Anyone developing a mixer?

[Murf]

Great project and very cool!

Regarding GUI, IMHO, it seems visually distracting with so many diagonals, dBu labels, and outlined LEDs. Any consideration for a cleaner, minimalist design? iZotope came to this conclusion beginning with Ozone 6 when they hired a GUI expert to clean up their entire product line.

Thanks for the feedback!
I have definitely considered re-designing the greater part of the RE to be honest, however it is supposed to be inspired by a real world physical mixer, the MIDAS XL88, and I do not want to stray too far from it's look and feel.
I have had lots of requests (even a suggestion from Reason themselves) to make it stereo, so I have decided to make that change. I may consider more, but they wont really affect the UI much if at all.
I plan to design a new RE after this one that incorporates all the things this one is missing, and with a much better UI
Murf.

[reasonosaer]

I think he wants to make a 1:1 copy of the original because it was a revelation to many people who used it back in the day that weren't sure what they were looking at at first glance but went ahead and used it anyway despite the "busy" front panel. From the era when Midas stuff was well engineered and made, the xl88s had the honor of being stolen from a lot of sets as did the old speck xtramix location consoles. I'm all for making a reason optimized version or update but try it out before reinventing it. Try setting up an ambient or drone related pedal board with all the time and modulation stuff on parallel sends like in the reason ssl mixer, try making a drum template with per channel parallel compression and delay, try multiple instances of your favorite delay or filter envelope synced to the bpm at different intervals. It was a pro live sound and location tool that turns out to have a lots of creative potential, matrix mixers are good fun and you should try one. Lucky people with a surfeit of midi controlled synth modules made some great proto-rompler sampled instruments using the hardware version.

For my part in terms of RE mixers I'd like an 8:2 version of the Ekssperimental sounds 6ch mixer with an aux stereo input on the master and also a new skin or just some different colors for the old reason rack mixers which I've always found hard to look at. While I'm ordering can I also get an SSL 2.0 for Reason 14 that's switchable per channel between all of the brainworx/ua ssl models, and since I guess they've partnered or merged in this scenario let's throw in the neve and focusrite consoles and whatever else they've modeled by then too. They could cut this deal and poach some indie talent to redo the sequencer and make lots of green money three or four years from now as the hottest daw on the market, that's how you know they won't do it. We might get a chatGPT powered synth that generates a mood appropriate patch for you after you discuss your problems and feelings with it by then though. And if we're really lucky five years after that we might get an otherwise still completely broken browser that uses sophisticated general ai to remember what term you just searched for in the instruments tab after you've manually told it whether you meant to search utilities or effects.

[selig]

My 2 cents…
I'd say if you want to appeal to the folks who used the original you have no choice but to follow the original design, same for any product IMO.
That said…"Back in the day" you often had no choice but to use the gear that was on hand, and so you often had no choice but to put in the time to work around the interface complexity and get past the quirks to find the gold in the design (if it was even there). I worked in many studio with odd console designs I eventually got my head around, but man what a pain. But software is different, you don't HAVE to use the gear someone else installed…
So for the rest of us, just give us the gold please!
Side note - in the Eurorack world there is a company (https://grayscale.info/panels/) that sells alternate front panels for popular devices. They are successful because they simplify (and some would say 'beautify') the panel design while not changing functionality. For most of us, it's the function first, and design second that we want from a re-creation product. There is no logical reason to copy the flaws of the original IMO.

[Murf]

So for the rest of us, just give us the gold please!

Yeah I am thinking I may have to
I will see how I go with Stereo.
It is more complex than you first think, for example it is easy enough to convert all the channel VU meters by making 2 close together instead of one, and the Fade slider can even be split in two, but what about the bajillion gain knobs? They will all be setting gain for a stereo signal with no way of panning.
After looking at the 14:2 internal mixer I think this wont be an issue.

