Synapse Audio "Obsession" RE - coming soon!

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kinkujin
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Post 24 Jun 2020

EdGrip wrote:
24 Jun 2020
It's very kind of them, really. It means they get *less* money from crossgrade customers than just-the-VST customers. I don't think many people would object if they asked crossgraders to cover the cost of the RS commission, but we're not complaining!
It is and I think it's having the desired effect on customer loyalty from me at least. Not only a great developer with fab products but a very fair and generous business model. I truly hope it is working for them as I would probably pay an upcharge to get the VST or RE, whichever was first.

Thanks Synapse!

botnotbot
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Post 26 Jun 2020

EdGrip wrote:
24 Jun 2020
botnotbot wrote:
21 Jun 2020


They don't have to pay anyone a fee to give you a free VST. To give you a free RE they need to pay Reason Studios the percentage of the sale, despite the fact that there was no sale.
If VST and RE are the same price, this works the other way too - if someone buys the RE but gets the VST for free, Synapse still lose the same RE sale percentage. Basically (RE+VST), to Synapse, is always (1x price -RS commission). Doesn't matter which way round they do it.
Not exactly. One is the equivalent of subtracting the RE commission from their gross VST profit. The other would come out of pocket. I am not an accountant or a lawyer but I don't think these are entirely the same from a finance department point of view.

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antic604
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Post 26 Jun 2020

botnotbot wrote:
26 Jun 2020
EdGrip wrote:
24 Jun 2020


If VST and RE are the same price, this works the other way too - if someone buys the RE but gets the VST for free, Synapse still lose the same RE sale percentage. Basically (RE+VST), to Synapse, is always (1x price -RS commission). Doesn't matter which way round they do it.
Not exactly. One is the equivalent of subtracting the RE commission from their gross VST profit. The other would come out of pocket. I am not an accountant or a lawyer but I don't think these are entirely the same from a finance department point of view.
They have uniform development platform / framework, so there's not much format-specific work, this I'd assume fees like thia go into one common bucket. Also, I don't even think this is seen as 'cost', they simply earn less. It's not like that pay it separately.
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botnotbot
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Post 28 Jun 2020

antic604 wrote:
26 Jun 2020
botnotbot wrote:
26 Jun 2020


Not exactly. One is the equivalent of subtracting the RE commission from their gross VST profit. The other would come out of pocket. I am not an accountant or a lawyer but I don't think these are entirely the same from a finance department point of view.
They have uniform development platform / framework, so there's not much format-specific work, this I'd assume fees like thia go into one common bucket. Also, I don't even think this is seen as 'cost', they simply earn less. It's not like that pay it separately.
Not true. If they gave you an RE license for free, they would have to pay real cash to RS. The comparison that the cost is the same in both directions is also false from a finance department perspective as I mentioned.

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antic604
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Post 28 Jun 2020

botnotbot wrote:
28 Jun 2020
antic604 wrote:
26 Jun 2020


They have uniform development platform / framework, so there's not much format-specific work, this I'd assume fees like thia go into one common bucket. Also, I don't even think this is seen as 'cost', they simply earn less. It's not like that pay it separately.
Not true. If they gave you an RE license for free, they would have to pay real cash to RS. The comparison that the cost is the same in both directions is also false from a finance department perspective as I mentioned.
You can't say it's 'not true', as you - and I - have no idea how they account for their income & costs :)
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eusti
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Post 28 Jun 2020

botnotbot wrote:
28 Jun 2020
Not true. If they gave you an RE license for free, they would have to pay real cash to RS. The comparison that the cost is the same in both directions is also false from a finance department perspective as I mentioned.
True or not the Synapse guy answered to the question on the KVR forum that owners of the VST can be awarded the RE for free.
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EsotericSound
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Post 28 Jun 2020

Although I'm lucky enough to be an owner of an OB-6, I think I'll be getting this RE anyway, just in the case the day comes I ever need to sell the hardware. Even though I have a Moog Slim Phatty, I think The Legend does the "Moog bass" better than my real thing.

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BRIGGS
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Post 28 Jun 2020

wow :shock: ......the......the..........sound!!!

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My music made in Reason : https://audius.co/jeff40529158

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Boombastix
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Post 28 Jun 2020

eusti wrote:
28 Jun 2020

True or not the Synapse guy answered to the question on the KVR forum that owners of the VST can be awarded the RE for free.
The cost to this is quite small if you think of as marketing expenditure. Synapse have quality products, but the market is extremely saturated, and prices have dropped a lot in the past 1½yrs. Thorn for $20, Oberhausen $20, Waves now at $23, many freebies, and so on. Most stuff sound really good and is cheap.

