ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION about the proposed "REs with known bugs" list

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
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diminished
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Post 22 May 2020

joeyluck wrote:
22 May 2020
the viewer is very likely not going to see most of the REs that could be on the list (because the people participating simply don't own them or know about them)
Well, the more popular a rack extension is, the more likely is it that a bug is spotted. I don't think anyone doubts that. And isn't that popularity also some sort of motivator for the developer to do right by the customers? After all, devs (good ones, imho) encourage and reward people for finding bugs.
And of course bugs in popular REs will have the highest demand for being fixed? I really don't see any problem here.

Edit: I think any cry for public shaming comes from the frustration that there are known bugs, yet the developers don't do anything about them.
Last edited by diminished on 22 May 2020, edited 1 time in total.
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joeyluck
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Post 22 May 2020

diminished wrote:
22 May 2020
can you link to where someone called for prublic shaming? Was this just your interpretation or is it a quote?
It was said. I don't feel it necessary to draw all the attention to it. I think this thread can work as long as the energy can move away from that. This was the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7517732

"customers need to be warned and developers need to be publicly shamed"

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diminished
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Post 22 May 2020

joeyluck wrote:
22 May 2020
diminished wrote:
22 May 2020
can you link to where someone called for prublic shaming? Was this just your interpretation or is it a quote?
It was said. I don't feel it necessary to draw all the attention to it. I think this thread can work as long as the energy can move away from that. This was the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7517732

"customers need to be warned and developers need to be publicly shamed"
Gotcha, thanks. Yeah I really do think that a little public pressure can help, and it helps manage people their expectations when it comes to certain products and their maintenance. Shouldn't be public shaming, of course, but I understand the frustration behind it.
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diminished
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Post 22 May 2020

diminished wrote:
22 May 2020
joeyluck wrote:
22 May 2020
the viewer is very likely not going to see most of the REs that could be on the list (because the people participating simply don't own them or know about them)
Well, the more popular a rack extension is, the more likely is it that a bug is spotted. I don't think anyone doubts that. And isn't that popularity also some sort of motivator for the developer to do right by the customers? After all, devs (good ones, imho) encourage and reward people for finding bugs.
And of course bugs in popular REs will have the highest demand for being fixed? I really don't see any problem here.

Edit: I think any cry for public shaming comes from the frustration that there are known bugs, yet the developers don't do anything about them.
would you agree, by the way?
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joeyluck
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Post 22 May 2020

diminished wrote:
22 May 2020
diminished wrote:
22 May 2020


Well, the more popular a rack extension is, the more likely is it that a bug is spotted. I don't think anyone doubts that. And isn't that popularity also some sort of motivator for the developer to do right by the customers? After all, devs (good ones, imho) encourage and reward people for finding bugs.
And of course bugs in popular REs will have the highest demand for being fixed? I really don't see any problem here.

Edit: I think any cry for public shaming comes from the frustration that there are known bugs, yet the developers don't do anything about them.
would you agree, by the way?
No I don't, sorry.

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diminished
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Post 22 May 2020

I wonder why. Good talk, cya!
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MrFigg
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Post 22 May 2020

diminished wrote:
22 May 2020
I wonder why. Good talk, cya!
😂
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joeyluck
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Post 22 May 2020

diminished wrote:
22 May 2020
I wonder why. Good talk, cya!
I feel like I've already expressed that a few times.

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challism
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Post 22 May 2020

Hey Joey, thanks for coming back in here, and thanks for your words. You do a lot for RT and you are appreciated.
joeyluck wrote:
22 May 2020
I'm only trying to help by pointing out concerns of having a pinned post with a list, which would be presented in what could be perceived as official.
I totally get that. Perhaps pinning it was way out of line and I should have discussed it with the other mods. Kind of a "my bad" thing there, I think. Sorry about that. I certainly don't speak for anybody but myself, and pinned threads should have the support of the community and mod team.
And after all, this thread was born out of another thread, in which it was said, "developers need to be publicly shamed." I appreciate you all and what this thread could be. And I'm a big fan of challism :) and I know we all can be passionate or upset about different things, so I'm only trying to help guide some of that.
Hey, wait is that a wink or a smile? ha ha

This idea has been floating around for a while, or at least it seems that way to me. I remember seeing it in a thread or two over the past few weeks (or is it months - I've lost track of time as I've gotten older). So it wasn't exactly born from that last thread, but perhaps it was the catalist to get it started.

