best orchestral refill ?

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joeyluck
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Softphonics wrote: Joey you need to get real, You are a fanboy. I am not. I like progression. We want the platform to evolve and get better.
If you were someone with any cred I would entertain you, but you clearly like making an idiot of yourself. 
I know things that I can't say here. 
You should try making music sometime and cut out the high and mighty act! 
I really don't get where any of this is coming from...

So, you call something a joke and when another person doesn't agree with you, that person is making an idiot of themselves?  

If I were someone with any "cred" you would entertain me? And I am the one with the high and mighty act? Quick to call me a fanboy and assume I'm not working on anything? Sheesh.

All I did was express that I like the IDT and that I feel it is a very viable option for sample library devs having looked into it and conversed extensively with IDT devs.

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Kenni
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Stay on topic please, and stop the nonsense discussion.

An argument like this between a developer and a user is not suited for a public forum, let alone a thread like this.
Kenni Andruszkow
SoundCloud

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joeyluck
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Post 23 Jun 2015

To get back on topic, I highly recommend Miroslav Gold. You can get it from esoundz for $134.10 when logged in.

Considering REs, I would take a look at the ProjectSAM Orchestral Sampler. It just received an update that includes the following fixes:

- Edited string pizzicato samples
- Fixes regarding loop points
- Fixes regarding round robin cycles
- Fixed reset state reverb knob

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Gaja
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Softphonics wrote: Joey you need to get real, You are a fanboy. I am not. I like progression. We want the platform to evolve and get better.
If you were someone with any cred I would entertain you, but you clearly like making an idiot of yourself. 
I know things that I can't say here. 
You should try making music sometime and cut out the high and mighty act! 
 

Well you certainly just made sure to never get my money... I think if anyone is making an idiot of themselves is those who piss off potential customers by insulting people. Yes this is a forum, yes potential customers read these threads and you are making certain that people dislike you as a developer. You can make the most awesome stuff, if I feel I would give my money to assholes, I'd much rather buy a nice bike for my son. But go on. Hijack threads to shamelessly advertise your products and throw a tantrum because a user is asking questions. It looks really professional.
Cheers!
Fredhoven

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Gaja
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Post 23 Jun 2015

I read the whole thing and found you to be very aggressive towards joey, who asked a question and then disagreed with your opinion. I used the word because I felt it was a way to describe the way you responded to completely normal words (which to me didn't sound like an attack at all). But I'll certainly take your advise and save money for that bike!
Cheers!
Fredhoven

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Ashpool
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Post 23 Jun 2015

It's a shame the way this thread goes. Seems like there's a lot of agression on one side.
There must be something under the surface that I don't understand. Maybe this is justified, maybe not.
However, I own some Softphonic ReFills and I really like them but I understand Gaia.
For everybody who's not invited this looks pretty "strange" because I didn't notice any attack from Joey.

Back to topic:
I do not own the Miroslav refills but I have to admit that I do not like the demo sounds on their side.
Unfortunately there are not so many Orchestral Refills left, or do I miss something?
The demo ReFill of Euphonic Strings is really good and promising. And the Hollywood Film Strings seem to be nice too.
Although I think the Hollywood Strings might be a bit limited 8-)
I have purchased Chambre when it was on pre-release sale and I do not regret it.
There are still some issues that I have with Chambre but that's maybe on my side.
Overall a nice Refill and I think the three stars in the shop are not justified.

Right now I am also looking for additional orchestral sounds and I tend to try the ProjectSAM RE.
The demo sounds are promising but due to the mixed reviews I will wait for some updates.
If the ProjectSAM RE does not fit my needs I will most likely go for Euphoric Strings.

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selig
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Softphonics wrote: Joey you need to get real, You are a fanboy. I am not. I like progression. We want the platform to evolve and get better.
If you were someone with any cred I would entertain you, but you clearly like making an idiot of yourself. 
I know things that I can't say here. 
You should try making music sometime and cut out the high and mighty act! 
 
Gaja wrote: Well you certainly just made sure to never get my money... I think if anyone is making an idiot of themselves is those who piss off potential customers by insulting people. Yes this is a forum, yes potential customers read these threads and you are making certain that people dislike you as a developer. You can make the most awesome stuff, if I feel I would give my money to assholes, I'd much rather buy a nice bike for my son. But go on. Hijack threads to shamelessly advertise your products and throw a tantrum because a user is asking questions. It looks really professional.
Softphonics wrote:


Try reading the whole thing before commenting, Fred, nobody used the word asshole only you. I think you can see that I did not hijack the thread, I just defended when being attacked. I can also tell by the private support I received that people agree!

Now get back on topic, And get that bike for your son!
First off…
No one attacked you, and even if they did any so-called "defense" will not be tolerated here. Keep it CIVIL - I don't care who "started it", the rules are the same for everyone and pretty simple IMO.