Another bugbear I have is the way they implemented the "row" format of matrix mixing, where a "column" format makes so much more sense.
I might have a button that swaps between "original" row mode and "sensible" column mode (no offense Midas...)
That may have to be it though, I will save the rest for Mark 2
Murf.

[selig]

So for the rest of us, just give us the gold please!

Yeah I am thinking I may have to
I will see how I go with Stereo.
It is more complex than you first think, for example it is easy enough to convert all the channel VU meters by making 2 close together instead of one, and the Fade slider can even be split in two, but what about the bajillion gain knobs? They will all be setting gain for a stereo signal with no way of panning.
After looking at the 14:2 internal mixer I think this wont be an issue.

Another bugbear I have is the way they implemented the "row" format of matrix mixing, where a "column" format makes so much more sense.
I might have a button that swaps between "original" row mode and "sensible" column mode (no offense Midas...)
That may have to be it though, I will save the rest for Mark 2
Murf.

Well for one, on a digital device do you really need full peak meters on every channel? I Mackie "signal present" LED would do as well, something I've found useful on a few of my devices.
And one fader for stereo signals is fine, as is a single "Signal" type LED IMO. Or ditch the fader and just use another (bigger) knob?
And you don't need an input trim either IMO, you can use that space for a panner maybe?
The "ROW" arrangement makes sense if you compare to sends in other mixers, right?

[Murf]

Well for one, on a digital device do you really need full peak meters on every channel? I Mackie "signal present" LED would do as well, something I've found useful on a few of my devices.
And one fader for stereo signals is fine, as is a single "Signal" type LED IMO. Or ditch the fader and just use another (bigger) knob?
And you don't need an input trim either IMO, you can use that space for a panner maybe?

Agreed, but... it has to have SOME resemblance to the original

The "ROW" arrangement makes sense if you compare to sends in other mixers, right?

Agreed but at first I assumed it was column! (it could just be me)
The fact that you think it should be row anyway is enough for me!

Anyway all the stereo logic and UI is done apart from splitting the VU's and the Fader... and I consider that a challenge so the games begin!

P.S., on the topic of VU, I have been calibrating my meters to be the same as other rack devices but I notice things like the 14:2 and the BigMeter are all about 9dB more sensitive.
I feel my mixer should at least do the same thing as the 14:2 in this respect so i will re-calibrate, but any insight would be most welcome (I didn't get much joy from the reason devs when I asked them)

Murf

[selig]

Agreed, but... it has to have SOME resemblance to the original

Murf

That's up to you, but I don't care if it does or doesn't since I have no nostalgia for the original! And I don't "get" the original so the more like the original the less likely I am to try it.
I would want something useful in Reason, which the original may or may not be.
Again, sticking to the original will appeal to folks who used the original - but how many of those are there compared to those who want something better than the original?

When I made my first RE, the first question my co-developer David Antliff asked was "Who is this device for", and I quickly realized I hadn't fully understood the implications of answering that question as fully as possible. So I'll ask it here in the hopes that answering it will help you as it helped me.
Who do you see as the typical/desired user of this device?

[Murf]

Agreed, but... it has to have SOME resemblance to the original

Murf

That's up to you, but I don't care if it does or doesn't since I have no nostalgia for the original! And I don't "get" the original so the more like the original the less likely I am to try it.
I would want something useful in Reason, which the original may or may not be.
Again, sticking to the original will appeal to folks who used the original - but how many of those are there compared to those who want something better than the original?

When I made my first RE, the first question my co-developer David Antliff asked was "Who is this device for", and I quickly realized I hadn't fully understood the implications of answering that question as fully as possible. So I'll ask it here in the hopes that answering it will help you as it helped me.
Who do you see as the typical/desired user of this device?

People who asked for an 8x8 matrix mixer!
I get your points, and I have made some compromises along those lines so far and I am sure there will be more.
It definitely needs to be useful in Reason and also fit into the ecosystem, working well with other REs.
Murf.

