Zero Hybrid - different sound behavior in R11 vs R12 ?

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ab459
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Post 14 Dec 2023

Hi folks
Found strange thing with Zero Hybrid, when used in R12.

Initially, it seemed to me that sound of default preset "Alpha Trance AZ" (my fav preset in this synth lol), a bit differ in R12 that in R11 (in R11 like better, with more pronounced body, although it was very tiny difference, almost at self-hypnosis level, so I thought like got paranoia).
But later, i observed really difference.

For reproduce: load synth (with default "Alpha Trance AZ" preset), and try play for example between 3th and 4 octaves (i used by mouse at On-screen Reason keyboard).
Then make "reset device", and play this.
Then load "Alpha Trance AZ" again, and play between the same octaves.
Perhaps you will need to do this switch couple times, but you should catch that sound of this preset will change very noticeable. Instead tight body, it become sounds "phasey" and differently (sometimes more thin).
At the same time, occurs like some reconfiguration in real time during playing under the hood of Zero H.
This is R12 (And the same if use Zero in RRP from R12).

Then i did the same test in R11, couple times - but was not able to catch this issue - preset sounds always nice and stable, as it should be.
I did check audio settings in both Reason versions - all the same (and all checkbox by default).

Frankly to say i'm in some confusion a bit. Please confirm if this is not just for me (who have both versions and Zero H).

Another good example for reproduce this is do the same with preset "Sawy Pluck EX". (Actually i believe this can catch with any preset, but did not check yet, maybe you will observe more).

My specs: Win10, R11 latest, R12 latest (12.7d3)

ADDED: I could assume that this is sometin like phase reconfig of the envelopes/voices after switching the preset. This can see sometimes in some synths. But why then is there no such thing in R11?

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selig
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Post 14 Dec 2023

In the audio prefs, check to see you are using the “Render audio using audio card buffer size setting” option.
This is the only option I’m aware of that can affect plugin performance in Reason 12 vs earlier versions.
Selig Audio, LLC

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Loque
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Post 14 Dec 2023

Also Check, that you pay with the sale velocity settings. It is better to test with a song for instead of paying.

And as your said, phase changes (of different sources) can have an impact to the sound.

Also check, that your have exactly the same audio settings. As Selig said, this studio card buffer rendering is essential to get closer to R11 sound.
Reason12, Win10

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buddard
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Post 15 Dec 2023

A slight difference between R11 and R12 is that R12 now sends an audio reset (and all notes off) to devices when you switch presets, to ensure that you get rid of long tails and suff like that.

Earlier, there was no 100% reliable way for RE developers to detect when Reason switched presets, we could only guess it based on the number of property updates etc. An audio reset is much more obvious since it forces you to stop producing audio -- It's for instance always sent out right before you start bouncing audio (also in earlier versions of Reason).

While the only requirement on a device receiving the audio reset request is that it should stop all audio, it's possible that some devices do additional stuff like resetting the phases of LFOs and oscillators -- That could account for the difference here, perhaps?

ab459
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Post 15 Dec 2023

Ok guys thanks for info, will test better.
If dig something new will post.
Well, it was rather to make FYI, than critical yet.
+ hope this nuance will not become tendency for unpredictable sounding for other RE synths during switch presets.

Among other, need say, that i rather liked some "ghost" timbres\"springy" notes that able to catch in ZeroH (perhaps you know what i mean, if you use this synth), and this is relate to using Zero in R11 too. But this "ghost" behavior not had relation to changed of sound of whole preset.

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FLVZ
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Post 15 Dec 2023

ab459 wrote:
15 Dec 2023
Ok guys thanks for info, will test better.
If dig something new will post.
Well, it was rather to make FYI, than critical yet.
+ hope this nuance will not become tendency for unpredictable sounding for other RE synths during switch presets.

