Sounds good straight out of the box or...?

[MrFigg]

Some REs (and VSTs) just sound great from the outset. Kind of like my Fender Hotrod Deluxe amp...just plug in a guitar and the thing plays itself. Also kind of like a tai chi sabre I bought 15 years ago...effortless movement but I digress. Been reading over the years people talking about Radical Piano, more often than not saying "It sounds great in conjunction with (fill in your chosen effects)". I bought Rad Piano on it's release back in the day...also Rad Keys and although life is too short I still regret it. Rad Piano is a stock device now and Rad Keys was replaced long ago by AAS Lounge Lizard. Both to my ears are just too thin sounding. I've never taken to them at all. Back in the day I had no plug-in experience and didn't know any better. To get to my point though...why shouldn't an RE sound great without the need to add a touch of reverb or a load of EQ or...you get the point. Sure, all effects can drastically alter any (for the most part)) sound and make it fantastic but why bother buying an instrument which "needs" extras in order to sound decent? Why even develop one let alone put it up for sale? Anyway, as I said, there's loads of great instruments which stand alone. I do not like Rad Piano or Keys and I probably won't use them ever for the sole reason that they don't sound good out of the box.

[guitfnky]

this reminds me of a conversation I once had with a friend about coffee. he hates the stuff, but his rationale is that it tastes like burnt trash if you drink it black (this is a true universal fact—don’t @ me), and he thought if it tastes that bad, why should you bother to put creamer and sugar in it to make it nice and tasty—instead, just drink something that tastes better on its own. by that logic, he shouldn’t have even been drinking all that Pepsi he loved so much.

if a guitar sounds so good, why should you need to plug it in at all? why add reverb to stuff? compression?

because they’re all just ingredients. you can make a banger out of the cheesiest, worst-sounding toy instrument, if you know your ingredients.

I do think it’s a good question when it comes to the presets though. it seems more common that an otherwise useful tool is brought down by shitty presets (maybe that’s why I hate Thor so much) than because it just “doesn’t sound good out of the box”. I felt the same about almost every Line 6 preset patch I’ve ever loaded—they all sounded terrible, but with the right settings they were perfectly usable. of course there are devices that are very difficult to get sounding good without using anything external (the new stock amps come to mind). but even those can sound good in the right hands.

[MrFigg]

this reminds me of a conversation I once had with a friend about coffee. he hates the stuff, but his rationale is that it tastes like burnt trash if you drink it black (this is a true universal fact—don’t @ me), and he thought if it tastes that bad, why should you bother to put creamer and sugar in it to make it nice and tasty—instead, just drink something that tastes better on its own. by that logic, he shouldn’t have even been drinking all that Pepsi he loved so much.

if a guitar sounds so good, why should you need to plug it in at all? why add reverb to stuff? compression?

because they’re all just ingredients. you can make a banger out of the cheesiest, worst-sounding toy instrument, if you know your ingredients.

I do think it’s a good question when it comes to the presets though. it seems more common that an otherwise useful tool is brought down by shitty presets (maybe that’s why I hate Thor so much) than because it just “doesn’t sound good out of the box”. I felt the same about almost every Line 6 preset patch I’ve ever loaded—they all sounded terrible, but with the right settings they were perfectly usable. of course there are devices that are very difficult to get sounding good without using anything external (the new stock amps come to mind). but even those can sound good in the right hands.

Well in terms of a guitar you're probably starting with a good sounding one before you even add any reverb or whatever. My point is that with many REs the starting point is thin and crap so that even with tweaking internal settings you really need to work at getting something decent out of it more often than not having to add other devices. Now I don't know your thoughts on the matter but I wouldn't buy some shit sounding guitar and think nah it's cool I've got a fuzz pedal and a flanger at home so it might end up sounding ok.

[joeyluck]

I like Radical Piano and Keys. They both sit well in a mix for me with little adjustment.

Radical Keys was maybe the only RE to receive a NAMM TEC award nomination. http://legacy.tecawards.org/tec/13nomineestech.html

That was a couple years after the RE format was introduced. Maybe after things are back to normal, Reason Studios can attend more trade shows to show stuff off.

[MrFigg]

I like Radical Piano and Keys. They both sit well in a mix for me with little adjustment.

