ReasonTalk Community Refill Poll

Need some fresh sounds? Want to show off your sound design skills? Here's the place!
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Lunesis
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25 Feb 2015

Hi guys,

So we were in talks about a creating our first community refill based off of the theme "organic sounds" and we had a question where we wanted to get your opinion.

Should the refill include subfolders for RE's, and allow people to make whatever they want but also limit the availability of many patches, or only allow stock devices and allow everybody access to all patches? We thought that there would be more patches overall if we allowed RE's, but we wanted to see what you guys think. Are there more people with lots of RE's, or more people with just a handful? The poll will be open for 20 days and then we will decide.





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Ayello
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25 Feb 2015

if there is a lot of good patches made with stock devices , it will annoy nobody if there's good patches made with RE's too.
I mean to me it's a matter of proportion.

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JoshuaPhilgarlic
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25 Feb 2015

I think REs should be allowed, but only as the main device. So patches for Antidote, PX7 or any RE effect are okay. But please don't use your favourite compressor RE hidden in a combinator just 'cause it's - well - your favourite compressor :nono: !

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JoshuaPhilgarlic
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25 Feb 2015

JoshuaPhilgarlic wrote:I think REs should be allowed, but only as the main device. So patches for Antidote, PX7 or any RE effect are okay. But please don't use your favourite compressor RE hidden in a combinator just 'cause it's - well - your favourite compressor :nono: !
91% wrote:
This made me think...would Pulsar be allowed if the majority voted no RE's?  Everybody got that for free right?!   :D

Edit: and Synchronous!!  

Eh...I change my vote to Yes on the RE's.   :s0959:
Good question! We should start a poll for that :D !

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zeebot
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25 Feb 2015

I'd go for the inclusion of REs as individual patches too. Including them would give a much wider appeal. Personally I pretty much use only REs these days with a few exceptions.
I dont think it excludes anybody, people buy new REs all the time, if there is a parsec folder made up of patches and combinators featuring parsec (+ stock devices) for example its always there if someone buys parsec to use..same with any RE.
Of course there will be an FSB folder too for those who want to stick to stock..anyway, thats my thoughts.
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joeyluck
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26 Feb 2015

I don't think including REs in a ReFill made by a large community would be a good idea because that means it could be comprised of hundreds of devices many users don't own.  Organizing it would be a headache. And opening patch after patch that says you don't own a RE is frustrating.

Would you limit combinators to one RE? For instance, what would you do if someone includes two REs...three REs in a patch?  Where does it go? It would be hard to organize unless you rule out Combinators when making RE patches or require that you can only use one RE in a Combinator. But who wants to browse blindly a folder for combinators containing REs?

What if your synth bass patch has a Softube FET? Does it go in the 'Softube FET' folder? It would make more sense for it to be in a 'synth bass' folder, right? But I sure wouldn't want to come across it while browsing if I don't have the FET...

Do you see where I'm going? Why not instead of just genres of patches, target ReFills for specific devices? Wouldn't that be easier?
Then you could have a Thor ReFill, a Malstrom ReFill, a Reason Device ReFill, or a Parsec ReFill, or an Echobode ReFill.

Or just have the same initiative for your genre of patches and break it into separate ReFills just like that. I for one lean towards using and buying device specific ReFills. I stray away from Combinator heavy ReFills. 


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snowcat
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26 Feb 2015

Like others, I would enjoy a "Stock" folder and a "Stock + 1" folder (sub-folders labeled Stock+Parsec, Stock+Antidote, etc).......seems quick and painless.  You never know....some Viking folks or some Snakebite folks might have fun throwing their hats into the ring.
Invent the life you want to live.

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JiggeryPokery
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26 Feb 2015

@Joey: I've never had an issue with opening a patch that contains REs, as the RE devices are noted in the Combi patch names. If I don't have the RE listed, I don't open the patch!


