Can you make a living from RE/Refill business alone?

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RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

21 Mar 2021

I've been thinking about moving countries, teaming up, and getting to business. Until Covid said not now. : P

I wouldn't rely on just doing one or another thing, but creating synthesizers, effects/engineering processors, player-type tools; samplers as well as romplers (yes, refill edition, too)
Creating patches, obviously; designing sounds (drums, synths, SFX); writing complete songs then selling off every fiber of it (creating loops, midis, song construction/templates, lyrics, vocals).
Maybe occasionally taking engineering and complete production (where you do everything) work / which also can include just sound design. ~ This last part is pretty much freelancing.

Now, freelancing isn't TOO relevant, but I mentioned it, cause there you get hired and paid for what you do, once. The "do everything, and put all of it in the shop" is vulnerable to piracy. But then again, freelancing, too, is something that can make you rich, as well as starve to death. : P

Oh, haha, yeah I almost forgot about selling the finished songs. But lastly, I'd try that, too I guess.

So, what would you say? I can be kind of hyper focused and hyper active as well as hyper motivated for this type of work, I perform decently, and have some savant-like skills, not to mention uniqueness ~ but I also am willing to do what's popular/sought after. But a product is half the battle. Selling it is the other.
Or is it better to forget about it and take a different path?

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Jackjackdaw
Posts: 1400
Joined: 12 Jan 2019

21 Mar 2021

Get a job that you don't hate that pays the bills. Work your ass off in your free time bringing your unique visions to the world. If enough people get behind your vision then maybe you might find yourself able to quit your job and have your creative work sustain you for a while. Unless you are sitting on a fat trust fund or something then there is no other way that doesn't lead to poverty and destitution.

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LongFist
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Joined: 25 Jan 2021
Location: CyberSpace

21 Mar 2021

Jackjackdaw wrote:
21 Mar 2021
Get a job that you don't hate that pays the bills. Work your ass off in your free time bringing your unique visions to the world. If enough people get behind your vision then maybe you might find yourself able to quit your job and have your creative work sustain you for a while. Unless you are sitting on a fat trust fund or something then there is no other way that doesn't lead to poverty and destitution.
These are some amazing words of wisdom. Follow them and you really can't fail. (From a guy who has tried - and failed - the other way!) FWIW: I did manage to recover sufficiently to successfully raise a family, so there's that. I had to learn it the hard way. :D
:rebirth: 2.0.1 :recycle: 2.2 :reload: 1.0 :record: 1.0 :reason: 11 Suite :reason:+ ________ :arrow: Love the entire product line!

avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3932
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

23 Mar 2021

Your dilemma is one of uncertainty.

I don't think there can ever be a single answer to this. What is true for one person might not be for another.

If Steve Harvey had taken the advice applicable to most, he could easily have ended up in some dead-end job making his co-workers laugh at his bitter jokes about being poor. But what was best for him would probably lead most people to a lifetime of destitution.

If I'd stuck with my ambitions 10 years ago, by now I'd probably be making a really good living from them. But I tried to take the "safe" route. I had tried to gauge the answer to this very question several years ago and decided to pass on making REs.

It's still pretty hard to gauge. People are still releasing REs, and one person made a handsome profit with his bootleg romplers (before he got found out) ... so there's definitely money to be made.

Truth is, though, you are always balancing risk and reward, which is best explained by Ray Dalio (mentor to P. Diddy and runs the most successful hedge fund):

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Auryn
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Location: La Mancha

23 Mar 2021

Jackjackdaw wrote:
21 Mar 2021
Get a job that you don't hate that pays the bills. Work your ass off in your free time bringing your unique visions to the world. If enough people get behind your vision then maybe you might find yourself able to quit your job and have your creative work sustain you for a while. Unless you are sitting on a fat trust fund or something then there is no other way that doesn't lead to poverty and destitution.
this is good advice
~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-~-.-
Quixotic Sound Design: http://www.quixoticsounddesign.com
Europandemonium Refill: https://gumroad.com/l/YxIGB

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

02 Aug 2021

I'm a bit late by a few days ; ) but thanks everyone!

I've come to the decision that:

I don't know.

x D

Maybe I'll start in my free time, we'll see. One thing is for sure, I don't want to waste my skills.

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mcatalao
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02 Aug 2021

I'm sure the refill market is dead. I think i don't buy a refill a long time ago!

It's more or less the same for any Patch development market, unless from some ominous Synths and there are also the Big Sampler brands like NI, East West and Spitfire.

So imho, you either connect to some big brand or you have to work your ass off in 1000 other things than just building patches. So for the refill market you can sell in reason studio's store, which at this time is almost hidden in the site, giving almost no visibility for Re and Refill developers.

About the Re development, I really doubt companies that make ONLY Re's can stay afloat. For what I can see, you either have a product that you can sell multi format, or you will have to complement your income with other stuff.