Radical Keys was maybe the only RE to receive a NAMM TEC award nomination. http://legacy.tecawards.org/tec/13nomineestech.html

That was a couple years after the RE format was introduced. Maybe after things are back to normal, Reason Studios can attend more trade shows to show stuff off.

I don’t know, i just feel the difference between Rad Keys and Lounge Lizard is like chalk and cheese. I maybe made up my mind a long time ago and haven’t given it a chance since. I’ll download it and give it a try again. That said, it doesn’t really make a difference anyway as I have LL.

[DougalDarkly]

...with many REs the starting point is thin and crap...

One man's 'thin and crap' is another man's 'sit's in the mix' (as Joey points out) - this is all entirely subjective, after all.

Have you ever heard stems of professional rock/pop tracks? They use a whole fuck-ton of 'thin and crap' all layered together - it's a thing.

[MrFigg]

...with many REs the starting point is thin and crap...

One man's 'thin and crap' is another man's 'sit's in the mix' (as Joey points out) - this is all entirely subjective, after all.

Have you ever heard stems of professional rock/pop tracks? They use a whole ferk of 'thin and crap' all layered together - it's a thing.

I know, I know. I’m probably just speaking from the angle of loading up say a Rhodes and playing tunes on that for an hour or a nice piano and plinky plonking for a while. As individual instruments in their own right.

[guitfnky]

this reminds me of a conversation I once had with a friend about coffee. he hates the stuff, but his rationale is that it tastes like burnt trash if you drink it black (this is a true universal fact—don’t @ me), and he thought if it tastes that bad, why should you bother to put creamer and sugar in it to make it nice and tasty—instead, just drink something that tastes better on its own. by that logic, he shouldn’t have even been drinking all that Pepsi he loved so much.

if a guitar sounds so good, why should you need to plug it in at all? why add reverb to stuff? compression?

because they’re all just ingredients. you can make a banger out of the cheesiest, worst-sounding toy instrument, if you know your ingredients.

I do think it’s a good question when it comes to the presets though. it seems more common that an otherwise useful tool is brought down by shitty presets (maybe that’s why I hate Thor so much) than because it just “doesn’t sound good out of the box”. I felt the same about almost every Line 6 preset patch I’ve ever loaded—they all sounded terrible, but with the right settings they were perfectly usable. of course there are devices that are very difficult to get sounding good without using anything external (the new stock amps come to mind). but even those can sound good in the right hands.

Well in terms of a guitar you're probably starting with a good sounding one before you even add any reverb or whatever. My point is that with many REs the starting point is thin and crap so that even with tweaking internal settings you really need to work at getting something decent out of it more often than not having to add other devices. Now I don't know your thoughts on the matter but I wouldn't buy some shit sounding guitar and think nah it's cool I've got a fuzz pedal and a flanger at home so it might end up sounding ok.

the thing about guitars is that most of the tone comes from the amp and your fingers. even shitty guitars can sound really good through a decent amp. the opposite isn’t as true.

I get what you mean, and agree to a certain degree, but I still come back to the same two culprits, more often than not: poor quality presets, and stuff that requires too much wrangling to be worth it. I guess I just see there’s a nuance there in that last one. I rarely pull up Softube’s Amp for that reason, but it can still sound good, even without any other effects. is it worthwhile though, when I’ve got other options? not really. similar to your use of other keyboard/piano sounds instead of the (now) stock devices.

I haven’t had any issues getting good sounds out of those devices myself, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say my other VSTs don’t sound better. for me, the choice is more about how prominent is the instrument in the mix? if it’s just some background plinking or chords just to fill something out, there’s not as much need to use “the good stuff”, and the additional RAM/CPU hit that usually comes with it.

[visheshl]

Some REs (and VSTs) just sound great from the outset. Kind of like my Fender Hotrod Deluxe amp...just plug in a guitar and the thing plays itself. Also kind of like a tai chi sabre I bought 15 years ago...effortless movement but I digress. Been reading over the years people talking about Radical Piano, more often than not saying "It sounds great in conjunction with (fill in your chosen effects)". I bought Rad Piano on it's release back in the day...also Rad Keys and although life is too short I still regret it. Rad Piano is a stock device now and Rad Keys was replaced long ago by AAS Lounge Lizard. Both to my ears are just too thin sounding. I've never taken to them at all. Back in the day I had no plug-in experience and didn't know any better. To get to my point though...why shouldn't an RE sound great without the need to add a touch of reverb or a load of EQ or...you get the point. Sure, all effects can drastically alter any (for the most part)) sound and make it fantastic but why bother buying an instrument which "needs" extras in order to sound decent? Why even develop one let alone put it up for sale? Anyway, as I said, there's loads of great instruments which stand alone. I do not like Rad Piano or Keys and I probably won't use them ever for the sole reason that they don't sound good out of the box.