The downside of using Stock only is that stuff has been done to death. There have been no new synth instruments in Reason since 2007, and no new stock devices since 2012 (Reason 6). What we would end up with is more predictable combinations of Malstrom/EQ/TheEcho/RV7000/Maximiser etc etc, of which there are thousands of patches knocking around already.

There's already lots of great ReFills, free and commercial, using that stuff. Why not experiment and share with RE's as well?

I saw screw it, let rip with your creativity. Why use entire an entire Malstrom just for a single LFO when you could use an ultra compact 100LA that has more waveforms, adjustable two-mode dual lag and a much wider Hz range? Why would you use the dreadful CF-101 when one has the glorious Chenille? Why only allow the staid and boring Matrix when you could use the brilliantly bonkers Euclid or classy and colourful Korde? Why run your synth through Alligator for glitchy patterns, when you could use, well, Glitch, or radioactivate it with Neutron, and then reverse it with Titus? Sure, I think we'd have to limit it to no more than 3 different REs in one patch, but I think it could be a lot of fun.

I, for one, would be really curious to see what people could freed do from the limitations of using Thor for bloody CV everything, and making use of the wealth of useful or bizarre but dedicated CV tools now available.

So I vote for being adventurous, visit the wild west!



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pushedbutton
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26 Feb 2015

I wouldn't have a use for a refill that wasn't stock.
I don't have time to patch things up to make them work. I work in a sort of semi-live fashion so stopping for 10 minutes to bypass or emulate a Rack extension isn't possible.
We don't have any money to spend on Rack Extensions at all.
I can't complete a track within the 30 day timeframe because I spend one day a week with the participants.
If this a Community Refill it should accommodate most of the community without pressuring them to spend more.
Let the Re developers come up with patches to help promote their wares, if this is a community project it shouldn't be used to benefit one group of people (developers) disproportionately.
By all means work on Re refills, but don't make that the focus of a community project because that just shrinks the community down to those that can afford to be involved.
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Emian
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26 Feb 2015


i voted RE's.
 
i pretty much use them more then stock devices.... & creating patches/combinators with them for the community would be an excellent cure against my writerblock :D
 
i guess with a few good rules 'bout labelling all should be clear for the end users...


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JiggeryPokery
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26 Feb 2015

pushedbutton wrote:I wouldn't have a use for a refill that wasn't stock.
I don't have time to patch things up to make them work. I work in a sort of semi-live fashion so stopping for 10 minutes to bypass or emulate a Rack extension isn't possible.
We don't have any money to spend on Rack Extensions at all.
I can't complete a track within the 30 day timeframe because I spend one day a week with the participants.
If this a Community Refill it should accommodate most of the community without pressuring them to spend more.
Let the Re developers come up with patches to help promote their wares, if this is a community project it shouldn't be used to benefit one group of people (developers) disproportionately.
By all means work on Re refills, but don't make that the focus of a community project because that just shrinks the community down to those that can afford to be involved.
The poll is whether to include RE patches, not to make a ReFill that only uses RE-based Combinator.

You can just use the patches that use just stock devices! And in any event, it's likely you do have all the free RE's at least, so why not use them?

And with respect, PB, who's this "we", exactly? You saying the entire community can't afford any Rack Extensions? Or are you seriously saying that users who do have Rack Extensions are not a valid part of the community and don't deserve to make use of their patches and share them with everyone else, and that those who can create using only stock devices are somehow better than everyone else?

If it's a community project, people should be allowed to create freely. For years people have complained about "the Reason sound", just using stock patches. PH finally open the rack up, and no-one wants to actually use them publicly, for fear that only one other person could make use of it. Well, so what? It's art, it's the potential uniqueness that actually might be inspiring and liberating.

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joeyluck
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26 Feb 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:If it's a community project, people should be allowed to create freely. For years people have complained about "the Reason sound", just using stock patches. PH finally open the rack up, and no-one wants to actually use them publicly, for fear that only one other person could make use of it. Well, so what? It's art, it's the potential uniqueness that actually might be inspiring and liberating.
That's not what I'm saying. I like the idea of making several ReFills. A whole ReFill dedicated to a particular RE.  