As for the comment, yes, I did say that, and it appears to have become my own public shame. I picked the wrong choice of words. Shame was the wrong word to use in that thread. I say plenty of stupid shit off the cuff. I'll own that. I get that it sounds kind of bad, but it didn't come out exactly the way I meant it. f you read further down in that thread, I explained the idea that a dev having their name on such a list would be a shameful thing (or I would think it would make them feel a bit embarrassed, and might motivate them to fix their bugs). So I did mean it in a way to motivate them, not so much shame them, and certainly not talk a bunch of trash about them.

RANT WARNING: I absolutely love Reason. It's been a big part of my life for, what, 20 years now? Since version 1. Hell, I used to play with Rebirth back before that. So I wouldn't mean them any harm. That being said, I don't understand why they won't fix their buggy REs. There are a LOT of bugs. And it makes me mad they wont fix them. It's like Microsoft not fixing security issues with Windows 10. I'm not talking about WIndows XP or 7. Those aren't even sold by Microsoft anymore, so it's understandable that the support has stopped for those products. But RS is still selling their REs with known bugs. It just seems wrong to me.
Beyond having solid verification of bugs, I simply noted that I feel the list needs to be well kept and comprehensive.
I completely agree. And I don't think it will be that hard. This community loves this kind of "work" anyway, don't we?
But then there's another layer where folks apparently want the list to only involve products that they interpret and determine to be abandoned...so then there's posts referencing personal email messages and all the different interpretations of that...


I feel like having a list claiming that these REs have bugs or are abandoned can easily be a misrepresentation, because the viewer is very likely not going to see most of the REs that could be on the list (because the people participating simply don't own them or know about them). If it's not constantly kept going and becomes stale and then sits there with only a handful of devs and bugs singled out, that is a misrepresentation and unfair. So I'm not just talking about closing reports when I talk about upkeep.
Those are all good and valid concerns. We can hammer those out on this thread "before we begin" - I know, we should have hammered them out before we began. I'm a bull in a China shop, sometimes. Your comment about this thread being akin to an RE full of bugs... HA HA HA, had me dying!

We need to put together our guidelines, for sure. I think we can all agree that Hamu products won't be updated again, right? So those are essentially abandoned. But do they have known bugs? I don't remember ever hearing about them, if they do. So abandoned REs shouldn't be the focus here. The list should only focus on bugs. Abandoned or not, does it have known bugs that affect the functionality of the device? Has the dev been notified and given the chance to correct it? Etc... There should be a vetting process.

If this project turns out to be a big mess or a mistake, we have that delete button; it can always be taken down. And if it isn't kept up to date, we can (and should) take it down. You're right, it needs to be kept up to date or it isn't fair to the devs. We need to make sure we are fair to the devs.

As far as the REs who don't have any bug reports on the list due to nobody using the RE or knowing much about that RE, we can't do much about that. I have 2 ideas about that. 1) It's unlikely the RE will have many people interested in buying it, 2) we can put some kind of disclaimer at the beginning which explains that there are bugs in all software, and this is by no means a full and comprehensive list... bla bla bla.
I don't think it's impossible to manage. I only wanted to point out the attention to detail I feel would be necessary. I also think that if you open it up to all bugs and steer the thread's attention towards helping developers as well as users, that the energy will be in a better spot, and can move away from the initial motivation of "public shaming."
More mentions of public shaming. OK, OK, I'm feeling some public shame now. :( It just came out the wrong way, kind of like my cousin did at grandma's funeral.

I want this to be a positive project which will, hopefully, encourage devs to update their REs and also give potential buyers the heads up on some REs which have issues.
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WongoTheSane
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Post 22 May 2020

My two cents... While I understand the basic premise of this list, I'm not sure it would have the intended effect.