If you are "in the right" then there's no reason to "return fire" - if you believe you were attacked TAKE IT TO PM AND/OR CONTACT A MODERATOR IMMEDIATELY!

If anyone doesn't understand what this means, the mods here can be reached via PM to explain - EVERYONE: do not continue this "conversation" in this thread please! 

Carry on, and KEEP IT CIVIL PLEASE - that's all I'm asking here.
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

kitekrazy
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Ashpool wrote:It's a shame the way this thread goes. Seems like there's a lot of agression on one side.
There must be something under the surface that I don't understand. Maybe this is justified, maybe not.
However, I own some Softphonic ReFills and I really like them but I understand Gaia.
For everybody who's not invited this looks pretty "strange" because I didn't notice any attack from Joey.

Back to topic:
I do not own the Miroslav refills but I have to admit that I do not like the demo sounds on their side.
Unfortunately there are not so many Orchestral Refills left, or do I miss something?
The demo ReFill of Euphonic Strings is really good and promising. And the Hollywood Film Strings seem to be nice too.
Although I think the Hollywood Strings might be a bit limited 8-)
I have purchased Chambre when it was on pre-release sale and I do not regret it.
There are still some issues that I have with Chambre but that's maybe on my side.
Overall a nice Refill and I think the three stars in the shop are not justified.

Right now I am also looking for additional orchestral sounds and I tend to try the ProjectSAM RE.
The demo sounds are promising but due to the mixed reviews I will wait for some updates.
If the ProjectSAM RE does not fit my needs I will most likely go for Euphoric Strings.
Trying to program for the NNXT is time consuming.  It is also very limited to what can be done with it. Reason is not a DAW for serious orchestra. Something like Cubase is. 
I have Euphoric Strings and some patches sound synthy. 


kitekrazy
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Post 23 Jun 2015

darkmode wrote:+1 for Mirolsav. It's still the only real choice for full orchestral stuff in Reason at the moment and yet it still requires layering with the other ReFills mentioned above to get certain elements up to a good standard.  But reading the above posts....I have my fingers crossed for the future!
 
 I've just made the jump to Reaper and Kontakt and I am in the process of learning all of that properly. I really hope that the orchestral side of Reason steps up soon. It's still my favorite DAW and I don't want to leave it behind or just tucked away for occasional use!
Softphonics wrote:
Have you tried Chambre for strings?
 I forgot about it when there was an introductory offer.  I'll buy it someday when there is another discount.  

kitekrazy
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Softphonics wrote:
Ohh I think I remember now. Must be mixing up developers in my head. I bug all developers about using IDT. But isn't IDT capable of scripting everything possible in NNXT plus more? Not to mention it gives the user the ability to trial the RE and probably also helps garner a higher pool of ratings... I find it odd someone who is so against unfair or supposedly unjustified criticism in shop ratings would be so quick to call something that is certainly at least 4 stars, a 'joke' ;)
Softphonics wrote:


Joey get the context right, 
IDT's that are in the shop are not a Joke, The model "IDT" is a joke.

You are looking at it from a consumer point of view... Climb down off your horse for a minute..

Your comments are typical of someone who has no idea what they are talking about. It is that type of misinterpretation that will drag this whole thing down. Maybe you like being a trouble maker.

I said it before and Ill say it again.

To make an good IDT you need to build a RE and then a refill essentially.
Softphonics wrote:So the workload is huge and PH take half (50%) of all sales 
Softphonics wrote:
Softphonics wrote:whereas if you build an RE which has no samples inside PH only take 30%
Softphonics wrote:
So much more work for much less reward? Make sense? 
It is ok for bedroom coders though, And that is all we are seeing. 


+1 for Refills.  REs are a monopoly so no 3rd party vendors.

Yonatan
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Post 23 Jun 2015

It will be interesting to try out the ProjectSAM RE, but I will wait a while and see if they maybe might rethink and make it handle solo instruments as well. Who knows... 

Off-topic:
The refill-market can be had outside of Prop-shop, so it is more independent in that sense. Things on the downside is that it is not easy for a newbie to really know where to find all the different refills available to Reason, and to buy them is a little like internet dating, demos and pictures is not quite enough to know if it fits you. 

There is surely a reason why we not yet see that many rompler-instruments as RE, as it is a big investment in time and new learnings, just to get less independent on the market and also less % of the price. 
So it is logical that most successfull REs so far seem to be the many effects and clever solutions, which can not, or not easily be replicated in complex Combinators.

Although it is a great value service that Prop keep the system of RE up to date, 50% might possible keep some bigger names out of the game as yet. Its a smaller market to begin with, and on top of that, they need to put some effort getting it right, but half of the %. Maybe there are IDT and/or coding reasons that makes it not worthwhile for some companies, and maybe they will come in one by one along the road, as the RE market grows (with new users, via Discover?) and also some more refined developing tools. 



