Post your non-4/4 tunes here, plz!

[Gothi]

btw i dont think the 4/4 dominance is just culturally imposed,

Well, I can say that for native african drummers it is all about the number 12, which can be divided with both 3, 4, 2, and 6. My own teacher was rather crazy about it and told me it was the secret number of the universe + a lot of other spiritualistic stuff. But that comes with the package. You do not go native african without the woodoo, and it was worth it. I admire his patience for trying to get my spoiled little white butt in line with his cultural roots and religion.

[challism]

I was merely trying to express my frustration with my inability to make anything musical in anything other than 4/4, even after repeated attempts.

there are some methods to do this. i'll name 2:

1st: split up your bar into several easier signatures, then put them back together. so your 7/4 bar is actually composed as/of a 4/4 and a 3/4 bar
2nd: split a 7/4 bar into 16th notes. then group them to 4 packs of 7/16th. that way you keep a general 4/4 structure, but each "1/4" is split up into 7/16 instead of 4/16.

Thanks for the tips!

[Gothi]

Greetings. Hope this little consideration can be helpful to those who like to enter this field, but may find it difficult.

A Simple guide into odd or compound meters

1. Think of a steady hi hat in, say, 120 bpm. The same sample just ticking ahead tik tik tik tik tik tik tik tik: This is called a count.

2. Now, decide which meter you want to play in. 5/4? 6/4? Let´s say we choose 7/4. Make an accent on the hihat on 1 in every measure. TIK-tik-tik-tik-tik-tik-tik. Now you have turned your count into a meter.

3. Now it is time to add a clave. In native african-cuban music a clave is the ground figure of a rhythm. It is called a clave because it is often marked by the high pitch of that instrument, but it need not to be, it could be any drum that is in charge of the clave. Here we can do it by accents alone. Keep the accent on 1 and add another on 5 and 7. Now we have a ground figure TIK-tik-tik-tik-TIK-tik-TIK.

4. Now you can add more drumbeats. A bd could take 1 and 5, a tom 7 and 1 together with the bd. As long as the clave rules the rhythm, you can play with syncopes around it or place things directly on top of it as you like.

An example of the clave in question you can hear in this tune in 7/4. To the right the clave 1-5-7 is introduced by a native drum. Everything else is build around it or on top of it. You will hear the clave be supplied with a guitar that follows it precisely and eventually supporting strings.




5. To expand complexity and work with polyrhythms there are some simple basics to get one started. Let´s say we want to play a meter of 3 against a meter of 4. The numbers of beats needed for this is easily calculated, we simply need the nearest number that is divisible with both, and that is 12. They share an accent on 1, but one makes accent in in periods of 3, the other in 4. The same with more fancy stuff, e.g. 5 against 4 = 20 beats needed. 2 against 3 against 5 = 30 beats and so forth.

Hope this makes sense and may be useful.

Kindly
Gothi

[selig]

Over my many years I've explored odd time sigs lots of time. One of my first 'written' tunes was in 15/16 (7/8 + 4/4) and I'm always going back and revisiting these ideas.
Here's a work in progress based on an Absynth patch which I felt had a bit of "swing" to it. So I approached the drums with a more "groovy" feel to see what happened.
Happy to be able to contribute something to the conversation, musically speaking:

[bossa]

On my last album, which is called Mambial (https://tr.ee/cqlcT1MUKl), I published the piece "the flight from the clouds" with the time signature 5/8. The special thing about it is that the tempo is slowed down every 4 bars and then resumes the original tempo.
I got this idea from the Icelandic composer Johann Johanson, who provided the reference composition with his piece "the flight from the city". In a way, my piece "the flight from the clouds" is a soundalike.

[Gothi]

Greetings. Thanks for the contributions, fellows. ^^^ Exciting stuff.

Kindly
Gothi

[mcatalao]

I actually write a lot of stuff in 6/8 and 12/8, it's not such an odd signature but I'm very driven to it.

This is a song i did when my first daugter was on her way, called "Valsa para Sara" (Sarah's Waltz) though it's a 6/8 song:

https://open.spotify.com/intl-pt/track/ ... ff93854f35

And this is a 3/4 Lullaby'ish song i did more recently:



So, not the oddest signatures but a bit of a departure from 4/4.
I have a couple of things in 5/4 and 7/4 too, but its stuff i didn't develop.

[Gothi]

Very very nice. ^ Good work. when you are dealing with any meter that can be divided with three e.g. 3/4 , 6/8, it is called compound meter, while measures in numbers like 5/4 , 7/4, 11/4 are odd meters. Thus, you are in a compound meter in the example.

Kindly
Gothi

[mcatalao]

Very very nice. ^ Good work. when you are dealing with any meter that can be divided with three e.g. 3/4 , 6/8, it is called compound meter, while measures in numbers like 5/4 , 7/4, 11/4 are odd meters. Thus, you are in a compound meter in the example.