Among other, need say, that i rather liked some "ghost" timbres\"springy" notes that able to catch in ZeroH (perhaps you know what i mean, if you use this synth), and this is relate to using Zero in R11 too. But this "ghost" behavior not had relation to changed of sound of whole preset.
You can still access your R11 if you want to take advantage of that behaviour. Well at least I assume so, historically we've been able to have multiple versions of Reason installed at the same time, not sure if its still possible with the way authorisation has changed, come to think about it now...

ab459
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Post 15 Dec 2023

FLVZ wrote:
15 Dec 2023
ab459 wrote:
15 Dec 2023
Ok guys thanks for info, will test better.
If dig something new will post.
Well, it was rather to make FYI, than critical yet.
+ hope this nuance will not become tendency for unpredictable sounding for other RE synths during switch presets.

Among other, need say, that i rather liked some "ghost" timbres\"springy" notes that able to catch in ZeroH (perhaps you know what i mean, if you use this synth), and this is relate to using Zero in R11 too. But this "ghost" behavior not had relation to changed of sound of whole preset.
You can still access your R11 if you want to take advantage of that behaviour. Well at least I assume so, historically we've been able to have multiple versions of Reason installed at the same time, not sure if its still possible with the way authorisation has changed, come to think about it now...
Yes 11 and 12 installed for me in parallel, and works ok (and i hope will be, in near future).
And interesting "ghost notes" ZH` behavior can catch in both versions.
Whereas upper described undesirable behavior (with preset switching) i can reproduce in 12 only. (And RRP i can use from v12 only, since it's not able to works parallel)

If there is some change in operation of Reason engine (as Buddard wrote about) that affects the appearance of this behavior, then of course, ideally, it would be nice to have an optional switch in settings to old mode. But these are just thoughts out loud. Need to explore this phenomena better. Perhaps it's not so important.
selig wrote:
14 Dec 2023
In the audio prefs, check to see you are using the “Render audio using audio card buffer size setting” option.
This is the only option I’m aware of that can affect plugin performance in Reason 12 vs earlier versions.
I did check - this enabled in both versions (as i already wrote, as by default).

ab459
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Post 15 Dec 2023

Loque wrote:
14 Dec 2023
Also Check, that you pay with the sale velocity settings. It is better to test with a song for instead of paying.
But this is not should be relevant in case if i play via on-screen keyboard in both versions, right. (Unless if on-screen keyboard behavior has changed in R12).
And i did check settings of it - in both the same, by default (vel 98, variations - none)

ab459
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Post 15 Dec 2023

However, would good to know, if some else user could reproduce this difference behavior.
I hope, that fact that i see only suggestions why it could occurs, not mean that this is behavior only at my config.
Please let me know if you was able too.
Last edited by ab459 on 15 Dec 2023, edited 1 time in total.

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Loque
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Post 15 Dec 2023

ab459 wrote:
15 Dec 2023
Loque wrote:
14 Dec 2023
Also Check, that you pay with the sale velocity settings. It is better to test with a song for instead of paying.
But this is not should be relevant in case if i play via on-screen keyboard in both versions, right. (Unless if on-screen keyboard behavior has changed in R12).
And i did check settings of it - in both the same, by default (vel 98, variations - none)
You checked the right thing :thumbup:
Reason12, Win10

ab459
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Location: Minsk Belarus

Post 15 Dec 2023

Loque wrote:
15 Dec 2023
ab459 wrote:
15 Dec 2023

But this is not should be relevant in case if i play via on-screen keyboard in both versions, right. (Unless if on-screen keyboard behavior has changed in R12).
And i did check settings of it - in both the same, by default (vel 98, variations - none)
You checked the right thing :thumbup:
Yes but still the same.
Sorry Loque do you have both versions and ZeroH ? Can you try to reproduce described ? (Via -on-screen keys or midi-clip, no matter, how more convenient for you)
Very need to make sure that this is at program, not my config side.