Expectation is probably to price at $99, do a sale at 50% do get volume up, so even a 30% cut for the RE cross-grades is good business, can also be seen as an intro-price. And it generates a lot of loyalty, quite a win-win IMO.
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EnochLight
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Post 04 Jul 2020

botnotbot wrote:
28 Jun 2020
If they gave you an RE license for free, they would have to pay real cash to RS.
I'm not sure where you got this idea, as this is patently false. Devs can issue RE licenses at no cost to a user or the dev even if their product is being sold in the shop for a price. All they need is your username for your account. It's really quite simple. :thumbs_up:
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EdGrip
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Post 04 Jul 2020

EnochLight wrote:
04 Jul 2020
botnotbot wrote:
28 Jun 2020
If they gave you an RE license for free, they would have to pay real cash to RS.
I'm not sure where you got this idea, as this is patently false. Devs can issue RE licenses at no cost to a user or the dev even if their product is being sold in the shop for a price. All they need is your username for your account. It's really quite simple. :thumbs_up:
Well! This changes things.
This means if you want Synapse to get the most benefit from your purchase, you should buy the VST and get the free RE.

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miscend
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Post 06 Jul 2020

EdGrip wrote:
04 Jul 2020
EnochLight wrote:
04 Jul 2020


I'm not sure where you got this idea, as this is patently false. Devs can issue RE licenses at no cost to a user or the dev even if their product is being sold in the shop for a price. All they need is your username for your account. It's really quite simple. :thumbs_up:
Well! This changes things.
This means if you want Synapse to get the most benefit from your purchase, you should buy the VST and get the free RE.
That explains how I saw DNA labs selling their RE on their eBay store.

Edit: This was a few years ago, not now.

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EnochLight
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Post 06 Jul 2020

miscend wrote:
06 Jul 2020

That explains how I saw DNA labs selling their RE on their eBay store.

Edit: This was a few years ago, not now.
I was about to say - that’s a violation of TOS between devs and Reason Studios. Great way to get your RE pulled from the shop. :shock: :o :(
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JiggeryPokery
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Post 07 Jul 2020

EnochLight wrote:
04 Jul 2020
botnotbot wrote:
28 Jun 2020
If they gave you an RE license for free, they would have to pay real cash to RS.
I'm not sure where you got this idea, as this is patently false. Devs can issue RE licenses at no cost to a user or the dev even if their product is being sold in the shop for a price. All they need is your username for your account. It's really quite simple. :thumbs_up:
I'm not sure where you got that idea, as this is actually false, since RS limit the number of free licenses devs give out to 100, except for special circumstances by request. I can't see "avoiding giving RS any money" would be one of those circumstances. Free licenses are only for competition gifts/testing rewards , or generally for the benefit of promotion. It's really quite simple. :thumbs_up:

EdGrip
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Post 07 Jul 2020

I'm which case, we revert to "it doesn't matter which way round you buy-then-crossgrade."

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 07 Jul 2020

EdGrip wrote:
07 Jul 2020
I'm which case, we revert to "it doesn't matter which way round you buy-then-crossgrade."
I might be misunderstanding your comment, and if so, apologies, but based on my read of it it kind of does matter.

It only reliably works for sure if you buy the RE first. To get the VST first you have to hope that the dev has enough free licenses available to graciously offer it the other way. In practice, that means fewer than 80 crossgrades from VST purchase are available, as 5-10 of those licenses will be for beta testers, one each for your direct staff, obviously, at least 5 to offer to the press (though they ignore REs anyway, so .... those will always be spare :lol: ) and for safety you'd need to keep a few back just in case. Now, there might be a good chance, maybe even a strong chance, that the number of people needing a crossgrade from VST to RE will be fewer than 80 forever, or at least for long enough that it's never a problem, but if your product is good enough and the Reason and RE format are successful as RS say it is, that 80 would be reached fairly quickly.

However, the moment that limit is reached either there's no more crossgrading in that direction—in effect it's an indefinite time offer but limited in numbers—

or the developer crawls to RS and requests more free licenses.

The problem is, if RS grant them more licenses, RS are now effectively permitting the sale of REs outside of the shop, as they're not receiving income on the sale. So, at that point, if the dev gets those extra free licenses, then the rest of us would have to take Reason Studios to court as they'd be breaching the contract that we can't sell REs sold outside the shop, because that's explicitly what the developer would be doing. From 80 available free licenses, one can call it a courtesy offer. The moment more licenses are given, it becomes explicit. This is a crucial distinction.

Since a VST sold direct isn't subject to RS tax, a user could theoretically buy a VST for a fraction of the price that the dev has to sell the RE for, just to get the more expensive RE version via a free crossgrade. RS earns nothing on the deal, but the VST producer effectively earns more.

EdGrip
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Post 07 Jul 2020

Can a dev issue a non-free RE license? Because that's what I've had in mind for most of this thought experiment: a dev can issue a license, but has to pay RS the money RS would have made on that sale.