Basically, what we want is 1) to have bug-free devices and 2) warn potential buyers not to buy duds.

But imho devs can be split into three categories: 1) those who have left the building anyway, whose devices are indeed bugged and won't ever be fixed. 2) those who are still in business, whose devices still have bugs, and who probably won't fix them (RS, and I can't see any other). 3) those who are still here, who generally grace us with their presence here, and who fix bugs usually within a day of being notified, and we all know who they are: Robotic Bean, Jiggery Pokery, Lectric Panda, Rob Papen, Socram, EnlightenSpeed, and suddenly I realize I'm probably forgetting a bunch of them, sorry guys, I'll edit this list if need be.

Anyway, the third category isn't much concerned with this thread: we usually report bugs to them in the device's main thread, or through mail/social media, the bugs are fixed, no need to shame them or single them out or anything.

The second category isn't concerned with this thread either, because 1) they already have a bug tracker fed by their own beta testers and by other users; if they don't want to fix a bug because they think it's not worth it, they won't, end of. You can shame them all you want, it won't change a single thing.

All that remains is the first category. And they don't give a flying nefarious turdery either, because they're long gone. We all know who they are, most of them have been quoted in this very thread already. They're gone, not in the business anymore, and some of them have switched their focus to a fundamentally different segment of the market. Don't expect an update from them because there won't be.

So in the end, this list has a good intent, but no practical use at all. It won't change anything anywhere. It won't trigger an avalanche of updates and it won't prevent users who don't visit RT buying devices we'd advise against. It's just shaming people would obviously couldn't go on, quit the business for most of them, and chances are they didn't do so willingly. It's shaming people for something they probably can't do anything about.

There are other things that could achieve that goal, like ask RS that abandonned devices switch to Open Source so we can fix them ourselves (and that could be done, at least for some of the devices, provided they can contact the authors and offer a compensation or something in exchange for the IP - plus what Yan/pongasoft is working on at the moment, it could be a new beginning for the RE market).

Another point is that a thread isn't a bug tracker. Most dev I know use a proper tracker, on top of forum chat, because it's a proper tool. Dates, reproducibility, severity, description, sorting, all things that can't be done properly in a thread. I won't fight on this though, because it can be argued that once a bug is reported here, devs can copy/paste it in their trackers. But still, it's useless for two of the categories, and won't speed up the process for the third one.

Last point: some of the bugs you are reporting aren't bugs, hence the necessity for a bug tracker to be handled by the devs themselves. One example: the aliasing in Scream. It's not a bug, it's a design choice. Sound is a trade off between quality and CPU usage, they chose to save CPU for this particular device, and there is a workaround (render at 96kHz). So on that point, I'm on Joey's side: maintaining the list and qualifying the reports would be horrendously difficult, not to mention time consuming...

Edit: challism, I'm using "shame" in the same sense as what you clarified above: a metonymy for "pressure" (if I understood your clarification clearly :D )

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MrFigg
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Post 22 May 2020

WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
My two cents... While I understand the basic premise of this list, I'm not sure it would have the intended effect.

Basically, what we want is 1) to have bug-free devices and 2) warn potential buyers not to buy duds.

But imho devs can be split into three categories: 1) those who have left the building anyway, whose devices are indeed bugged and won't ever be fixed. 2) those who are still in business, whose devices still have bugs, and who probably won't fix them (RS, and I can't see any other). 3) those who are still here, who generally grace us with their presence here, and who fix bugs usually within a day of being notified, and we all know who they are: Robotic Bean, Jiggery Pokery, Lectric Panda, Rob Papen, Socram, EnlightenSpeed, and suddenly I realize I'm probably forgetting a bunch of them, sorry guys, I'll edit this list if need be.

Anyway, the third category isn't much concerned with this thread: we usually report bugs to them in the device's main thread, or through mail/social media, the bugs are fixed, no need to shame them or single them out or anything.

The second category isn't concerned with this thread either, because 1) they already have a bug tracker fed by their own beta testers and by other users; if they don't want to fix a bug because they think it's not worth it, they won't, end of. You can shame them all you want, it won't change a single thing.