see one usecase is for example i prefer my sounds dry because i prefer adding my own reverbs and delays as send effects...i prefer that the delay of individual patches not interfere with my main delay....if theres already a delay on an instrument patch and its timed differently it might clash with the timing of my main delay...same for reverb...if i want to build a sound where all instruments sound like they're in the same ambiance....so i want to give them the same reverb treatment...but if the individual patches have their own reverb they'd clash with the main ambiance of the main reverb.
thats the main reason why i prefer patches without spacial effects....sure patches which sound great out of the box are instant likings...you get drawn to them instantly...but when in the mix their effects MIGHT clash with the whole vibe of the track...this is just one usecase

[MrFigg]

Well in terms of a guitar you're probably starting with a good sounding one before you even add any reverb or whatever. My point is that with many REs the starting point is thin and crap so that even with tweaking internal settings you really need to work at getting something decent out of it more often than not having to add other devices. Now I don't know your thoughts on the matter but I wouldn't buy some shit sounding guitar and think nah it's cool I've got a fuzz pedal and a flanger at home so it might end up sounding ok.

the thing about guitars is that most of the tone comes from the amp and your fingers. even shitty guitars can sound really good through a decent amp. the opposite isn’t as true.

I get what you mean, and agree to a certain degree, but I still come back to the same two culprits, more often than not: poor quality presets, and stuff that requires too much wrangling to be worth it. I guess I just see there’s a nuance there in that last one. I rarely pull up Softube’s Amp for that reason, but it can still sound good, even without any other effects. is it worthwhile though, when I’ve got other options? not really. similar to your use of other keyboard/piano sounds instead of the (now) stock devices.

I haven’t had any issues getting good sounds out of those devices myself, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say my other VSTs don’t sound better. for me, the choice is more about how prominent is the instrument in the mix? if it’s just some background plinking or chords just to fill something out, there’s not as much need to use “the good stuff”, and the additional RAM/CPU hit that usually comes with it.

As I said above, that's maybe where my issue lies. Instruments I'm using in Reason are just that. It's not sooooo often I'll record a song and keep it. I'm just jamming with myself and so in that respect having a Juno plugin for example is just that...A Juno. But instead of having a whole load of hardware in my studio I've got them all on a hard drive. There's not any room left in my studio anyway haha. I'll sit for hours playing my guitar through Kuassa stuff. So that's where I'm coming from. If I was recording music then sure, maybe I'd choose something which sits in the mix but I'm more into playing the instruments themselves just for the hell of it.

[visheshl]

the thing about guitars is that most of the tone comes from the amp and your fingers. even shitty guitars can sound really good through a decent amp. the opposite isn’t as true.

I get what you mean, and agree to a certain degree, but I still come back to the same two culprits, more often than not: poor quality presets, and stuff that requires too much wrangling to be worth it. I guess I just see there’s a nuance there in that last one. I rarely pull up Softube’s Amp for that reason, but it can still sound good, even without any other effects. is it worthwhile though, when I’ve got other options? not really. similar to your use of other keyboard/piano sounds instead of the (now) stock devices.

I haven’t had any issues getting good sounds out of those devices myself, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say my other VSTs don’t sound better. for me, the choice is more about how prominent is the instrument in the mix? if it’s just some background plinking or chords just to fill something out, there’s not as much need to use “the good stuff”, and the additional RAM/CPU hit that usually comes with it.

As I said above, that's maybe where my issue lies. Instruments I'm using in Reason are just that. It's not sooooo often I'll record a song and keep it. I'm just jamming with myself and so in that respect having a Juno plugin for example is just that...A Juno. But instead of having a whole load of hardware in my studio I've got them all on a hard drive. There's not any room left in my studio anyway haha. I'll sit for hours playing my guitar through Kuassa stuff. So that's where I'm coming from. If I was recording music then sure, maybe I'd choose something which sits in the mix but I'm more into playing the instruments themselves just for the hell of it.

right...so it depends on the purpose...id rather have sounds which don't have effects when im mixing, and just like you id rather have sounds that sound great from get go when im jamming and generally goofing off playing stuff

[guitfnky]

the thing about guitars is that most of the tone comes from the amp and your fingers. even shitty guitars can sound really good through a decent amp. the opposite isn’t as true.