Kindly
Gothi

Yeah, i know. I by oddest i meant in the coloquial meaning and not necessarily the theorethical.
(oh and I'm portuguese, we don't call odd signatures we call them "Complex" or "Irregular", so sorry for that)

Nonetheless, thank's, glad you liked it!

[bossa]

I actually write a lot of stuff in 6/8 and 12/8, it's not such an odd signature but I'm very driven to it.

This is a song i did when my first daugter was on her way, called "Valsa para Sara" (Sarah's Waltz) though it's a 6/8 song:

https://open.spotify.com/intl-pt/track/ ... ff93854f35

And this is a 3/4 Lullaby'ish song i did more recently:



So, not the oddest signatures but a bit of a departure from 4/4.
I have a couple of things in 5/4 and 7/4 too, but its stuff i didn't develop.

Hi MC, very nice! Good vibe!

[Gothi]

Our new tune in 5/4 belongs in this thread as well. Almost forgot.



Kindly
Gothi

[Dionysus]

Well, I can say that for native african drummers it is all about the number 12, which can be divided with both 3, 4, 2, and 6. My own teacher was rather crazy about it and told me it was the secret number of the universe + a lot of other spiritualistic stuff. But that comes with the package. You do not go native african without the woodoo, and it was worth it. I admire his patience for trying to get my spoiled little white butt in line with his cultural roots and religion.

Do you know the 1960's drummer Ginger Baker, best known as part of the band 'Cream' ? Baker was very inspired by African drumming, meshed with a jazzy, rock vibe. My impression is that Baker was very immersed in these styles, worked with African musicians such as Kofi Ganaba (Ghana) and Fela Kuti (Nigeria), and one stage building a studio in Lagos, and eventually moving to that part of the world.

I wonder how authentic Baker's playing was, compared to the traditional styles of music from the various countries on the African continent. Would love to hear your opinion, in the context of your own understanding of the styles.

[Gothi]

Do you know the 1960's drummer Ginger Baker, best known as part of the band 'Cream' ? Baker was very inspired by African drumming, meshed with a jazzy, rock vibe. My impression is that Baker was very immersed in these styles, worked with African musicians such as Kofi Ganaba (Ghana) and Fela Kuti (Nigeria), and one stage building a studio in Lagos, and eventually moving to that part of the world.

I wonder how authentic Baker's playing was, compared to the traditional styles of music from the various countries on the African continent. Would love to hear your opinion, in the context of your own understanding of the styles.

No, I did not know but it does sound exciting. If you could link some examples for me to consider, I can tell ya. Usually Jazz takes a lot more from cuban music than african, so there is more stuff in shuffled 16 than the original african 12. However, they share love for polyrhythms like 8 vs 12, 6 vs 4, but often with different base. In Cuban the 8 or 4 is often base, while it is 6 and 12 in African music.

[Dionysus]

No, I did not know but it does sound exciting. If you could link some examples for me to consider, I can tell ya.

So funny, I am just logging in to read this forum, and currently playing an album that Baker recorded in 1975.

I can't actually give you any examples of African-styled albums, since I'm more familiar with his Rock projects (Cream, Air Force, Baker Gurvitz Army). And I can't even tell you what of his material is more 'African' than others !

But here's a small selection of very different examples for you to cast an ear over, and tell me if you think he's got the African vibe - these songs may in fact not have it at all... as his back catalogue is very diverse.

#2 - 'Toad' is his most well known moment in the spotlight as a Rock drummer, as part of the groundbreaking late 1960's band Cream, with Eric Clapton & Jack Bruce)

PS: 'African Drums' sounds a bit strange to say/type, as I would presume there's some diversity between the 50+ countries of the African continent.

[Gothi]

But here's a small selection of very different examples for you to cast an ear over, and tell me if you think he's got the African vibe - these songs may in fact not have it at all... as his back catalogue is very diverse.

Well, this is more cuban than african biased. In both cases the base is 8, but the balanced shuffling, especially in the first example, gives it some native african vibe pushing the subdivision more toward 6 and 12 in contrast to 8 and 16. If you want to go deep native african, you will have to learn the secrets of the straight 12, like in this example with the music of aka pygmees. Count it in 12. During such a cycle in 12, they make subtle variations so the rhyhtm stays varied and alive. You can do that for hours until you end up in some kind of trance. I have tried to play a single tune with a rhyhtm orchestra for one and half hour, and something deep really happens to your body and mind after countless of repetitions.

Kindly
Gothi

[Dionysus]

. You can do that for hours until you end up in some kind of trance. I have tried to play a single tune with a rhyhtm orchestra for one and half hour, and something deep really happens to your body and mind after countless of repetitions.

Dear Gothi THANK YOU.