All that remains is the first category. And they don't give a flying nefarious turdery either, because they're long gone. We all know who they are, most of them have been quoted in this very thread already. They're gone, not in the business anymore, and some of them have switched their focus to a fundamentally different segment of the market. Don't expect an update from them because there won't be.

So in the end, this list has a good intent, but no practical use at all. It won't change anything anywhere. It won't trigger an avalanche of updates and it won't prevent users who don't visit RT buying devices we'd advise against. It's just shaming people would obviously couldn't go on, quit the business for most of them, and chances are they didn't do so willingly. It's shaming people for something they probably can't do anything about.

There are other things that could achieve that goal, like ask RS that abandonned devices switch to Open Source so we can fix them ourselves (and that could be done, at least for some of the devices, provided they can contact the authors and offer a compensation or something in exchange for the IP - plus what Yan/pongasoft is working on at the moment, it could be a new beginning for the RE market).

Another point is that a thread isn't a bug tracker. Most dev I know use a proper tracker, on top of forum chat, because it's a proper tool. Dates, reproducibility, severity, description, sorting, all things that can't be done properly in a thread. I won't fight on this though, because it can be argued that once a bug is reported here, devs can copy/paste it in their trackers. But still, it's useless for two of the categories, and won't speed up the process for the third one.

Last point: some of the bugs you are reporting aren't bugs, hence the necessity for a bug tracker to be handled by the devs themselves. One example: the aliasing in Scream. It's not a bug, it's a design choice. Sound is a trade off between quality and CPU usage, they chose to save CPU for this particular device, and there is a workaround (render at 96kHz). So on that point, I'm on Joey's side: maintaining the list and qualifying the reports would be horrendously difficult, not to mention time consuming...

Edit: challism, I'm using "shame" in the same sense as what you clarified above: a metonymy for "pressure" (if I understood your clarification clearly :D )
Hej Wongo. I don’t think it really comes down to who’s side you’re on. We’re not fighting each other. That said I think everything you just wrote makes a lot of sense. Well thought out and explained. And I’m a pro-bug thread ReasonTalker.
Last edited by MrFigg on 22 May 2020, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveyG
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Post 22 May 2020

I think we'd easily weed out the nefarious turdery (one day I may call an album after that phrase). What I'm unhappy to read in this thread is the suggestion that we should not list bugs because some of the devs are active on this forum. It's fine for a dev to elect to stop fixing bugs after a period of time, especially the really obscure ones, but that does not mean we should not have that bug listed somewhere. There are always going to be bugs and almost all REs are extra difficult to test fully because they have CV inputs and if we've learned one thing on this forum it's that people are ingenious with the signals they will stuff into CV inputs. That ingenuity is going to find stuff that no-one every imagined!

So put whatever disclaimer you like on the list but the bugs should still be listed.

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challism
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Post 22 May 2020

WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
Basically, what we want is 1) to have bug-free devices and 2) warn potential buyers not to buy duds.

So in the end, this list has a good intent, but no practical use at all. It won't change anything anywhere.
Good points as always, Wongo. I agree, such a list probably won't help with number 1 as much as we'd like to think, but it will help with number 2. RT regularly comes up in Google searches so even if someone isn't a registered user, they might happen to see the list and it might help them out.

Speaking of number 2....
All that remains is the first category. And they don't give a flying nefarious turdery either, because they're long gone.
Nice use of our new phrase. Somebody notify Brain.
There are other things that could achieve that goal, like ask RS that abandonned devices switch to Open Source so we can fix them ourselves (and that could be done, at least for some of the devices, provided they can contact the authors and offer a compensation or something in exchange for the IP - plus what Yan/pongasoft is working on at the moment, it could be a new beginning for the RE market).
I LOVE this idea so much! I wonder what the likelihood of this ever happening really is, though. It would be amazing.
I'm on Joey's side: maintaining the list and qualifying the reports would be horrendously difficult, not to mention time consuming...
So we are picking sides now, huh? Sheeeet just got real! ;)

Yeah, this could be a lot of work. Or it might not be. I guess my rebuttal is: once the list is compiled, what are the chances the bugs will be fixed? Probably not very high, as you have already argued. So updating it shouldn't be a problem. This list isn't intended for the 3rd category of beloved devs who are still with us who faithfully update their products (you missed a bunch, but the list is too long to try and name them all). This list is for the 1st and 2nd category. So not much updating will be needed, unless I'm totally missing something.

