Commercial Refills: done over a lunchtime?

Need some fresh sounds? Want to show off your sound design skills? Here's the place!
MrFigg
Posts: 788
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 09 Nov 2018

Been thinking about this for a while but sometimes when I listen to sounds in a refill which I’ve bought I think hmmm...2 hour job? (Maybe a bit exaggerated but you maybe get my meaning). It feels like the creator has just taken a couple of sounds twiddled the knobs a bit. Saved the patch and then repeated the process. 200 twiddles later there’s a new refill. Release 10 a month.
There are awesome soundscapers out there...folk who have clearly taken a lot of time and effort to create something of quality. You know who they are so I won’t mention any names. Some of those “good developers” even give their stuff away free. I just can’t get my head around folk selling slapdash crap in which nearly every patch sounds the same.
I know nobody forces purchase on anybody but I’d like to think that people releasing a new product would have some level of quality management with the customer in mind.
So I just wondered if anyone here has any thoughts on this.

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Loque
Posts: 4244
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 09 Nov 2018

That is the reason i do not buy Refills - i cant test them. And i know, that good sound design may take time and needs to be paid and i have no problem to pay it, if it saves me hours. But if i pay and get a bunch of crap, that costs me only time to get through them, i am rather p!553d.

I sometimes think the same for RE and their patches. But on the other hand, the ppl want a RE with 400 patches and want to pay only 9 bucks.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

botnotbot
Posts: 140
Joined: 26 Oct 2017

Post 09 Nov 2018

I have to think some of this is related to timbre preferences -- another person's garbage, as they say..

I've been on a mission to go through my refills and the FSB to pull out gems and place them as favorites in the browser (we need foldable categories, but that's a broader Reason theme at the moment ;) ). It's kind of amazing to me how many sounds just don't gel with me, even when I can see clear evidence of extensive patching.

I generally never used to buy preset packs but even in professional libraries like what ships with Massive or Absynth it was always a needle in the haystack. Reason and Refills coincided with a tendency to view using presets as time-saving collaboration rather than evil cheating, but even here I'm mainly talking about my experience with the libraries that ship with the synths themselves.

tlldr - My experience is that the "hit rate" of my (admittedly limited) commercial refills is around the hit rate for presets that ship with synths.

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sonicbyte
Posts: 185
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Argentina

Post 09 Nov 2018

Props and devs should provide a demo video in the shop - and not only an audio demo where you can't tell what is from refill and what is other devices - that showcase at least ten or twenty presets of every refill. Isn't that hard to do and could lead more sales, so is a win win for everyone.

My two cents

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adfielding
Posts: 461
Joined: 19 May 2015

Post 09 Nov 2018

sonicbyte wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Props and devs should provide a demo video in the shop - and not only an audio demo where you can't tell what is from refill and what is other devices - that showcase at least ten or twenty presets of every refill. Isn't that hard to do and could lead more sales, so is a win win for everyone.

My two cents
Another common solution to this is to provide "naked" versions of demo songs so people can tell exactly which elements come from the sound-banks. When I create demo tracks I always try to make sure they sound satisfying in their "naked" form, and then add stuff if I want to... but I always provide the "naked" version for comparison.

Yet another solution is to do a break-down of what exactly goes into making a single patch, so people can see for themselves the thought process and effort that goes into making them. Also, providing a small selection of sounds for free is a good way for people to see if a ReFill or sound-bank is worth picking up.

On a slightly tangential note - I've always been of the opinion that it's impossible to truly replicate what someone else is doing through technique alone, and it's why I don't have an issue with sharing tips and tricks and stuff like that. If someone can take a look at how I'm making patches and - from that alone - go on to create patches that are more useful from a creative perspective, then I think that speaks more about the patches I'm putting out than anything else.

tanni
Posts: 75
Joined: 19 Jul 2015

Post 09 Nov 2018

yes, a lot of soundpacks, refills on the market are crap. They are full of fillers and unimportant sounds.
But there are also some sounddesigners who have made quality stuff. I have here some free !!! sounds from the old times from sounddesigners like exode and so on. These are very good sounds for Thor, Subtractor, Malstrom ...really high quality.
its a shame that such free sounds are much better than a lot of soundpackages which you can buy in the shop.