[reasonosaer]

people: anyone working on a mixer?

murf: i've got an idea for a really cool one, check it out

people: we wanted a mixer, what is this strange object with lots of channels and knobs and faders and metering?

random 90s foh guy: a really cool kind of mixer called a matrix mixer based on a hardware classic. the hardware version also confused a lot of people who didn't get it at first glance but many of them went on to love the thing after they tried it in a creative context, give it a shot!

people: meh, i don't have any nostalgia for this thing i'm just now learning about. i was just told that lots of folks who aren't foh engineers didn't understand the concept at first glance but nonetheless came to love it after giving it a chance, but i'm only interested in things i already understand. why don't you just make me a copy of something i'm nostalgic for that does the exact same thing as the mixers we already have instead, otherwise i can't imagine why me or anyone else would be interested...

Murf just make what you want and ignore the people trying to talk to you into changing the concept while freely admitting that they don't understand the concept. Or make the XL88 for yourself and then collaborate with them on something else. They can try it for free so a few of them will have the same experience as creative people who experimented with the original. Unfortunately most of their fates were sealed by the immutable laws of internet debate when they posted their first or second comment and they are now honor bound to go to their graves flatly denying that either matrix mixers in general or the xl88 in particular have any conceptual validity or creative potential in any context for people of their quality and experience...

[Murf]

people: anyone working on a mixer?

murf: i've got an idea for a really cool one, check it out

people: we wanted a mixer, what is this strange object with lots of channels and knobs and faders and metering?

random 90s foh guy: a really cool kind of mixer called a matrix mixer based on a hardware classic. the hardware version also confused a lot of people who didn't get it at first glance but many of them went on to love the thing after they tried it in a creative context, give it a shot!

people: meh, i don't have any nostalgia for this thing i'm just now learning about. i was just told that lots of folks who aren't foh engineers didn't understand the concept at first glance but nonetheless came to love it after giving it a chance, but i'm only interested in things i already understand. why don't you just make me a copy of something i'm nostalgic for that does the exact same thing as the mixers we already have instead, otherwise i can't imagine why me or anyone else would be interested...

Murf just make what you want and ignore the people trying to talk to you into changing the concept while freely admitting that they don't understand the concept. Or make the XL88 for yourself and then collaborate with them on something else. They can try it for free so a few of them will have the same experience as creative people who experimented with the original. Unfortunately most of their fates were sealed by the immutable laws of internet debate when they posted their first or second comment and they are now honor bound to go to their graves flatly denying that either matrix mixers in general or the xl88 in particular have any conceptual validity or creative potential in any context for people of their quality and experience...

lmao!

[selig]

people: anyone working on a mixer?

murf: i've got an idea for a really cool one, check it out

people: we wanted a mixer, what is this strange object with lots of channels and knobs and faders and metering?

random 90s foh guy: a really cool kind of mixer called a matrix mixer based on a hardware classic. the hardware version also confused a lot of people who didn't get it at first glance but many of them went on to love the thing after they tried it in a creative context, give it a shot!

people: meh, i don't have any nostalgia for this thing i'm just now learning about. i was just told that lots of folks who aren't foh engineers didn't understand the concept at first glance but nonetheless came to love it after giving it a chance, but i'm only interested in things i already understand. why don't you just make me a copy of something i'm nostalgic for that does the exact same thing as the mixers we already have instead, otherwise i can't imagine why me or anyone else would be interested...

Murf just make what you want and ignore the people trying to talk to you into changing the concept while freely admitting that they don't understand the concept. Or make the XL88 for yourself and then collaborate with them on something else. They can try it for free so a few of them will have the same experience as creative people who experimented with the original. Unfortunately most of their fates were sealed by the immutable laws of internet debate when they posted their first or second comment and they are now honor bound to go to their graves flatly denying that either matrix mixers in general or the xl88 in particular have any conceptual validity or creative potential in any context for people of their quality and experience...

I’ll have what he’s having!