The list shall be updated as much as their buggy REs are updated.... ha ha ha
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guitfnky
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Post 22 May 2020

the whole dispute over whether or not such a thread is a good idea fundamentally comes down to whether you’re more interested in protecting the consumer or the developer. if you’re looking out for the developer, you end up where Joey is. if you’re more concerned with the customer, you end up where I, and many others are.

and to be clear, there’s nothing wrong with coming down on either side—however, since this is *primarily* a user forum, it seems pretty obvious (to me at least) the answer should be YES, it’s a good idea—as in, we’re all consumers, and this information benefits us. it builds trust in the community, and in what RT stands for. and it also can still benefits devs, since they’re all consumers too, and presumably also would like to be fully informed before they buy other devices.

as for how to do it, I think it’s fairly straightforward...

bugs get added to the pinned list. the OP/mod updates the initial post based on feedback in the rest of the thread every so often.

the issue has to be replicated by at least one other user (preferably more), but if it’s not replicated, it doesn’t get on the list. if a dev chimes in and disputes something, it can be hashed out and updated accordingly. stuff that’s just “odd”, but can’t be definitively determined to be a bug can be chatted about to our hearts’ content in the comments.

if something gets on the list, but it’s later determined it doesn’t belong there, it gets removed.

easy peasy. :)

WongoTheSane
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Post 22 May 2020

challism wrote:
22 May 2020
So we are picking sides now, huh? Sheeeet just got real! ;)
MrFigg wrote:
22 May 2020
Hej Wongo. I don’t think it really comes down to who’s side you’re on. We’re not fighting each other.
Dammit guys, I meant I'm siding with Joey's argument!! :D :D :D I know we're in good company here, and I enjoy this thread because we're arguing about how best to achieve a noble goal. Ah yes we disagree, of course, what fun would it be if we didn't? Anyway, I'm not against anybody, you nefarious turds!!

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challism
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Post 22 May 2020

I think we want to give the dev a chance to fix the bug before the RE is added it to the list. I don't see the regular/active devs being put on this list.

Two examples:
1) If I find a bug in an Enlightenspeed RE, I send Brian a message and tell him about it. He fixes it and updates the RE in the shop.
NO need to add it to any list. Thanks for being such a great dev, Brian!
2) Reason Studios knows about a bug that has been reported and confirmed years ago. They do nothing about it. It goes on the list. Thanks for being such a great dev, RS, I love you and I love your products, please fix your bugs. ;)

How I see this working:

I think we should have a separate initial thread (in the RE forum) for each bug/device that is found, discussed, confirmed, etc, kind of like we do now. Upon the conclusion of that thread, it will either be added to the read-only master list (on a different thread) or it won't (because it was either fixed, deemed not to be a bug, deemed not critical or some other reason). Devs should be given the option to fix a bug before it goes on the list. This is done out of respect to the developer, and it will also save a lot of work from having to update the list for bugs that are being worked on.

I think a link to the initial discussion threads should be put in the master list under each device so people can go back and read thru the documentation, if they want to. The original discussion thread shouldn't be deleted or maybe not even locked(?). It should remain in place for reference, and it should be linked on the master list.

If a dev does an updated and fixes their bug, and we confirm it is fixed, it will be removed from the list. This won't be very difficult, as there will be a RSN file in the initial bug report thread. All we have to do is update our REs and open that file, follow the bug reproduction steps.

To me, this list should be more of a list saying "these are REs with problems, these are the problems, this is our evidence of the claims, the Devs know about the problems, and (most importantly) the Devs aren't going to be fixing them (or haven't yet). Buy if you can live with these problems."