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normen
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Yonatan wrote:There is surely a reason why we not yet see that many rompler-instruments as RE, as it is a big investment in time and new learnings, just to get less independent on the market and also less % of the price.
If you make a Rompler NOT using IDT - which is perfectly possible - you won't get less % of the price - which is basically the point Softphonics was making.

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Theo.M
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Yonatan wrote:There is surely a reason why we not yet see that many rompler-instruments as RE, as it is a big investment in time and new learnings, just to get less independent on the market and also less % of the price.
normen wrote:
If you make a Rompler NOT using IDT - which is perfectly possible - you won't get less % of the price - which is basically the point Softphonics was making.
However is it possible to make them without IDT and include expansive key switching and scripting?

I am going to stick to my long time opinion about this.. the 50% ask means props shot themselves in the foot.. barely anyone has gotten in board, only themselves with A-List, Jiggery with Organs, and now Soundiron with the piano. Oops, and Project sam with their very simplified orchestral plugin. So four devs, three not including the maker.. That to me is a terrible statistic and doesn't bode well. A dev just also admitted here they wouldn't use it so as not to give 50% and i truly believe that the vast majority of devs that HAVE checked out the SDK so far, and said "nah", would be due to "not giving them 50% of my hard work". I really believe it is that simple. I think something along the lines of 20% max makes much more sense. It is a format that will help market Reason as a serious contender if used, and propellerheads need to respect the developer's intellectual property. Creating an advanced sample library is painstaking work to put it mildly.
 
On the flipside and positive side, props have proven that they will do anything to get their formats going.. with the recent price slashing and constant RE bundles and sales.. So i believe they will stick this out stubbornly for a bit longer as they always do, then cave and offer a much better incentive for sample devs to get on board - they kind of have to, they will have no choice or IDT will simply fade away.

Yonatan
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Post 23 Jun 2015

normen 

I understand that if one choose to get a refill in the prop shop, there is 30% going to Prop, if not, one gets it all.

I might be out on slipper ice now, but I can recall a distant memory that Prop took
only 30% from the RE sales. So you mean, the 50% only concerning those using the IDT?
Do you also mean there are other ways to make a RE with samples (Rompler) than using IDT? (other than Refills)
The IDT is just to make it easier for those already having a Refill?

If this is too off topic, feel free to delete after we cleared these basic things out.

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normen
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Theo.M wrote:However is it possible to make them without IDT and include expansive key switching and scripting?
Yes, you just have to actually code all that yourself. What you get with IDT (and I believe this is public info so I can say it) is Reason-internal effects and basically all features of its samplers without having to code them yourself. So instead of coding all DSP code for your filters etc. you basically just go player.setFilter(800Hz);

You'll have to decide is thats worth 20% less share - given that some developers have to sublicense(?) DSP coders it might just be - then again if all you want to do is possible in a Combinator with a Refill - there you go :)

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Theo.M
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Yonatan wrote:normen 

I understand that if one choose to get a refill in the prop shop, there is 30% going to Prop, if not, one gets it all.

I might be out on slipper ice now, but I can recall a distant memory that Prop took
only 30% from the RE sales. So you mean, the 50% only concerning those using the IDT?
Do you also mean there are other ways to make a RE with samples (Rompler) than using IDT? (other than Refills)
The IDT is just to make it easier for those already having a Refill?

If this is too off topic, feel free to delete after we cleared these basic things out.
I can answer with accuracy on this one, sorry I am not Normen but saw this and thought I would at least try.

50% commission is for IDT instruments only, correct. RE's are 30%, including sample based RE's that are not using IDT technology.

Yes you can make a rompler without IDT - GForce Retron is a perfect example.

The IDT is designed, afaik, primarily for those wishing to convert fancy kontakt libraries with scripting to reason 100% intact. I believe kontakt can be converted perfectly, and we all know the majority of the world's best libraries are in kontakt format.

Sure one could convert their refills using IDT but they could also make their own RE minus IDT version with whatever controls and samples included that they wish to.

Hope that helps.

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Theo.M
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Theo.M wrote:However is it possible to make them without IDT and include expansive key switching and scripting?
normen wrote:
Yes, you just have to actually code all that yourself. What you get with IDT (and I believe this is public info so I can say it) is Reason-internal effects and basically all features of its samplers without having to code them yourself. So instead of coding all DSP code for your filters etc. you basically just go player.setFilter(800Hz);

You'll have to decide is thats worth 20% less share - given that some developers have to sublicense(?) DSP coders it might just be - then again if all you want to do is possible in a Combinator with a Refill - there you go :)
Ok there you go, that was the last piece of the puzzle i wasn't sure of. Thank you. I don't think any of the big names will agree to 50%.. if someone thinks for example that lass will port their libraries from kontakt and give 50% to props they are, IMO, dreaming. Same with spitfire, etc.
They won't even give 30%. It's just too much cause samples are a very personal thing.