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Loque
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Post 15 Dec 2023

ab459 wrote:
15 Dec 2023
Loque wrote:
15 Dec 2023


You checked the right thing :thumbup:
Yes but still the same.
Sorry Loque do you have both versions and ZeroH ? Can you try to reproduce described ? (Via -on-screen keys or midi-clip, no matter, how more convenient for you)
Very need to make sure that this is at program, not my config side.
Sry, i uninstalled Authorizer and R11
Reason12, Win10

ab459
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Joined: 28 Dec 2018
Location: Minsk Belarus

Post 15 Dec 2023

Loque wrote:
15 Dec 2023
ab459 wrote:
15 Dec 2023

Yes but still the same.
Sorry Loque do you have both versions and ZeroH ? Can you try to reproduce described ? (Via -on-screen keys or midi-clip, no matter, how more convenient for you)
Very need to make sure that this is at program, not my config side.
Sry, i uninstalled Authorizer and R11
Oh got it, tnx, bad.
Ok maybe someone


ab459
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Location: Minsk Belarus

Post 15 Dec 2023

joeyluck wrote:
15 Dec 2023
Maybe you can make a video to show what you are experiencing?
Yes, i had this idea. But I wanted to wait for a simple confirmation, then video could been unnecessary.
Let's wait a little else.
In meantime ill try to check something better.

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eXode
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Post 20 Dec 2023

I could reproduce this quite easily in Reason 12.

I believe this has to do with the operators and that they, for some reason, lock in phase after reset even though they are set to free running. It is likely that this is related to what buddard is mentioning, but it seems that when you reset the device the oscillator phase reset too, and when loading Alpha Trance again the oscillators are free running but in phase with each other. This might be considered a bug and it might be related to the handling of REs introduced in Reason 12.

I have sent a message to the developer but I cannot say at this point if this can/will be fixed.

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Loque
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Post 20 Dec 2023

eXode wrote:
20 Dec 2023
I could reproduce this quite easily in Reason 12.

I believe this has to do with the operators and that they, for some reason, lock in phase after reset even though they are set to free running. It is likely that this is related to what buddard is mentioning, but it seems that when you reset the device the oscillator phase reset too, and when loading Alpha Trance again the oscillators are free running but in phase with each other. This might be considered a bug and it might be related to the handling of REs introduced in Reason 12.

I have sent a message to the developer but I cannot say at this point if this can/will be fixed.
Interesting. This could be a problem on other devices if the devs do not correctly randomize the phase. This could also happen on LFOs.
Reason12, Win10

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eXode
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Post 23 Dec 2023

Here are a couple of work arounds:

• Play a couple of notes of unequal length and the operators will unsync after a while
• Delete and undelete Zero (this will randomize the operators)
• Change the setting on the operators from other than free running, and then back to free running again

ab459
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Location: Minsk Belarus

Post 23 Dec 2023

eXode wrote:
20 Dec 2023
I could reproduce this quite easily in Reason 12.

I believe this has to do with the operators and that they, for some reason, lock in phase after reset even though they are set to free running. It is likely that this is related to what buddard is mentioning, but it seems that when you reset the device the oscillator phase reset too, and when loading Alpha Trance again the oscillators are free running but in phase with each other. This might be considered a bug and it might be related to the handling of REs introduced in Reason 12.

I have sent a message to the developer but I cannot say at this point if this can/will be fixed.
Thanks for confirmation ! And for reporting. :thumbs_up:
Loque wrote:
20 Dec 2023
Interesting. This could be a problem on other devices if the devs do not correctly randomize the phase. This could also happen on LFOs.
So that what i'm afraid too.
(Theoretically, can assume that problem may not affect new devices released during R12 period, which can be like adapted to the new engine. But it just thoughts out loud)

Edit: Also can add (not sure if it important), initially described "reset device" command is not mandatory for reproduce. Behavior can reproduce by switching between any presets (and resp back to tested preset) too.

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