I for one don't use combinators found in ReFills. I seek device specific patches. That's just me though.

I feel that Combinators often hinder folks' abilities to program quality patches. Often just soaked in effects, the root patch often being unimaginative. This is why I'm a big fan of Navi's recent ReFills for PX7 and Mono/Poly.

If I make Combinators for this community ReFill, and I submit 50 patches, all of them will have Echobode—because that's how I work. I use it for just about everything. But, I'd rather just have an Echobode community ReFill on the side as I find that more useful. A conglomerate ReFill will likely be set aside and many patches overlooked by many.

I like Combinator patches in ReFills as examples, but not as the meat of the ReFills.  Just my opinion of course.

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Ecopro
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26 Feb 2015

So let it be a balance between stock and Re devices. Those who don't want Res, simply don't have to open those patches or combis. If the ReFill turns out to be massively huge, then there should be enough for both camps to be satisfied. 
Guts Electronic Mayhem

   


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Tincture
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26 Feb 2015

I agree with Ed.

For me, I'd certainly be more inspired to contribute if I could use REs. I like the organic sounds title very much, I think there's plenty of room for inspiration there and hopefully will be a very useable ReFill.

Off the top of my head, I'd contribute the big evolving Pad from "The Transition" at the very least.

I also agree with Peter that Malstrom will probably be a big contributor here... for me it'd be great to hear some of its sounds paired up with and mangled by REs :)

Also, there's always the option to record to audio or REX if things get RE intensive, which the latter might be interesting for  this kind of ReFill ?

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pushedbutton
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26 Feb 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:
And with respect, PB, who's this "we", exactly? You saying the entire community can't afford any Rack Extensions? Or are you seriously saying that users who do have Rack Extensions are not a valid part of the community and don't deserve to make use of their patches and share them with everyone else, and that those who can create using only stock devices are somehow better than everyone else?
I am saying 'we' as in the organisation that pays my wages and me, who is also poor because of the organisation that pays my wages.
I always assumed being part of a community included catering for the lowest common denominator. Re's are nice for those that can afford it but for a community refill to serve it's purpose it should cater for the vast majority of the members of the community, not just the elite members. Maybe I'm just too much of a socialist to see your point of view but for this to come under the community banner it should be there to help the little guy, not exclude them.
I'm not saying don't use Re's for other projects or work on them in the future, but for a first attempt at showcasing how well this forum can work together, excluding anyone would be a mistake.
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Using Reason since version 3 and still never finished a song.

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frog974new
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26 Feb 2015

i vote only stuck device
i prefer for the Re , some more focus refill like as the redominator community refill or Quad Refill 
in that way user know how to browse and where to find specific patch made with one Re or stock devices

imagine a Refill we can allow all Re with sub folder for each one Oo
may be 3 or 5 patchs for this Comp Re , may be an other sub folder with 10 patchs made this Re effects

finaly , may be more patch with all re patchs but don't forget to make this next refill easy to use ( explore , browse /find patchs ) , to archive this refill with our collection ..

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Tincture
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26 Feb 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:
And with respect, PB, who's this "we", exactly? You saying the entire community can't afford any Rack Extensions? Or are you seriously saying that users who do have Rack Extensions are not a valid part of the community and don't deserve to make use of their patches and share them with everyone else, and that those who can create using only stock devices are somehow better than everyone else?
pushedbutton wrote:
I am saying 'we' as in the organisation that pays my wages and me, who is also poor because of the organisation that pays my wages.
I always assumed being part of a community included catering for the lowest common denominator. Re's are nice for those that can afford it but for a community refill to serve it's purpose it should cater for the vast majority of the members of the community, not just the elite members. Maybe I'm just too much of a socialist to see your point of view but for this to come under the community banner it should be there to help the little guy, not exclude them.
I'm not saying don't use Re's for other projects or work on them in the future, but for a first attempt at showcasing how well this forum can work together, excluding anyone would be a mistake.
I agree with your sentiments that the Refill should cater for everyone and that having a bunch of REs shouldn't be a pre-requisite for having access.