Our bug confirmation process needs to be laid out, too.
WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
I'm not against anybody, you nefarious turds!!
Bwah ha ha ha! I don't think anybody's going to argue with that.
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Post 22 May 2020

WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
Anyway, I'm not against anybody, you nefarious turds!!
If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me?
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guitfnky
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Post 22 May 2020

WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
My two cents... While I understand the basic premise of this list, I'm not sure it would have the intended effect.

Basically, what we want is 1) to have bug-free devices and 2) warn potential buyers not to buy duds.

But imho devs can be split into three categories: 1) those who have left the building anyway, whose devices are indeed bugged and won't ever be fixed. 2) those who are still in business, whose devices still have bugs, and who probably won't fix them (RS, and I can't see any other). 3) those who are still here, who generally grace us with their presence here, and who fix bugs usually within a day of being notified, and we all know who they are: Robotic Bean, Jiggery Pokery, Lectric Panda, Rob Papen, Socram, EnlightenSpeed, and suddenly I realize I'm probably forgetting a bunch of them, sorry guys, I'll edit this list if need be.

Anyway, the third category isn't much concerned with this thread: we usually report bugs to them in the device's main thread, or through mail/social media, the bugs are fixed, no need to shame them or single them out or anything.
if the bugs are fixed, they get removed from the list. easy.
WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
The second category isn't concerned with this thread either, because 1) they already have a bug tracker fed by their own beta testers and by other users; if they don't want to fix a bug because they think it's not worth it, they won't, end of. You can shame them all you want, it won't change a single thing.
yes it will. it will allow users to make informed purchasing decisions. even if you think the developer's rights to release shoddy products is more important than the purchaser's right to make a good buy, based on solid information, it still does, by any definition change something.
WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
All that remains is the first category. And they don't give a flying nefarious turdery either, because they're long gone. We all know who they are, most of them have been quoted in this very thread already. They're gone, not in the business anymore, and some of them have switched their focus to a fundamentally different segment of the market. Don't expect an update from them because there won't be.
no one expects them to update such plugins. we want to be able to know about their weaknesses, so we can decide whether it's a good investment for us.
WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
So in the end, this list has a good intent, but no practical use at all. It won't change anything anywhere. It won't trigger an avalanche of updates and it won't prevent users who don't visit RT buying devices we'd advise against. It's just shaming people would obviously couldn't go on, quit the business for most of them, and chances are they didn't do so willingly. It's shaming people for something they probably can't do anything about.
it has good intent, and far more practical use than even somehow magically forcing developers to clean up their products--it results in people being happier with the software they've bought. what could be more practical than that? of course it won't stop people who don't see the information from making uninformed purchases. the perfect can't be the enemy of the good. it's not shaming (as has already been hashed out).
WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
There are other things that could achieve that goal, like ask RS that abandonned devices switch to Open Source so we can fix them ourselves (and that could be done, at least for some of the devices, provided they can contact the authors and offer a compensation or something in exchange for the IP - plus what Yan/pongasoft is working on at the moment, it could be a new beginning for the RE market).
that would never happen.
WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
Another point is that a thread isn't a bug tracker. Most dev I know use a proper tracker, on top of forum chat, because it's a proper tool. Dates, reproducibility, severity, description, sorting, all things that can't be done properly in a thread. I won't fight on this though, because it can be argued that once a bug is reported here, devs can copy/paste it in their trackers. But still, it's useless for two of the categories, and won't speed up the process for the third one.
once again, it's not about tracking bugs for the developers. no one is suggesting that. it's an information tool for users. and it's done in user forums ALL THE TIME.
WongoTheSane wrote:
22 May 2020
Last point: some of the bugs you are reporting aren't bugs, hence the necessity for a bug tracker to be handled by the devs themselves. One example: the aliasing in Scream. It's not a bug, it's a design choice. Sound is a trade off between quality and CPU usage, they chose to save CPU for this particular device, and there is a workaround (render at 96kHz). So on that point, I'm on Joey's side: maintaining the list and qualifying the reports would be horrendously difficult, not to mention time consuming...
and if it's doing something it's designed to do, it gets discussed in the comments, and never added to the list in the first post.

it's amazing how difficult some seem to think this has to be, but it's done very frequently elsewhere, and without so much fuss. is ReasonTalk somehow fundamentally different than other user forums? no. it's definitely something else...