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Heigen5
Posts: 229
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Location: Lõvi-isa

Post 09 Nov 2018

When I create my Dopetank refills, I really wouldn't even bother to create em, if I wouldn't do my best to fill them with professional sounds. I've also provided lots of free sounds, so people know my work really well.
I'm not wasting time to create thousands of sounds, that almost all sound the same. But hey, the market is pretty much like dead, it's been so for years.

MrFigg
Posts: 788
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 09 Nov 2018

Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018
When I create my Dopetank refills, I really wouldn't even bother to create em, if I wouldn't do my best to fill them with professional sounds. I've also provided lots of free sounds, so people know my work really well.
I'm not wasting time to create thousands of sounds, that almost all sound the same. But hey, the market is pretty much like dead, it's been so for years.
That’s the thing. You’ve obviously got a conscience. A good trait to have :).

Edit: I thought I’d check out your refills but when I clicked on the “free” button I got directed to a “not found” page. 😂😂🙃

Edit 2: And when I clicked on the audio demo I got an error message 😂😂😂😂😂❤️❤️

Might be my browser.

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Loque
Posts: 4244
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 09 Nov 2018

Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018
When I create my Dopetank refills, I really wouldn't even bother to create em, if I wouldn't do my best to fill them with professional sounds. I've also provided lots of free sounds, so people know my work really well.
I'm not wasting time to create thousands of sounds, that almost all sound the same. But hey, the market is pretty much like dead, it's been so for years.
I saw a few discussions here about the refill market. If it is dead or not. I just can speak for myself, and i am drawn in patches and most suck and they are boring. I am always looking for good patches that fit my taste to save me time, but i realized this is the hard part for the refill/patch designer - to fit customers needs. And if they did it, i wuld never know, because i cannot test them. I am expressed myself a while ago to have a DRM system for refills and allow me to test them - other wise i just buy for "good luck, dude!" and i have the feeling that there are a few designers, that want to deliver good sounds...
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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Marco Raaphorst
Posts: 2210
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 09 Nov 2018

making great patches take a lot of time.

some software come with superb patches made with lots of love. ignore the easy ones. the cheap freaks.
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

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Heigen5
Posts: 229
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Location: Lõvi-isa

Post 09 Nov 2018

MrFigg wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018
When I create my Dopetank refills, I really wouldn't even bother to create em, if I wouldn't do my best to fill them with professional sounds. I've also provided lots of free sounds, so people know my work really well.
I'm not wasting time to create thousands of sounds, that almost all sound the same. But hey, the market is pretty much like dead, it's been so for years.
That’s the thing. You’ve obviously got a conscience. A good trait to have :).

Edit: I thought I’d check out your refills but when I clicked on the “free” button I got directed to a “not found” page. 😂😂🙃

Edit 2: And when I clicked on the audio demo I got an error message 😂😂😂😂😂❤️❤️

Might be my browser.

Here are few recent DEMO ReFills by Dopetank:

www.reflexion-x.com/downloads/Dopetank% ... ck%201.rfl
www.reflexion-x.com/downloads/Dopetank% ... Refill.rfl

Anyway, thanks for letting me know about FREE button not working and that I need to re-upload the audio demo too! The free button was my easter-egg refill, you're a first one to find it. ;) And it should work again. The refill has some patches for IVOK and Red 70 synths.

MrFigg
Posts: 788
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 09 Nov 2018

Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018
MrFigg wrote:
09 Nov 2018


That’s the thing. You’ve obviously got a conscience. A good trait to have :).

Edit: I thought I’d check out your refills but when I clicked on the “free” button I got directed to a “not found” page. 😂😂🙃

Edit 2: And when I clicked on the audio demo I got an error message 😂😂😂😂😂❤️❤️

Might be my browser.

