Old Style Tape Flanging. (JPs Titus Req)

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Ostermilk
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Joined: 15 Jan 2015

29 Jan 2015

I've tried several methods of trying to get close to that vintage 'Itchycoo Park' type spaced out flanging effect using standard Rack devices in the past, I got close to what I wanted but I was never fully satisfied.

The original method needed two identical signals with delay being introduced to one of the signals by means of actually slowing down one of them by applying friction to the edge of the physical tape reel, and in some cases later on by use of a fine motor speed control on the tape machine where fitted.

The relative delay on one of the two signals causes the characteristic comb filtering and works best when varied slightly befoe and after the point where the signals are perfectly aligned. (Through zero flanging).

Now with Jiggery Pokery's excellent BBD delay emulations it's easy to simulate the setup with many of the characteristics of the orignal technique and their ability to apply an LFO to the delay time makes the automation of the 'swirl' amount a cinch.  Note that there is a 3ms static delay to the fully wet signal in order that the LFO can move the 2nd delay through zero so some latency is expected when fully wet but we don't care about that stuff when we are trying to emulate the application of intentional manual braking via a tape reel... :)

Here's a very basic (proof of concept) version with two knobs to contol Dry/Wet amount and Rate and a single switch to toggle between IDL and the BBD modes of Titus.  My recommendations are to use it as an insert combi on a bus containing a sub mix of the components you want to 'flange' keeping the rate low and swirly and applying Dry/Wet to taste.  Switching to IDL from BBD will maintain fidelity at the expense of character.

Download enjoy, add to, refine and modify it however you like mess with the principles involved and see what you can come up with.

Warning: Turn your lava lamp on wear paisley shirts and put on those loon pants when using. A frilly cravat is optional.

 Titus Tape Flanger.zip    


Audio Example

http://phead.mu/s/vw4GySHb


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tiker01
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29 Jan 2015

Thanks!!
    
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MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

29 Jan 2015

I love using tape for this effect...I have yet to find a way that sounds as good in the box just like with real tape echo and phasing, but I have a feeling this is pretty rad..unfortunately I don't have that RE so I can't test it.

nice of you to share :)

Ostermilk
Posts: 1535
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

29 Jan 2015

MarkTarlton wrote:I love using tape for this effect...I have yet to find a way that sounds as good in the box just like with real tape echo and phasing, but I have a feeling this is pretty rad..unfortunately I don't have that RE so I can't test it.

nice of you to share :)
Theoretically it could be done with a pair of DDL-1's but the ms values are in whole numbers and not fine grained enough nor CV controllable.  Titus is everything DDL-1 should have become and more, well worth the money if you can spare it.

Edit: Posted audio example in OP.

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MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

29 Jan 2015

MarkTarlton wrote:I love using tape for this effect...I have yet to find a way that sounds as good in the box just like with real tape echo and phasing, but I have a feeling this is pretty rad..unfortunately I don't have that RE so I can't test it.

nice of you to share :)
Ostermilk wrote:
Theoretically it could be done with a pair of DDL-1's but the ms values are in whole numbers and not fine grained enough nor CV controllable.  Titus is everything DDL-1 should have become and more, well worth the money if you can spare it.
Ostermilk wrote:Edit: Posted audio example in OP.


I checked out the audio example...cool stuff!

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

29 Jan 2015

MarkTarlton wrote:I love using tape for this effect...I have yet to find a way that sounds as good in the box just like with real tape echo and phasing, but I have a feeling this is pretty rad..unfortunately I don't have that RE so I can't test it.

nice of you to share :)
I created a very similar effect for the FSB called "Through Zero Flanger". I has 1 ms static delay and doesn't use any REs! Don't know how it compares to this one, but judging only by the audio example they sound very similar to my ears.

Find it in the FSB here:
All Effects Patches
Modulation
Flanger/Phaser
"Through Zero Flanger"

@ Ostermilk, inverting the polarity of one delay gives more dramatic "through zero" effects - maybe you're already doing that, but you didn't mention it so I thought I'd suggest it here).
Selig Audio, LLC

Ostermilk
Posts: 1535
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

29 Jan 2015

MarkTarlton wrote:I love using tape for this effect...I have yet to find a way that sounds as good in the box just like with real tape echo and phasing, but I have a feeling this is pretty rad..unfortunately I don't have that RE so I can't test it.

nice of you to share :)
selig wrote:
I created a very similar effect for the FSB called "Through Zero Flanger". I has 1 ms static delay and doesn't use any REs! Don't know how it compares to this one, but judging only by the audio example they sound very similar to my ears.

Find it in the FSB here:
All Effects Patches
Modulation
Flanger/Phaser
"Through Zero Flanger"

@ Ostermilk, inverting the polarity of one delay gives more dramatic "through zero" effects - maybe you're already doing that, but you didn't mention it so I thought I'd suggest it here).
Yes I've used your FSB patch before but I particularly like the soft degradation of the signal the BBD emulation provides.  For this example I'm not using polarity inversion but with Titus you can dial it in by turning the Level knob to the left for a phase inverted HP filtered signal.  When I used to do it with tape though there was no polarity flipping involved (I never had the appetite for modding my tape deck to provide it) it was just down to the relative time differences to cause the comb filtering.

Like I've said all I've done here is to provide the outline of the concept using the refinement available in Titus for facilitating the relative delays.  Using particularly the Level control as described and changing the relative initial delay times on Titus though will provide all manner of variations on the effect and rather than using an LFO the delay times can be smoothly adjusted via automation for even more flexibility.  My motivation here though was just to demonstrate the principles behind the effect and highlight some of Titus' coolness so that anyone interested could build their own specific functionality as there are many ways to skin this particular cat and many are far better in building patches than I am.