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joeyluck
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Post 22 May 2020

challism wrote:
22 May 2020
Yeah, this could be a lot of work. Or it might not be. I guess my rebuttal is: once the list is compiled, what are the chances the bugs will be fixed? Probably not very high, as you have already argued. So updating it shouldn't be a problem. This list isn't intended for the 3rd category of beloved devs who are still with us who faithfully update their products (you missed a bunch, but the list is too long to try and name them all). This list is for the 1st and 2nd category. So not much updating will be needed, unless I'm totally missing something.

The list shall be updated as much as their buggy REs are updated.... ha ha ha
See I think this is where I see a problem stemming from—having it out for certain devs and making the determination that they have "abandoned" their products and who is "beloved" and "faithfully updates" their products.

Some bugs are difficult to fix. Fixing some bugs can introduce new problems, odd behaviors and compatibility issues. Sometimes it's difficult to figure out a good fix. I've been beta testing for so many devs and the bug trackers all have bugs ages old.

My other concern is brushing it off as not being a lot of work once a list is compiled. The list is never done. I think if doing a list, an all-inclusive list including any bug would be best. Again, if you are still leaning towards a list that interprets and declares abandonment, I don't think that would be good. You could still have dates for when they are reported and confirmed, and get whatever side message you want across that way.

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MrFigg
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Post 22 May 2020

For the record, I just asked Reason Studios straight out if they’re ever intending to fix the bugs in their REs. I did this directly after reporting the Layers bug. I await their reply with both fervour and anticipation.
丰2ॐ

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MannequinRaces
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Post 22 May 2020

Fixing bugs that aren’t serious don’t make money. If you are RS you have to pay an employee(s) to fix bugs instead of having them do something more profitable. Would fixing old bugs improve goodwill with your customers sure. If you don’t fix bugs and you’re a solo developer that’s almost a death knell. If you’re RS and you don’t fix bugs you have economies of scale on your side because you’re selling more than a solo dev. I think a lot of people forget that a business like RS is designed to make money.

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guitfnky
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Post 22 May 2020

joeyluck wrote:
22 May 2020
challism wrote:
22 May 2020
Yeah, this could be a lot of work. Or it might not be. I guess my rebuttal is: once the list is compiled, what are the chances the bugs will be fixed? Probably not very high, as you have already argued. So updating it shouldn't be a problem. This list isn't intended for the 3rd category of beloved devs who are still with us who faithfully update their products (you missed a bunch, but the list is too long to try and name them all). This list is for the 1st and 2nd category. So not much updating will be needed, unless I'm totally missing something.

The list shall be updated as much as their buggy REs are updated.... ha ha ha
See I think this is where I see a problem stemming from—having it out for certain devs and making the determination that they have "abandoned" their products and who is "beloved" and "faithfully updates" their products.

Some bugs are difficult to fix. Fixing some bugs can introduce new problems, odd behaviors and compatibility issues. Sometimes it's difficult to figure out a good fix. I've been beta testing for so many devs and the bug trackers all have bugs ages old.

My other concern is brushing it off as not being a lot of work once a list is compiled. The list is never done. I think if doing a list, an all-inclusive list including any bug would be best. Again, if you are still leaning towards a list that interprets and declares abandonment, I don't think that would be good. You could still have dates for when they are reported and confirmed, and get whatever side message you want across that way.
what problem? commentary and judgment calls can (and should) easily be left out of the list. “McDSP EQ plugins have an issue where the settings don’t change if knobs are turned too quickly.”

what’s controversial about that? there’s nothing incorrect there, it’s not belittling anyone, and it’s not speculating about whether or not the developer has abandoned the plugin/format.

and why so much hand wringing about maintaining the list? it’s not like there are innumerable bugs cropping up all over the place constantly. they’re few and far between, as far as I can tell. it’s not as if it would need to be updated daily, weekly, or even monthly. a few times a year would probably suffice just fine.

