Patch leveling again

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MDTerps2015
Posts: 416
Joined: 25 Jan 2015

14 Jan 2017

Ok so i was just reading a patch leveling thread where Selig went into detail about leveling when creating patches for refills. How about those community refills you grab with five or six different patch makers that come packaged at different levels. KHS One, Reason France, or even Halloween are all good but I won't download anymore because some patches are loud and some are low and you have to start out by turning them up or way down. Is there a way to level those patches without going through each and every single one and keeping them all labelled within the specific refill they came in????? I don't want to level the volume then rename and create a new refill if you get my drift.
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FlowerSoldier
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14 Jan 2017

I've run into that problem in the past MDTerps and I'm afraid you're going to have to do it manually. I know it's a pain in the arse, but on the other hand, you can dial it in to where you want it in your mix. Like in cookbooks when it says "Season to taste"

MDTerps2015
Posts: 416
Joined: 25 Jan 2015

14 Jan 2017

FlowerSoldier wrote:I've run into that problem in the past MDTerps and I'm afraid you're going to have to do it manually. I know it's a pain in the arse, but on the other hand, you can dial it in to where you want it in your mix. Like in cookbooks when it says "Season to taste"
Lol, so i guess unless you buy the refill, you are stuck with doing all the work besides making the sound. I just wish there was a way to stick the refill into a program and the program levels the sounds to an assigned level. Well I guess I will have to do the hard way. I love some of the Reason France refills and the holiday refills but I downloaded them and the deleted them because the sounds had such a discrepancy in levels.
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Carly(Poohbear)
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14 Jan 2017

Here's a thought, for previewing the sounds use the new Sunder Amp Splitter, for the lows add some gain for the overs reduce the gain, but for real use I would dial it in manually..

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Puniho
Posts: 101
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19 Jan 2017

The patches in the factory soundbank are not consistant levels anyway!

But surely no one is that lazy that they cant be arsed to twiddle one little knob...?

MDTerps2015
Posts: 416
Joined: 25 Jan 2015

08 Apr 2017

Puniho wrote:The patches in the factory soundbank are not consistant levels anyway!

But surely no one is that lazy that they cant be arsed to twiddle one little knob...?
I will be nice and refrain from commenting.
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Exowildebeest
Posts: 1553
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08 Apr 2017

I'm afraid I have to somewhat agree with Puniho.

While I agree that overly hot or barely audible patches are annoying, the vast majority of patches I've worked with are within a reasonable volume range, where adjustments can be easily made - adjustments that are usually required for mix purposes anyway.

Secondly, volume does not equal loudness... Patches can have the same peak volume, but sound completely different in loudness.

When designing patches, I try to not exceed the -12dbfs, but aiming for exactly -12 can mean there's still a lot of room for variation in perceived loudness between patches. So when designing patches, there's a balance between aiming for -12db and aiming for equal loudness. On that note, what Marco Raaphorst recently posted regarding loudness measuring is relevant. There's many different sides to a sound's "volume" and the challenge is to make them all fit as neatly as possible. Patches are so low-level in the process that further editing the volume is expected and almost unavoidable.

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selig
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

08 Apr 2017

Puniho wrote:The patches in the factory soundbank are not consistant levels anyway!

But surely no one is that lazy that they cant be arsed to twiddle one little knob...?
As far as I know, only the new patches added from 6.0 onwards (the ones I worked on) follow this guideline. There are DEFINITELY some louder/softer patches in the FSB from the early days…

I would ask the same question to the patch developers: surely no one charging for their work is THAT lazy…what's one more knob twiddle at the end of the patch creation process?
;)
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selig
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08 Apr 2017

Exowildebeest wrote:I'm afraid I have to somewhat agree with Puniho.

While I agree that overly hot or barely audible patches are annoying, the vast majority of patches I've worked with are within a reasonable volume range, where adjustments can be easily made - adjustments that are usually required for mix purposes anyway.

Secondly, volume does not equal loudness... Patches can have the same peak volume, but sound completely different in loudness.

When designing patches, I try to not exceed the -12dbfs, but aiming for exactly -12 can mean there's still a lot of room for variation in perceived loudness between patches. So when designing patches, there's a balance between aiming for -12db and aiming for equal loudness. On that note, what Marco Raaphorst recently posted regarding loudness measuring is relevant. There's many different sides to a sound's "volume" and the challenge is to make them all fit as neatly as possible. Patches are so low-level in the process that further editing the volume is expected and almost unavoidable.
I agree - the goal with patch levels is to not try to anticipate how the patch will be used in a final mix and set it's level accordingly. It's ONLY to leave headroom so you can use the patch "out of the box" and expect it not to clip when played on it's own or combined with your other tracks (I'm surprised how many patches clip just playing on their own, sometimes just playing one note).

And the only way to accomplish that is to lower it's PEAK level - RMS/Loudness is meaningless in the context of leaving headroom!
:)
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Jmax
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09 Apr 2017

Lowering the volume on a patch takes two seconds lol.. Lets not be to fussy

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selig
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09 Apr 2017

Jmax wrote:Lowering the volume on a patch takes two seconds lol.. Lets not be to fussy
Yes, so why didn't the patch designer do it?!? Gets old after auditioning a handful of patches - new patch, lower level, new patch, lower level... [emoji12]


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Jmax
Posts: 665
Joined: 03 Apr 2015

09 Apr 2017

selig wrote:
Jmax wrote:Lowering the volume on a patch takes two seconds lol.. Lets not be to fussy
Yes, so why didn't the patch designer do it?!? Gets old after auditioning a handful of patches - new patch, lower level, new patch, lower level... [emoji12]


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I suppose, sometimes I like them loud. I agree though some are much to loud where they are practically clipping to those something could have been done. :D There are other I really have to raise up. Doesn't seem to bother me to much I can usually tell if I like it by a few notes on the keyboard and then proceed from there.

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Puniho
Posts: 101
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01 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
08 Apr 2017
Puniho wrote:The patches in the factory soundbank are not consistant levels anyway!

But surely no one is that lazy that they cant be arsed to twiddle one little knob...?
As far as I know, only the new patches added from 6.0 onwards (the ones I worked on) follow this guideline. There are DEFINITELY some louder/softer patches in the FSB from the early days…

I would ask the same question to the patch developers: surely no one charging for their work is THAT lazy…what's one more knob twiddle at the end of the patch creation process?
;)
I thought it was the other way round. That in the early days they were more strict about absolute levels and now with the advent of newer synths they are more lax about it. I know from experience that sometimes, in a Parsec patch it is nigh impossible to get the level right without the odd certain note causing clipping. I am assuming it is something to do with the spectral harmonics?

As for the other question, I suspect that patch designers like to have their patches as hot as possible, because they sound better! ;)

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