Will need to digest and understand your explanation over time soon, but as for the hypnotic experiences.. I know exactly what you mean. Have been deep in the bush a few times where percussion groups have been playing under the stars, deep into the night (with maybe some additional 'helpers' to enhance the trance-like state). Don't know if it was specifically African tradition. I have also seen/heard live performances elsewhere, and think about the emotional impact of instrumental music often.

Here's a theory I've had about the trance state of percussion, from the perspective of the listener. If we're talking about lets say 12 players, every person is going to drop in and out of the beat, often. That's not surprising to anyone who listens to old rock bands, but when it's all-drums, it creates a very elastic sense of time-travelling both backwards and forwards. I don't think the brain can quite process it, because every tone is similar. I'm sure the velocity of every strike of the skin adds to this as well. It's an infinitely variable journey that reaches a point where the listener is in a state of blissful confusion.

I think... ima take this notion, learn something about Rhythm theory (or whatever we can call it), decipher your explanation, and build a Reason instrument to follow in the spirit of this fascinating genre. Completely fraudulent of course, and will probably sound nothing like the intention.

By the way while writing this reply, I have been listening to stuff like this video below. Im particularly drawn to when these guys kick off at around 9 minutes. This seems even further beyond my theory... aren't there some polyrhythms going on between the players ? Is that another African theory ? Polyrhythms themselves can get me towards another mental space, even though I don't know what's going on. Blows me out sometimes when I know it's a single percussionist pulling out those conflicting meters in one take.

And replaying the performance a few times now, after my theory above.... well it's THERE in some parts, even with a small group. And I swear that it starts pushing towards the trance-state. As I think you know, it's not going to be too powerful by listening to a digital render instead of being there, and of course that time itself plays a factor. For me, it's been at least 45 minutes to start entering that mental space.

Again I'm speaking from the point of view as a listener, not a player.

And I won't be learning to play a pair of flutes with my nostrils either


Koffie Fuga & WALA (Ghana)

[Gothi]

Dear Gothi THANK YOU.

(....)
I think... ima take this notion, learn something about Rhythm theory (or whatever we can call it), decipher your explanation, and build a Reason instrument to follow in the spirit of this fascinating genre. Completely fraudulent of course, and will probably sound nothing like the intention.

You are welcome, mate. I have built Reason instruments for drums. I use a steady rhythm and then I make probability based ghost notes and extra hits for constant variation on many of our tunes, thus simulating the native tendency to make every measure the same, but different. On my Miko, I also have a probability plugin, and my MC909 has such a probability function too for drums, though it is hidden well in its menu.

As to polyrhythms they are used in both african and cuban music but with different base. Any polyrhythmic figure in the vids would tend toward cuban music with 2, 4 or 8 as basic rhythm and 6, 12, and 24 as counter rhythm. In african music it would be reversed. The deep drums takes the 3, 6 or 12 as base, and 4, 8 and 16 will be the counter rhythm.

[Dionysus]

Dear Gothi THANK YOU.

(....)
I think... ima take this notion, learn something about Rhythm theory (or whatever we can call it), decipher your explanation, and build a Reason instrument to follow in the spirit of this fascinating genre. Completely fraudulent of course, and will probably sound nothing like the intention.

You are welcome, mate. I have built Reason instruments for drums. I use a steady rhythm and then I make probability based ghost notes and extra hits for constant variation on many of our tunes, thus simulating the native tendency to make every measure the same, but different. On my Miko, I also have a probability plugin, and my MC909 has such a probability function too for drums, though it is hidden well in its menu.

As to polyrhythms they are used in both african and cuban music but with different base. Any polyrhythmic figure in the vids would tend toward cuban music with 2, 4 or 8 as basic rhythm and 6, 12, and 24 as counter rhythm. In african music it would be reversed. The deep drums takes the 3, 6 or 12 as base, and 4, 8 and 16 will be the counter rhythm.

Oh man, after this conversation, I went onto a 40-hour long exploration into designing an 'african-rhythm inspired' Combinator, went way off track into the fascinating interplay between these measures, starting making it too overcomplicated, then shelved the project, only to think about it again when returning to this forum.

Perhaps today I will revise, simplify and see if I can share something interesting [with stock Reason devices only] by sun-down

Or unless another pointless, shiny thing crosses my mind's path

[Gothi]

Oh man, after this conversation, I went onto a 40-hour long exploration into designing an 'african-rhythm inspired' Combinator, went way off track into the fascinating interplay between these measures, starting making it too overcomplicated, then shelved the project, only to think about it again when returning to this forum.

Perhaps today I will revise, simplify and see if I can share something interesting [with stock Reason devices only] by sun-down

Or unless another pointless, shiny thing crosses my mind's path

Glad you got inspired. Good journey into the options of Reason. Endless.

Kindly
Gothi