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challism
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Post 22 May 2020

joeyluck wrote:
22 May 2020
See I think this is where I see a problem stemming from—having it out for certain devs and making the determination that they have "abandoned" their products and who is "beloved" and "faithfully updates" their products.
I've already stated that the term abandoned isn't even valid in this discussion. This is about bugs, not about abandoned software. If there are known bugs that aren't fixed, it should be on the list. It's as simple as that.

I don't have it out for any developers. Reason Studios is also beloved. It's my favorite software.
Can we agree that dev who faithfully update their software most likely aren't going to have any products on the list? Seems like that goes without saying.
Some bugs are difficult to fix. Fixing some bugs can introduce new problems, odd behaviors and compatibility issues. Sometimes it's difficult to figure out a good fix. I've been beta testing for so many devs and the bug trackers all have bugs ages old.
Sweet! So you can contribute many bugs to the list!
ha ha, I kid.

OK, bugs can be hard to fix. And money can be hard to earn for some users. Buyers should have information about the most serious bugs.
My other concern is brushing it off as not being a lot of work once a list is compiled. The list is never done. I think if doing a list, an all-inclusive list including any bug would be best. Again, if you are still leaning towards a list that interprets and declares abandonment, I don't think that would be good. You could still have dates for when they are reported and confirmed, and get whatever side message you want across that way.

You are using the word abandoned more than anybody else in this thread. I don't care about abandoned REs. My Sonic Charge REs work great. I love them. Why would they go on this list? Why would Hamu REs go on this list? They wouldn't, as far as I can tell.

I think you are making this out to be way more work than it will be. Once a list is compiled, how often is it really going to need to be updated? How often do we see a bug report come up on RT? And how often do we see them fixed?
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joeyluck
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Post 22 May 2020

guitfnky wrote:
22 May 2020
what problem? commentary and judgment calls can (and should) easily be left out of the list. “McDSP EQ plugins have an issue where the settings don’t change if knobs are turned too quickly.”
challism wrote:
22 May 2020
I've already stated that the term abandoned isn't even valid in this discussion. This is about bugs, not about abandoned software. If there are known bugs that aren't fixed, it should be on the list. It's as simple as that.
;)
challism wrote:
20 May 2020
This first post will act as the master list for all the REs with known bugs that have been abandoned by their developers.
challism wrote:
22 May 2020
This list isn't intended for the 3rd category of beloved devs who are still with us who faithfully update their products (you missed a bunch, but the list is too long to try and name them all). This list is for the 1st and 2nd category. So not much updating will be needed, unless I'm totally missing something.
Do y'all even read what I quote? :lol: :P

If a RE has a bug, a RE has a bug...but according to you in the first post it's only for ones that are interpreted to be abandoned. I'm using the word because there it is in the first post of the thread. Then you say that bugs of REs by our "beloved" devs won't need to be on the list.
challism wrote:
20 May 2020
You are using the word abandoned more than anybody else in this thread. I don't care about abandoned REs. My Sonic Charge REs work great. I love them. Why would they go on this list? Why would Hamu REs go on this list? They wouldn't, as far as I can tell.

I think you are making this out to be way more work than it will be. Once a list is compiled, how often is it really going to need to be updated? How often do we see a bug report come up on RT? And how often do we see them fixed?
Once again, this sounds like you are implying that the list will be short, it won't be all-inclusive, it won't need updates, and it will only be bugs by those developers who you determine to not fix bugs? Or in your words in the first post, "abandoned"? :mrgreen:

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Stygian Abyss
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Post 22 May 2020

I would just like to add that such a bug list could also be useful to users in a more practical way. If a user stumbles on an unexpected behaviour in a RE he owns, he may first consult the list to see if there's a known issue before going back to the manual, asking for help in the forum or create a maybe redundant bug report thread. It may save time to some people, just like the locations list pinned in the general forum does, and I think it's another reason to support Challism's idea.

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