It sounds like you're saying "Buy the RE, get the free VST" for maximum benefit to Synapse?

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 07 Jul 2020

EdGrip wrote:
07 Jul 2020
Can a dev issue a non-free RE license? Because that's what I've had in mind for most of this thought experiment: a dev can issue a license, but has to pay RS the money RS would have made on that sale.

It sounds like you're saying "Buy the RE, get the free VST" for maximum benefit to Synapse?
Just to clear, I'm talking generally, not specifically about Synapse or any other dev. ;)

It's potentially the other way around provided the VST is the same price or less than the RE, but not less than ~70% of the RE price, as the dev will always earn less on the RE sale given they have to give up at least 30%. (And to keep it simple, I'm assuming we're talking direct VST sales from a dev's website; obviously it's different again if the plugin is sold via another third-party). [Edit: and if the VST is more than the RE, then obviously it's better for the dev too!]

Currently there's no such thing as a non-free RE license. To my knowledge I don't think that's been discussed, or maybe even thought of before (at least, in an RE context :twisted: ) . That rather sounds like if RS made a system similar to what Native Instruments do with Kontakt, where [additional] licenses are pre-purchased by the developer. The downside for the dev is it can be a really expensive upfront cost. But yes, a system like that could work in theory, I just don't know off the bat without thinking it through how one might balance it. It would need to ensure RS earns some commission, high enough that it's not effectively bypassing the shop, but low enough it makes it a valid alternate revenue for the developer, as it would still have legal implications for the sale of REs: either everyone could do it if they wish, regardless of whether it's a cross-grade from another format, or no-one can. It's a tricky one, but yeah, there could be a workable solution.
Last edited by JiggeryPokery on 07 Jul 2020, edited 1 time in total.

EdGrip
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Post 07 Jul 2020

I think the VST and the RE are the same price (outside of sales, but I don't think the crossgrade offer applies to sale purchases).

Basically, back when people were getting the crossgrade offer on Legend, I was trying to work out which "direction" allowed Synapse to keep the most money.

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 07 Jul 2020

EdGrip wrote:
07 Jul 2020
I think the VST and the RE are the same price (outside of sales, but I don't think the crossgrade offer applies to sale purchases).

Basically, back when people were getting the crossgrade offer on Legend, I was trying to work out which "direction" allowed Synapse to keep the most money.
OK, in which case it's still better for the dev to sell the VST and hand out the free RE license.

if both the RE and VST are £100, and REs lose 30% of revenue to the dev, then 70% of £100 is £70. 100% of £100 is £100. So it's better for the dev for people to buy the VST, and give out a free [xgrade] license (if one is available). It only becomes better to sell the RE if they're selling the VST for less than £70.

The smart play I suppose would be to sell the RE for £100, but the VST for £90, at least until you run out of freeahemcrossgrade licenses. ;)

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EnochLight
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Post 07 Jul 2020

JiggeryPokery wrote:
07 Jul 2020
I'm not sure where you got that idea, as this is actually false, since RS limit the number of free licenses devs give out to 100, except for special circumstances by request. I can't see "avoiding giving RS any money" would be one of those circumstances. Free licenses are only for competition gifts/testing rewards , or generally for the benefit of promotion. It's really quite simple. :thumbs_up:
As always Matt, thanks for setting the record straight with your adorable snark! :lol: :thumbs_up:

Hope things are going well.
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dannyF
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Post 07 Jul 2020

Tried the VST, seems the CPU usage is acceptable. Sounds great!

Has anyone else tested VST performance? Any comments there?

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EnochLight
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Post 07 Jul 2020

dannyF wrote:
07 Jul 2020
Tried the VST, seems the CPU usage is acceptable. Sounds great!

Has anyone else tested VST performance? Any comments there?
I'm running the VST on a rather old i7 3770K and 16GB of RAM. CPU usage is perfectly fine as far as I can tell.
Win 10 | Reason 12 |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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dannyF
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Post 07 Jul 2020

Cool.

I was going to purchase a deepmind12D to tide me over until I can afford a ( OB-6 ), but this sounds pretty sweet.

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SebAudio
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Post 07 Jul 2020

EnochLight wrote:
07 Jul 2020
JiggeryPokery wrote:
07 Jul 2020
I'm not sure where you got that idea, as this is actually false, since RS limit the number of free licenses devs give out to 100, except for special circumstances by request. I can't see "avoiding giving RS any money" would be one of those circumstances. Free licenses are only for competition gifts/testing rewards , or generally for the benefit of promotion. It's really quite simple. :thumbs_up:
As always Matt, thanks for setting the record straight with your adorable snark! :lol: :thumbs_up:
An instructive one. At least interesting.
Seb Audio ( :reason: 11 waiting for HD v12 / Ableton Live 10 + RRP 11-PX7)
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