your transitions and like your work on the percussion.
(...)
 The important aspects are intrument placement in the stereo field. There are several orchestra layouts you can find online which can assist in this. The use of reverb is relevant in regards to how close certain parts of an orchestra are to the listener, for example, cellos are usually closer to the listener, being at the front normally to the right of the conductor, than the brass section which is center, rear. Therefore you would need create a sense of depth with a slighter deeper reverb on brass and less on cellos.
 I note that you have paid attention to stereo placement.

The layering of different samples of the same intruments can also help sampled sounds sound more realistic. Also the use of automation on volume on specific notes makes a world of difference. Very time consuming but well worth it. There are some great tutorials on YouTube that I have found have been of great help to me.

 I'm looking forward to hearing your future compositions.
sgiallo wrote:
yeah you're definitely right. I admit I go quite randomly especially with reverbs. I know how they work in theory but I can hear the difference only when I push them a lots.

Can you link me some of the tutorial and materials you're talking about?
 
 
selig wrote: I agree with dark modes comments about reverb and panning. Some elements do not sound as blended as others IMO. This is most apparent at around 2:00 when everything goes from a concert hall to a dry studio. Other examples are the snare drum, which (as I well know from experience) is always in the back of the orchestra and therefore will have the most ambience/room compared to other instruments.

Listening to an inspirational recording that embodies what you are going for would be most helpful here, just as it is for other styles of music!

Also, in the first two minutes there is so much bass drum at times all I hear is rumble. I would suggest using tympani for some of the hits and save the bass drum for the larger accents. You can also try using a taiko drum in place of (or in addition to) the concert bass drum.
sgiallo wrote:  
thanks a lot for the precise comments, hey help a lot. I normally use for reverbs the basic reason template (room and plate). Do you think this could be a limit?
I would definitely try the Hall algorithm. Increase the size a bit, and try the different room shape options (I tend to like room 4 for some reason). Listen on percussion so you can better judge the reverb's envelope. From there it's a feel thing, making adjustments to the send amounts for each instrument to build the "sound stage". Again, comparing to orchestral recordings you like is key IMO. :)
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Last Alternative
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Location: the lost desert

Post 17 Feb 2015

Man I'd go with the full orchestra RV7000 preset and change it some to fit. It's really good music but it doesn't seem to be the right space. It's all over the place room/hall-wise and feels a little awkward right now as is. Same with the panning. You should research orchestra seating charts. I used to write... well, still will but haven't in a while... orchestral music and panning according to actual seating arrangements and using the full orchestra preset was the best thing I ever did to make it sound more real.
I might be repeating others here a little but that's my take.

You want it to sound as cinematic or real as possible and squeeze in the other electronic or sample stuff where it fits. But yeah man cool melodies and highs/lows.
https://lastalternative.bandcamp.com
:reason: 10.4 | iMac (27" Retina 5K, late 2015): OS Mojave, i7 Skylake @ 4GHz, 1TB SSD, 32 GB RAM, Radeon M395X | lots of sick gear

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BarbaraC
Posts: 35
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: East Greenbush, NY

Post 18 Feb 2015

I was so wrapped up in listening that I noticed nothing wrong. Reading through the constructive criticism, I certainly learned a thing or two, but for me, melody nevertheless trumps all. In other words, I really liked it.

sgiallo
Posts: 47
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Location: Italy

Post 18 Feb 2015

Thanks! I'm gonna check them!

selig wrote: I would definitely try the Hall algorithm. Increase the size a bit, and try the different room shape options (I tend to like room 4 for some reason). Listen on percussion so you can better judge the reverb's envelope. From there it's a feel thing, making adjustments to the send amounts for each instrument to build the "sound stage". Again, comparing to orchestral recordings you like is key IMO. :)
So I should only use 1 type of reverb right and differentiate each instrument by the amount of send right?
 
 
Last Alternative wrote:Man I'd go with the full orchestra RV7000 preset and change it some to fit. It's really good music but it doesn't seem to be the right space. It's all over the place room/hall-wise and feels a little awkward right now as is. Same with the panning. You should research orchestra seating charts. I used to write... well, still will but haven't in a while... orchestral music and panning according to actual seating arrangements and using the full orchestra preset was the best thing I ever did to make it sound more real.
I might be repeating others here a little but that's my take.