Here are few recent DEMO ReFills by Dopetank:

www.reflexion-x.com/downloads/Dopetank% ... ck%201.rfl
www.reflexion-x.com/downloads/Dopetank% ... Refill.rfl

Anyway, thanks for letting me know about FREE button not working and that I need to re-upload the audio demo too! The free button was my easter-egg refill, you're a first one to find it. ;) And it should work again. The refill has some patches for IVOK and Red 70 synths.
Cool. I don’t have IVOK but I’ll check out the demos. Thanks and happy Easter :):):)

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Heigen5
Posts: 229
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Location: Lõvi-isa

Post 09 Nov 2018

Loque wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018
When I create my Dopetank refills, I really wouldn't even bother to create em, if I wouldn't do my best to fill them with professional sounds. I've also provided lots of free sounds, so people know my work really well.
I'm not wasting time to create thousands of sounds, that almost all sound the same. But hey, the market is pretty much like dead, it's been so for years.
I saw a few discussions here about the refill market. If it is dead or not. I just can speak for myself, and i am drawn in patches and most suck and they are boring. I am always looking for good patches that fit my taste to save me time, but i realized this is the hard part for the refill/patch designer - to fit customers needs. And if they did it, i wuld never know, because i cannot test them. I am expressed myself a while ago to have a DRM system for refills and allow me to test them - other wise i just buy for "good luck, dude!" and i have the feeling that there are a few designers, that want to deliver good sounds...
I have never created lots of "ready baked sequnences" type of sounds, but I think I will need to put together a refill, that is already programmed a bit further. I'm not sure if people would like more performance type of sounds or one shot patches. One shot patches are already covered a lot - but maybe people would like some ready to use sequences in these days?

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Loque
Posts: 4244
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 09 Nov 2018

Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Loque wrote:
09 Nov 2018


I saw a few discussions here about the refill market. If it is dead or not. I just can speak for myself, and i am drawn in patches and most suck and they are boring. I am always looking for good patches that fit my taste to save me time, but i realized this is the hard part for the refill/patch designer - to fit customers needs. And if they did it, i wuld never know, because i cannot test them. I am expressed myself a while ago to have a DRM system for refills and allow me to test them - other wise i just buy for "good luck, dude!" and i have the feeling that there are a few designers, that want to deliver good sounds...
I have never created lots of "ready baked sequnences" type of sounds, but I think I will need to put together a refill, that is already programmed a bit further. I'm not sure if people would like more performance type of sounds or one shot patches. One shot patches are already covered a lot - but maybe people would like some ready to use sequences in these days?
If you make refills, i am not the usual customer. I want sounds, that instantly make me goo "whhoooo! now i am inspired!, i want to make music!". And my taste of what makes me go this way is a bit different than the mainstream.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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Heigen5
Posts: 229
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Location: Lõvi-isa

Post 09 Nov 2018

Loque wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018


I have never created lots of "ready baked sequnences" type of sounds, but I think I will need to put together a refill, that is already programmed a bit further. I'm not sure if people would like more performance type of sounds or one shot patches. One shot patches are already covered a lot - but maybe people would like some ready to use sequences in these days?
If you make refills, i am not the usual customer. I want sounds, that instantly make me goo "whhoooo! now i am inspired!, i want to make music!". And my taste of what makes me go this way is a bit different than the mainstream.
Yes, I know what you mean there. I think people want to be wowed and start trying stuff out, when they meet an interesting sound - in soundwise, but also in modulation-wise or then it needs to perform some bling bling to get you hooked.

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Loque
Posts: 4244
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 09 Nov 2018

Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Loque wrote:
09 Nov 2018

If you make refills, i am not the usual customer. I want sounds, that instantly make me goo "whhoooo! now i am inspired!, i want to make music!". And my taste of what makes me go this way is a bit different than the mainstream.
Yes, I know what you mean there. I think people want to be wowed and start trying stuff out, when they meet an interesting sound - in soundwise, but also in modulation-wise or then it needs to perform some bling bling to get you hooked.
Yepp... That one.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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Heigen5
Posts: 229
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Location: Lõvi-isa

Post 09 Nov 2018

Loque wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Heigen5 wrote:
09 Nov 2018


Yes, I know what you mean there. I think people want to be wowed and start trying stuff out, when they meet an interesting sound - in soundwise, but also in modulation-wise or then it needs to perform some bling bling to get you hooked.
Yepp... That one.
Dopetank Sequences vol .1 on it's way. I think I need to start making some grooves, modulations, sequences etc.

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bitley
Posts: 735
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Location: sweden

Post 09 Nov 2018

TS buys a few soundbanks and blames a whole industry? Oops.

Tell you what: Please insert any product category or company name here – and there will be opinions of all sorts. Period. Apple? McDonalds? Tesla? Volvo? Microsoft? Sony?