Anyway, if you have an idea of a product that can be in line with the packs from Reason + (they are normally equivalent to a small refill with something between 10 and 20 patches) RS pays to Sound developers. Again, you'd have to do a lot of packs, and have approval from every of them to make a living of it. But it's some money in the pocket.

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selig
RE Developer
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

02 Aug 2021

"Or is it better to forget about it and take a different path?"

Not sure you want any of us to decide such an important question for you!!! ;)

In the mean time, absolutely nothing stopping you from doing as much of this as you can do today on your own. Build patches, Combinators, Sound Packs (seriously, contact them with a demo pack of your work), whatever you can do on your own.

I started with a ReFill Combinator instrument, the Selig B3, long before I got into RE development - it was a natural progression from patches, to a ReFill/instrument, to REs.

My Philosophy: If there is something you feel strongly compelled to be doing, you should be doing it by any means possible at whatever level is currently possible!

Start where you are, build from there.
Selig Audio, LLC

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DaveyG
Posts: 2499
Joined: 03 May 2020

03 Aug 2021

RobC wrote:
02 Aug 2021
Maybe I'll start in my free time
That's exactly what you should do. I think you can't make anything even close to a living from selling Refills. REs probably bring in a bit more but are also not going to be a living on their own unless the Reason ecosystem gets very much more popular than it is now. I presume RS are paying people for supplying R+ sound packs, and they need a continual supply of those, but there are already a significant number of the familiar names producing those packs. Maybe make one or two packs to see it it is worthwhile.

So start as a hobby and see how it goes.

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BumCuddle
Posts: 110
Joined: 26 Jul 2021

03 Aug 2021

Some excellent advice here.
Always have a fall back source of income. Even the world's most successful people spent years struggling to survive. All you need to do is go to LA and see all the failed actors who thought they could make it.
Small successive steps toward your goal is the safest.


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Biolumin3sc3nt
Posts: 662
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

03 Aug 2021

Sadly, You're more likely to make a better living working at McDonalds.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

27 Mar 2022

Yet again a bit late by a few years(?) x D - okay maybe not, still thanks everyone for the input.

I think, I will build the audio stuff as part of my life, because it's simply way too fascinating, and my brain batch me with way too many ideas to just simply drop it all.

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Seckin
Posts: 120
Joined: 09 Apr 2016

05 Apr 2022

Why just Reason? I think if you're able to create synthesizers, effects and engineering processors, you can cater to the VST market.
Check out Analog Obsession on Patreon. That's just one guy who has created, from the ground up, a wonderful business for himself.
If you can't make a hit with Malstrom, Subtractor and Redrum, you can't make a hit at all.

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

05 Apr 2022

RobC wrote:
27 Mar 2022
Yet again a bit late by a few years(?) x D - okay maybe not, still thanks everyone for the input.

I think, I will build the audio stuff as part of my life, because it's simply way too fascinating, and my brain batch me with way too many ideas to just simply drop it all.
The question that comes to my mind, is what have you accomplished on your stated goals in the past year?
Did you follow anyone's advice? How did it turn out? Have your goals changed?
What have you been doing with your time, and what do you WANT to be doing with your time (and why have you not been doing it already?). You still have a large support group here!
Selig Audio, LLC

avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3932
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

05 Apr 2022

RobC wrote:
27 Mar 2022
Yet again a bit late by a few years(?) x D - okay maybe not, still thanks everyone for the input.

I think, I will build the audio stuff as part of my life, because it's simply way too fascinating, and my brain batch me with way too many ideas to just simply drop it all.
Fail fast and often.

A monolith could work, but it's much more likely to lead to procrastination and overwhelm.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

05 Jun 2022

Seckin wrote:
05 Apr 2022
Why just Reason? I think if you're able to create synthesizers, effects and engineering processors, you can cater to the VST market.
Check out Analog Obsession on Patreon. That's just one guy who has created, from the ground up, a wonderful business for himself.
For one thing, I'm a Reason user : ) ; then Rack Extensions have an appeal to them; Reason and RE are more protected against piracy than VSTs. I'm not saying that VSTs aren't worth a shot, but piracy is quite off-putting.
That said, gaining support through Patreon and alike sounds promising, too!
selig wrote:
05 Apr 2022
The question that comes to my mind, is what have you accomplished on your stated goals in the past year?
Did you follow anyone's advice? How did it turn out? Have your goals changed?
What have you been doing with your time, and what do you WANT to be doing with your time (and why have you not been doing it already?). You still have a large support group here!
I found a programmer for starters, whom I can work together with. Then I noted down a lot of ideas/concepts, for example: I (maybe) came up with a unique synthesis; a different 3D effect; mixing/equalization method; songwriting method, etc.. I gathered funds for better tools ~ which are still portable, thus can come with me anywhere.
Now, moving countries is not a must, but definitely possible by now.
And I've been testing my ideas in experiments ~ which usually make me explode with other, even more new ideas.
A bonus possibility is creating videos for my discussions/research, and maybe a follow-up experiment video for each, to see how and why an idea does, or doesn't work. Could be fun.
(Sorry, my reply gets confusing/disorganized, cause I kind of answered some questions, before I read them.)
Of course I followed the advices ~ otherwise I would already have starved to death, leaving debts behind. x D Hell, I put on 10 kg weight, darn... > _ >
That said, meanwhile my life had a lot of downs lately, so gotta take care of those first. But I do my best to get closer to my goals whenever I can.
It looks like I will have a lot more free time (which I lacked for the usual boring, life reasons/struggles), so the plan is to finally turn those ideas into actual finished products (instead of IRL listening to everyone's cry for help near me - while almost neglecting my own life and goals... x _ x).