You want it to sound as cinematic or real as possible and squeeze in the other electronic or sample stuff where it fits. But yeah man cool melodies and highs/lows.
Thanks!
BarbaraC wrote:I was so wrapped up in listening that I noticed nothing wrong. Reading through the constructive criticism, I certainly learned a thing or two, but for me, melody nevertheless trumps all. In other words, I really liked it.
Thanks!
Last Alternative wrote:Man I'd go with the full orchestra RV7000 preset and change it some to fit. It's really good music but it doesn't seem to be the right space. It's all over the place room/hall-wise and feels a little awkward right now as is. Same with the panning. You should research orchestra seating charts. I used to write... well, still will but haven't in a while... orchestral music and panning according to actual seating arrangements and using the full orchestra preset was the best thing I ever did to make it sound more real.
I might be repeating others here a little but that's my take.

You want it to sound as cinematic or real as possible and squeeze in the other electronic or sample stuff where it fits. But yeah man cool melodies and highs/lows.
Thanks! I'll look at some orchestra charts.


Does anyone use the miroslav refill? Do you normally use the combinator patch or the nnxt ones? The combinators ones are already panned and reverbered so I think I should rework them right?
 
Thanks everyone, you do really help a lots

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selig
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Post 18 Feb 2015

selig wrote:I would definitely try the Hall algorithm. Increase the size a bit, and try the different room shape options (I tend to like room 4 for some reason). Listen on percussion so you can better judge the reverb's envelope. From there it's a feel thing, making adjustments to the send amounts for each instrument to build the "sound stage". Again, comparing to orchestral recordings you like is key IMO. :)
So I should only use 1 type of reverb right and differentiate each instrument by the amount of send right?
Yes, the idea being all the instruments are in "one" space, so you use "one" reverb to create that space. Alternatively you can use two reverbs to create one space, one for the early reflections and one for the long reverb tail. You may also consider running two RV7000s for "true stereo", in that it will help the reverb come from the same panning position as the instrument itself. To create a true stereo version of an RV7000, duplicate the RV700 and use the left input on both devices, but the left output from one and the right output from the other. 
sgiallo wrote:Does anyone use the miroslav refill? Do you normally use the combinator patch or the nnxt ones? The combinators ones are already panned and reverbered so I think I should rework them right?
 I typically use the NNXT versions to conserve CPU and to gain control over the issues we are speaking of here. IIRC, the panning comes from the stereo recording used for the sample. Most orchestral recordings are based on a single pair (or maybe two pair) of microphones in a stereo configuration. "Spot mics" are used to adjust levels if necessary, but a well recorded and talented ensemble in a decent room should yield a great recording with just the stereo pair. I imagine that's how these samples were recorded, which of course would preserve the natural panning of the instruments (but you are "stuck" with their positions - not a bad thing in this case IMO). :)
 
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normen
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 18 Feb 2015

Theres two main ways to mix an orchestral soundtrack. One is the classic "european" sound where it basically sounds like its recorded in place, so you have large reverb tails and the instruments sound a bit "far away" according to the depth of the orchestra and the instruments in the room/hall. Then theres the "hollywood" sound where the instruments are picked up very close and you get very "saw-y" strings, everything sounds quite close. This track is a bit indecisive "in between" those two, the very close sounding instruments throw me off a bit, I'd go for the classic european sound if I was to mix it. Especially with sampled instruments the "hollywood sound" is sometimes hard to achieve and needs a lot of fiddling with the MIDI notes to get the sounds right, if you have lots of reverb (european sound) you can "hide" these things a bit better. The RV-7 is a good tool to "move instruments away" by using it before the main reverb to add some early reflections, I guess I'd use that a lot on this track.

But nonetheless, a very nice track, great work!

sgiallo
Posts: 47
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Location: Italy

Post 01 Mar 2015

Hi everyone, I tried to rework the track following your advice.

Do you think it has improved?

https://soundcloud.com/esse-giallo/the- ... the-hero-1

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