You will find lovers and haters of all sorts.

What was the intention with the refill? Perhaps the maker of it had a specific usage or style in mind?

The Bitley story in short:

1. Got my CZ-101 in the early 80's, learned programming on that and my Juno 2 & TX81Z.

2. Early 90s: I started out making patch and sample banks for hardware gear. Factory sounds for Clavia Nord Modular. Worldwide recognized banks for Kawai K4, EPS / ASR, Casio VZ & more.

3. Late 90s: expanded views into the software world, making commercial sounds including Reason factory presets & libraries for PowerFX.

4: 10 years ago: started making my own refills. As for lunch breaks that's what I rarely had since I worked intensively during days and nights, for years, creating and recreating (hardware) sounds. Working with my own stuff I didn't have to consider deadlines and limits in other ways. I set out to make lovely sounds that will keep being inspiring forever, but of course I have my style and perhaps it won't fit each individual taste. Regardless of that they are for sure well done and using all thinkable connections, assignments and what not. ("These are basically really good shoes but only you can decide how they look & feel", so to speak)

5: will keep making sounds both for commercial hw and sw products as well as my own stuff.

Lunch breaks? Almost never have time for them ;-)

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jam-s
Posts: 479
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 09 Nov 2018

@bitley: I really don't think MrFigg is talking about your outstanding Refills, but might be hinting at the current deal of the week or something unrelated. ;)
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace.

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Zac
Posts: 1106
Joined: 19 May 2016

Post 09 Nov 2018

jam-s wrote:
09 Nov 2018
@bitley: I really don't think MrFigg is talking about your outstanding Refills, but might be hinting at the current deal of the week or something unrelated. ;)
Don't worry the clue to his response is in his name: bitley

MrFigg
Posts: 788
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 10 Nov 2018

bitley wrote:
09 Nov 2018
TS buys a few soundbanks and blames a whole industry.
Umm...I don’t know what or who TS is? Are you referring to me? I don’t think you can be if you read my first post. I mentioned that there are awesome sound developers out there but decided not to give any names as the majority of people reading here know already who they are. Furthermore, if you read other posts I’ve written in this forum then you know what I personally think of your work. It’s even been noted by a mod.
If you were not referring to me then please disregard the above.
And yeah....what / who is TS?

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bitley
Posts: 735
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Location: sweden

Post 10 Nov 2018

Sorry mr Figg, I didn't read that you were the TS, i.e. thread starter, I rather thought it was someone who rarely buys sound banks and just wanted to complain... ;-)

MrFigg
Posts: 788
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 10 Nov 2018

bitley wrote:
10 Nov 2018
Sorry mr Figg, I didn't read that you were the TS, i.e. thread starter, I rather thought it was someone who rarely buys sound banks and just wanted to complain... ;-)
What was there in my statement that made you think that man?
Currently standing at over 90 gig but, that said, even if I was someone who rarely buys soundbanks I would still say my point was valid.

darkdogstudios
Posts: 3
Joined: 19 Aug 2018

Post 10 Nov 2018

It is a rather provocative attitude, so it's hardly surprising that sound designers react a tad defensively. ;)

I don't know about others, but I have been known to spend an afternoon on one patch, rather than a whole refill!
From my experience it takes many weeks of painstaking work to create a good refill. I am proud of the Dark Dog Studios refills so far and am currently working on one for Europa. I don't think I will finish it this afternoon...

Propellerheads have a certain standard of quality control and I doubt that they would be happy selling inferior quality refills.

darkdogstudios
Posts: 3
Joined: 19 Aug 2018

Post 10 Nov 2018

sonicbyte wrote:
09 Nov 2018
Props and devs should provide a demo video in the shop - and not only an audio demo where you can't tell what is from refill and what is other devices - that showcase at least ten or twenty presets of every refill. Isn't that hard to do and could lead more sales, so is a win win for everyone.

My two cents
They do! :)

https://shop.propellerheads.com/product/mosaic/

My video is extremely rough and ready, not being familiar with the screen capture software, it was all done on the hoof displaying my hamfisted keyboard playing skills! :oops: However, it does give an idea of the 35 combis in Mosaic. There are 236 presets in total in the refill.

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