I haven't forgotten about this community (although I didn't see an e-mail notification about the last replies)
avasopht wrote:
05 Apr 2022
Fail fast and often.

A monolith could work, but it's much more likely to lead to procrastination and overwhelm.
Hehe, I guess I can do that!
But up next will be finding a few new tools to work with.

Jac459
Posts: 677
Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore
Contact:

05 Jun 2022

Hi RobC,

I am managing software engineers for a living since quite a long time. My teams are about 300 to 400 staffs. So with rotations I can say I may have advised about 1000+ people on their carrier.

The single best advise I have given in my opinion is :

'do what you are good for'

Période.

Said like that it is pretty rational.

In my case I love music but my taste sucks. Even my idols don't really sell lol. So I went to engineering which I do like and I am good at.

Think about what is good for you.
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

DJMaytag
Posts: 723
Joined: 17 Jun 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

05 Jun 2022

Well, if you’re making decent RE’s, I’ll definitely support your stuff. Hell, I’ve thrown some cash directly to someone for making a custom RE for me.

I might be throwing money down a bottomless pit on some RE’s, but I feel it is worth it to support people currently developing in this space (sorry, I’m not supporting old shit like Tube Tech and some of the original/earliest RE’s).

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

06 Jun 2022

Jac459 wrote:
05 Jun 2022
Hi RobC,

I am managing software engineers for a living since quite a long time. My teams are about 300 to 400 staffs. So with rotations I can say I may have advised about 1000+ people on their carrier.

The single best advise I have given in my opinion is :

'do what you are good for'

Période.

Said like that it is pretty rational.

In my case I love music but my taste sucks. Even my idols don't really sell lol. So I went to engineering which I do like and I am good at.

Think about what is good for you.
Hello!

What I am good for, will show with time.
There will be a side possibility, should the audio part not work out for some reason.
DJMaytag wrote:
05 Jun 2022
Well, if you’re making decent RE’s, I’ll definitely support your stuff. Hell, I’ve thrown some cash directly to someone for making a custom RE for me.

I might be throwing money down a bottomless pit on some RE’s, but I feel it is worth it to support people currently developing in this space (sorry, I’m not supporting old shit like Tube Tech and some of the original/earliest RE’s).
For RE's I would be designing tools that I would definitely use - things that I'm looking for, but just don't exist; and what I'm passionate about and excited for.
That said, don't spend money on something you don't need ~

DJMaytag
Posts: 723
Joined: 17 Jun 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

06 Jun 2022

RobC wrote:
06 Jun 2022
That said, don't spend money on something you don't need ~
Sometimes it’s about potential. If I’m supporting someone early on in their RE development, it’s positive feedback to encourage them to continue.

But yeah, I’m not buying things that have zero value to me. It’s gotta have some sort of usefulness. If I’m unsure, I’ll at least be throwing it in my $9/mo level subscription so the devs get something, even if it’s not a ton. If I go on to buy it later after subscribing, the dev gets that $1 or 2 from my sub, plus what they get from my later purchase.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

07 Jun 2022

DJMaytag wrote:
06 Jun 2022
Sometimes it’s about potential. If I’m supporting someone early on in their RE development, it’s positive feedback to encourage them to continue.

But yeah, I’m not buying things that have zero value to me. It’s gotta have some sort of usefulness. If I’m unsure, I’ll at least be throwing it in my $9/mo level subscription so the devs get something, even if it’s not a ton. If I go on to buy it later after subscribing, the dev gets that $1 or 2 from my sub, plus what they get from my later purchase.
That's a pretty good approach then! If only more people would be that supportive of one-other...

DJMaytag
Posts: 723
Joined: 17 Jun 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

07 Jun 2022

Well, if we don’t support the people we have now making RE’s, we won’t have ANYONE making RE’s down the road.

This doesn’t mean we should be buying all the $200 devices, unless they’re really that phenomenal, but reasonable support of the people making the $9-29 range devices that are useful to you. We don’t always need to wait until the big sales, either.

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