I get what you mean, and agree to a certain degree, but I still come back to the same two culprits, more often than not: poor quality presets, and stuff that requires too much wrangling to be worth it. I guess I just see there’s a nuance there in that last one. I rarely pull up Softube’s Amp for that reason, but it can still sound good, even without any other effects. is it worthwhile though, when I’ve got other options? not really. similar to your use of other keyboard/piano sounds instead of the (now) stock devices.

I haven’t had any issues getting good sounds out of those devices myself, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say my other VSTs don’t sound better. for me, the choice is more about how prominent is the instrument in the mix? if it’s just some background plinking or chords just to fill something out, there’s not as much need to use “the good stuff”, and the additional RAM/CPU hit that usually comes with it.

As I said above, that's maybe where my issue lies. Instruments I'm using in Reason are just that. It's not sooooo often I'll record a song and keep it. I'm just jamming with myself and so in that respect having a Juno plugin for example is just that...A Juno. But instead of having a whole load of hardware in my studio I've got them all on a hard drive. There's not any room left in my studio anyway haha. I'll sit for hours playing my guitar through Kuassa stuff. So that's where I'm coming from. If I was recording music then sure, maybe I'd choose something which sits in the mix but I'm more into playing the instruments themselves just for the hell of it.

yeah, makes total sense. I wouldn’t bother with the stock stuff either if I had better sounding options and I was just playing around with them for fun.

[Yonatan]

Discussions like these are both entertaining and insightful with all different reflections and points.
I love both the ability to sculpt a blake sound, into something tasty, as well as already crafted presets that just makes you get those ideas floating as soon as you get your fingers on it.

What I find a bit tiresome with quite many devices, is that there instantly often are so many adjustments needed to the basics, for it to sound ok.
So many times I just rather have a neutral patch as first launch (reset is the best one). But I would love some not too extreme settings at standard sounds, but often it is overly compressed and muddy or too sticky. Then there are really good presets as pearls here and there, often in effect devices more than instruments, and well hidden if an instrument. The thing is to find the good ones and remember those among the crowd.

I would love to be able to edit standard presets and save them as same preset (replacing), in other words, to correct them to my taste, and thus never ever have to deal with that same preset need to adjust same things allover again. Yes, I can make own presets and save as new, but I would rather like to replace so they just show up as standard.

[visheshl]

yeah even id love to be able to alter a preset to my liking and save it there itself in the factory refill

edit : but the drawback is it wont sound as great for another track..so perhaps you're better off saving the preset separately without altering the original patch

[Yonatan]

yeah even id love to be able to alter a preset to my liking and save it there itself in the factory refill

edit : but the drawback is it wont sound as great for another track..so perhaps you're better off saving the preset separately without altering the original patch

Yes, true about track-specific changes. I could have been clearer that I meant as a general preset. I actually had RDK in mind where the presets as standard are not in my instant taste as things to start out with, so I then either have to reset and start all over, or go into the preset and adjust or I can go dig out a less processed patch in the browser. Best option would be for a patch-browserit to be able to "remember" via a button to "nail" that preset with my adjustments, but with the original preset values as a core to come back to. Then I can better switch kits with equal settings so I can judge what kind of kit is suited, not so much having to bother with the difference in the preset settings. I can live with tweaking away, but it is time consuming in long run, as it goes back every time you just walk through the different presets. But maybe I should dedicate a day to really do such adjustments and save separate, and always load devices empty. Adjusting presets according to a certain track, it can be quite fun and rewarding, but having to do it very often is a bit tedious.

[adfielding]

I've never thought that Radical Piano sounds thin, but I tend to go more toward the heavily compressed-yet-subdued side of things. I like my pianos to have a bit of intimacy which was generally lacking in most sample banks, though I think NI's Noire and Una Corda Kontakt banks have also done a bang-up job of filling that particular need.

[Yonatan]

I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with Radical Piano. I love how it is laid out and it is possible to get it sound very good, but it is also capable to really have a bad hair day. In other words, it can reflect my mood. Some other pianos can be easier to sound smooth just as they are. But RP is different. It´s a rebel and a radical.