I also think it'd be a shame for those with REs not to be catered for as well, in terms of making a contribution and in terms of usage.

Hopefully a balance can be struck where everyone gets some usage and feels that there's some quality content they can use. Like I said previously perhaps some use of REX/Audio/Sampling could be made if REs get too messy for some patches?

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jfrichards
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26 Feb 2015

JiggeryPokery wrote:...The downside of using Stock only is that stuff has been done to death. There have been no new synth instruments in Reason since 2007, and no new stock devices since 2012 (Reason 6). What we would end up with is more predictable combinations of Malstrom/EQ/TheEcho/RV7000/Maximiser etc etc, of which there are thousands of patches knocking around already.
...
I, for one, would be really curious to see what people could freed do from the limitations of using Thor for bloody CV everything, and making use of the wealth of useful or bizarre but dedicated CV tools now available.  So I vote for being adventurous, visit the wild west!
I disagree strongly with your first point Matt, and strongly agree with your second point.

I think the use and interbreeding of stock devices has a long way to go before they have been exhausted.  Every time someone posts a new synth in the VST world, I am aware that the sounds can be done in Reason, and in most cases deeper and cooler.  As an experiment, I loaded a combinator with a 6:2 mixer, then added a Thor, NN-XT, ID8, Malstrom, Subtractor, and NN-19, which auto routed to the 6 channels.  I panned the six channels for equal spread in the stereo field, then changed the patch in each device to some sort of orchestral strings.  When I hit one note on my keyboard, I was blown away by the beauty, depth, and natural modulations of the sound.  This was done in about 45 seconds!  Then I put four Thors set on mono with analog sources into a combinator and slightly varied each one's filtering and envelope. When I hit one note, it took me right back to 1972 when my band got its Moog.  The richness of the modern synths in VST-land can fool people because the companies have spent days on each patch.  And people are complaining that stock Reason has fallen behind.  I don't buy it.  It's a matter of sound design, and I think there is tons of room for a set of new stock designs.

As to designing sounds using all the new cool Rack Extensions and CV modulators, I would say that this also has a very long way to go, at least one Parsec (19 trillion miles).  And a lot of them provide major shortcuts to get where a stock design would require a Rob Anselmi monster.  I love my carefully chosen small selection of Rack Extensions (my only two non-stock synths are Parsec and Revival).

Maybe two folders within the refill: Stock, and Rack Extensions?  I'm sure people can make outstanding organic sounds both ways.  Personally, I need a deeper explanation of what "organic" means to forum members.  No evidence of metal in the sound?  Mimicking or starting from animal or mother nature sounds?  Emotionally evocative?

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Shokstar
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27 Feb 2015

what should I do, I have a lot of RE´s in my rack and I´d like to use them for making patches. The Reason users has 10-40 RE´s that´s not much. I have 162 RE´s 

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pushedbutton
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27 Feb 2015

How about this for a challenge that would keep everyone happy....?
Make a stock patch for the community refill then make the Re enhanced version.
This would give an equal number of patches to both refills, people would have the challenge of reverse engineering Re's to the best of their ability with stock stuff but also have the opportunity show how the Re gets better, or simpler results.
So I propose 'The Cheapskate challenge', each patch has two versions, the Easy way and the Cheap way.
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Shokstar
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27 Feb 2015

pushedbutton wrote:Make a stock patch for the community refill then make the Re enhanced version.
91% wrote:
I think that would dampen the creative process and turn it into more like work.
Shokstar wrote:95% in a music-forum talking about sound, but than you listen to their sound.......yes it´s far away from awesome! :s0959: :s0106:
91% wrote:
I'll be listening for you to rocks my socks off...or uh...rap my socks off?

:s0225:
would be a nice experiment...we can do this in a live video stream :P  

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