By all means though put together a further refined and feature complete vesion for us all to enjoy but the basis of this setup is working for me better than anything I've tried so far in the rack or managed to put together myself to date.  Also with this effect there's always somewhat hit and miss program dependency as to whether it will sound good or not.

But yes your patch is excellent in providing a full featured combi and has a great range of adjustments for those that want mess with this kind of effect just using stock devices.

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MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

29 Jan 2015

selig wrote:I created a very similar effect for the FSB called "Through Zero Flanger". I has 1 ms static delay and doesn't use any REs! Don't know how it compares to this one, but judging only by the audio example they sound very similar to my ears.

Find it in the FSB here:
All Effects Patches
Modulation
Flanger/Phaser
"Through Zero Flanger"

@ Ostermilk, inverting the polarity of one delay gives more dramatic "through zero" effects - maybe you're already doing that, but you didn't mention it so I thought I'd suggest it here).
thanks for the heads up selig! I'll check it out in a little bit after rehearsal :)

Ostermilk
Posts: 1535
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

30 Jan 2015

selig wrote:
@ Ostermilk, inverting the polarity of one delay gives more dramatic "through zero" effects - maybe you're already doing that, but you didn't mention it so I thought I'd suggest it here).
Having re-appraised your FSB patch and doing some experimentation with the polarity inversion on one of the delays, I found that yes the effect is more dramatic away from the alignment point but of course near that point there is a marked drop in volume through to an obvious null when both signals align.

This isn't a characteristic of the orignal and often heard effect that I was interested in recreating, as the real spaced out vibe of it comes as a result of being able to hear it moving into focus and back away again.

So while the polarity flip produces yet another interesting effect in itself it doesn't reflect the sound I'd normally associate with this classic technique, which to me was always a case of using the same signal, same polarity, with one signal being delayed in relation to the other through the point of alignment of both signals.

That is probably the main reason I didn't mention it, it wouldn't have occured to me given the expected near nulling at the point of greatest interest.  Fortunately though your patch uses stock Reason devices and has the polarity switch as an option and with it turned of is a great example of the same technique and a lot of adjustment that wouldn't have been available to those engineers trusting to luck finding the right pressure to slow each reel down with their tape machines.

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

30 Jan 2015

selig wrote:
@ Ostermilk, inverting the polarity of one delay gives more dramatic "through zero" effects - maybe you're already doing that, but you didn't mention it so I thought I'd suggest it here).
Ostermilk wrote:
Having re-appraised your FSB patch and doing some experimentation with the polarity inversion on one of the delays, I found that yes the effect is more dramatic away from the alignment point but of course near that point there is a marked drop in volume through to an obvious null when both signals align.

This isn't a characteristic of the orignal and often heard effect that I was interested in recreating, as the real spaced out vibe of it comes as a result of being able to hear it moving into focus and back away again.

So while the polarity flip produces yet another interesting effect in itself it doesn't reflect the sound I'd normally associate with this classic technique, which to me was always a case of using the same signal, same polarity, with one signal being delayed in relation to the other through the point of alignment of both signals.

That is probably the main reason I didn't mention it, it wouldn't have occured to me given the expected near nulling at the point of greatest interest.  Fortunately though your patch uses stock Reason devices and has the polarity switch as an option and with it turned of is a great example of the same technique and a lot of adjustment that wouldn't have been available to those engineers trusting to luck finding the right pressure to slow each reel down with their tape machines.
Fair points, I just remember loving it when it when I heard a flanger effect that nulled a bit as it crossed zero - probably not an effect you want to use all the time or full strength, and that's why there's a polarity switch. But I do remember trying the polarity trick somewhere back in the 70s (can't remember where I first heard of it) when I first got my hands on two tape machines, so it's not anything new by any means! And since I've always associated it with the effect, I simply had to include it in the preset. ;)


Selig Audio, LLC

Ostermilk
Posts: 1535
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

30 Jan 2015

selig wrote:
@ Ostermilk, inverting the polarity of one delay gives more dramatic "through zero" effects - maybe you're already doing that, but you didn't mention it so I thought I'd suggest it here).
Ostermilk wrote:
Having re-appraised your FSB patch and doing some experimentation with the polarity inversion on one of the delays, I found that yes the effect is more dramatic away from the alignment point but of course near that point there is a marked drop in volume through to an obvious null when both signals align.

This isn't a characteristic of the orignal and often heard effect that I was interested in recreating, as the real spaced out vibe of it comes as a result of being able to hear it moving into focus and back away again.

So while the polarity flip produces yet another interesting effect in itself it doesn't reflect the sound I'd normally associate with this classic technique, which to me was always a case of using the same signal, same polarity, with one signal being delayed in relation to the other through the point of alignment of both signals.

That is probably the main reason I didn't mention it, it wouldn't have occured to me given the expected near nulling at the point of greatest interest.  Fortunately though your patch uses stock Reason devices and has the polarity switch as an option and with it turned of is a great example of the same technique and a lot of adjustment that wouldn't have been available to those engineers trusting to luck finding the right pressure to slow each reel down with their tape machines.
selig wrote:
Fair points, I just remember loving it when it when I heard a flanger effect that nulled a bit as it crossed zero - probably not an effect you want to use all the time or full strength, and that's why there's a polarity switch. But I do remember trying the polarity trick somewhere back in the 70s (can't remember where I first heard of it) when I first got my hands on two tape machines, so it's not anything new by any means! And since I've always associated it with the effect, I simply had to include it in the preset. ;)

I love the Thor Kung Fu going on in that patch.  That stuff just blows me away.  I might just have to modify that patch with the Titus' instead just for my own evil ends...

mwahhaahaaahh!!!

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