There surely has to be some reason why have not seen any of the LARGE *major* libraries in RE format yet. Not one. Project Sam doesn't count cause it's a baby version, like their entry level ableton live pack.

What props need to do is some of their own major IDT's to at least get the format really rolling. A full orchestral library for one, with keyswitching and scripting to allow smooth realistic playing via keyboard. Something to show the potential. 
Doesn't it worry anyone else that we all thought we would be covering the reason sound gap of major sample libraries/orchestra/acoustic instruments, with IDT, and it's just not happening? Am I the only one?

Yonatan
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Post 23 Jun 2015

Theo.M  I guess we are many who have waited a while for the large libraries to come, but now start to wonder what keeps them off, as it is launched as an easier way to port kontakt to IDT. I agree that probably Prop will have to go about it a little different if they have the ambition to make the platform lift a notch. If they dont come to Prop, maybe Prop have to go to some of them, or as you say, show what can be done. Start somewhere. I do think (and hope) that they might have some instruments on the way We need some more high quality complex instrument simulations (not talking about synths), which is on par with Kontakt instruments. I guess there´s some hesitation going on. Maybe because of "too narrow market". So maybe Discover and other things are ways that Prop try to broaden the market base so this turn around can eventually happen. I do not know if that is a fruitful way or not, but even if many use Reason among artists and producers, many do it beside other DAWs, with a lot of Kontakt stuff and VSTs.
So as a loner, I guess that in the long run, Prop need to perfect the Reason software even more where it is now lacking, making it irresistible for all creative producers and songwriters, and advancing so that more and more choose to go to Reason as their main DAW. Only then will the RE-market blossom. The potential is there, for sure. And if they also bring the Discover community further (not only toy collab), and keep developing SDK and also themselves making new effects and instruments, it all together can work to open up the RE market. 50% could be seen as a partnership-deal. Maybe the big names still thinks that the focus pays off better in VST and Kontakt as a broader spectrum. Smaller companies are those who benefit most with this deal as they can focus on what they love, more than just keeping everything updated to latest DAW-version. But the taks for Prop is vast and they have fewer employed compared to other companies, but they have ways of doing things that could make Reason a smaller but faster Flagship on the sea of DAWs.   

Yonatan
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Post 23 Jun 2015

I really like the demo of the ProjectSAM Orchestral Sampler RE. 
"Orchestral Sampler gives you the tools to start composing your own movie score."

Maybe they have plans to continue with more REs, but decided to start off with a "starter kit" mostly with ensembles.

Is there a limit to amount of gigabytes of samples each RE can manage?
Having individual solo instruments might have gotten too big for a single RE...

For me it is ok to have several different portions of REs as they takes up RAM.

My only concern as hobbyist now is the price, but do not know how that compare 
to other equal things. You can get the next Logic Pro X for less, but can´t compare apples with pears. 
But I do want to work in Reason...and also Tubetech would be nice!
Black is the friday that can make the winter seems warmer and brighter.


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Rice
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Post 23 Jun 2015

I just got the Chamber strings, and although I'm NO WHERE close to doing orchestra compositions like most of you, I would have to say that the strings are exceptional to my taste and for my use. I know we all have different taste and ideas when it comes to something we're passionate about, so when discussing it for the sake of comparison, the conversation can get bit heated. However, due to this discussion, I am learning quite a bit. So, in my case (and others) it's just a matter of "chewing the meat and spitting out the bones."

Yonatan
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Post 23 Jun 2015

I am also happy with ChamRe-refill. There is a sell going on this friday-sunday, so it might be something to check out for the thread starter. 
I only long for more orchestral brass and woodwinds. 

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MAL9000
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Post 24 Jun 2015

From Softphonics

Regarding Brass

In April we started the long process of multi sampling the brass instruments. 
I wont give any more details away for now, but its contents / name / artwork etc is all nearly completed for propellerhead refill testing. 
So given that our friends in Sweden get extrordinarily long summer vacations it will more than likely be a month at least until it hits the stores.
So we should see the Softphonics Brass Refill in the next month or 2. If it is as good as the Chambre Refill its a no Brainer. My fav part of the Chambre Refill is the Mutant Strings. Class. Am hoping the guys do something similar with the Brass Refill

"I'll take one 'o those s'il vous please!!"
:s0801:

(I wondRE what name they will give it? ChambRe, GrowlRe, xxxxxxRe?)

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Arsenic
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Post 24 Jun 2015

MAL9000 wrote: (I wondRE what name they will give it? ChambRe, GrowlRe, xxxxxxRe?)
"Hornre" maybe. Or (Trom)Bonre


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