Anybody ever asked for a refund on buggy REs

[MrFigg]

Just out of interest...anybody ever asked Propellerheads to refund their money on REs which are buggy? Apparently there’s a lot which have no prospect of ever being fixed due to devs disappearing into the ether.

[WillyOD]

I'm sure they would just blame the developer.

[MrFigg]

I'm sure they would just blame the developer.

Of course. But if the “product” is “faulty” and you bought it from RS doesn’t the responsibility lie at their door to ensure that you get a “working replacement”?

“” “” “”

[Oquasec]

Actually propellerhead said it's their job to maintain every plugin that gets approved into the shop.
So at that point the original devs wouldn't even be the ones maintaining the plugin.

[joeyluck]

Just out of interest...anybody ever asked Propellerheads to refund their money on REs which are buggy? Apparently there’s a lot which have no prospect of ever being fixed due to devs disappearing into the ether.

Do you have any examples?

[Loque]

Most devs fixed their bugs, so no regret or refund request. I just had a refund request of totally crap RE, but not yet for bugs. Here are a few companies/devs, which doesnt fixed their bugs which i know, but it was pointless to ask for refund - so i just ask for a fix and here are their responses:
* Softube (doesnt care, no dev)
* McDSP (doesnt care)
* Unfiltered Audio (no dev)
* The Chronologist (no response)
* Ochen K. (inactive)
* U-he (inactive)

So in fact they are all inactive and that they did not fixed bugs of their released products, prevents me from byung anything from them in the future. Lesson learned.

[MrFigg]

Just out of interest...anybody ever asked Propellerheads to refund their money on REs which are buggy? Apparently there’s a lot which have no prospect of ever being fixed due to devs disappearing into the ether.

Do you have any examples?

4dyne.



Oh yeah...and the ones Loque mentioned.

[guitfnky]

Actually propellerhead said it's their job to maintain every plugin that gets approved into the shop.
So at that point the original devs wouldn't even be the ones maintaining the plugin.

I have to assume they only maintain compatibility for future Reason version upgrades. they shouldn't be held responsible for shoddy beta testing from the devs in the first place. they (presumably) make sure the REs load and don't crash Reason, but beyond that, they're not there to make sure the third party plugins meet any particular quality standards.

perhaps one of the RE devs who frequent the forum will be kind enough to clarify what RS' role is vs. their role as developers--assuming there's nothing stopping them from doing so due to an NDA or something.

[guitfnky]

I'm sure they would just blame the developer.

Of course. But if the “product” is “faulty” and you bought it from RS doesn’t the responsibility lie at their door to ensure that you get a “working replacement”?

“” “” “”

I would disagree with this, respectfully...the vendor isn't responsible for the third party stuff they sell--they're providing a delivery mechanism for the product, not making the product themselves. it's akin to going to Target and buying a new bicycle that has a design flaw, and asking them to fix the bicycle for you--it's not their fault the bicycle has a design flaw.

but I do agree it would be nice of them to provide a refund. I just don't think they're obligated to do so. that said, I imagine they may have certain internal rules already in place for this sort of thing--e.g. if someone finds a bug and requests a refund within 30 or 60 days of purchase, they give the refund no questions asked, etc. I don't think they can (or even should) offer refunds to those of us who have bought such products and have had them for a long time now--as I have, with the McDSP EQs.

[MrFigg]

Of course. But if the “product” is “faulty” and you bought it from RS doesn’t the responsibility lie at their door to ensure that you get a “working replacement”?

“” “” “”

I would disagree with this, respectfully...the vendor isn't responsible for the third party stuff they sell--they're providing a delivery mechanism for the product, not making the product themselves. it's akin to going to Target and buying a new bicycle that has a design flaw, and asking them to fix the bicycle for you--it's not their fault the bicycle has a design flaw.

but I do agree it would be nice of them to provide a refund. I just don't think they're obligated to do so. that said, I imagine they may have certain internal rules already in place for this sort of thing--e.g. if someone finds a bug and requests a refund within 30 or 60 days of purchase, they give the refund no questions asked, etc. I don't think they can (or even should) offer refunds to those of us who have bought such products and have had them for a long time now--as I have, with the McDSP EQs.

If you bought a bike at Target, as you say, and it was faulty and you went back with it you’d either get a replacement or a refund. Right? I actually don’t know anything about Target .

[joeyluck]

Do you have any examples?

4dyne.

Oh yeah...and the ones Loque mentioned.

I was more interested in what the bugs are.

I would guess that time passed and the severity of the bug would play a factor.

[MrFigg]

4dyne.

Oh yeah...and the ones Loque mentioned.

I was more interested in what the bugs are.

I would guess that time passed and the severity of the bug would play a factor.

Of course.
Personally I was just interested if anyone had actually tried to get a refund due to bugs. Wasn’t really out after starting a discussion about the bugs themselves. I guess there’s threads elsewhere in RT which go into that.

[guitfnky]

I would disagree with this, respectfully...the vendor isn't responsible for the third party stuff they sell--they're providing a delivery mechanism for the product, not making the product themselves. it's akin to going to Target and buying a new bicycle that has a design flaw, and asking them to fix the bicycle for you--it's not their fault the bicycle has a design flaw.

but I do agree it would be nice of them to provide a refund. I just don't think they're obligated to do so. that said, I imagine they may have certain internal rules already in place for this sort of thing--e.g. if someone finds a bug and requests a refund within 30 or 60 days of purchase, they give the refund no questions asked, etc. I don't think they can (or even should) offer refunds to those of us who have bought such products and have had them for a long time now--as I have, with the McDSP EQs.

If you bought a bike at Target, as you say, and it was faulty and you went back with it you’d either get a replacement or a refund. Right? I actually don’t know anything about Target .

yes, it's an imperfect analogy because software is obviously very different than physical goods. but the main thrust of my point is, what's the cutoff? I can't buy that bicycle, notice the design flaw 6 months later and still expect to be able to return it to Target--at that point, any recourse I take should rightly be taken with the manufacturer.

I'm guessing that most of these bugs aren't resulting in totally broken plugins. I can only speak to the McDSP ones, but those are definitely still usable, just imperfect. so it's not a given that people would even know there's a bug for months, or even years, if they ever find out.

[joeyluck]

I was more interested in what the bugs are.

I would guess that time passed and the severity of the bug would play a factor.

Of course.
Personally I was just interested if anyone had actually tried to get a refund due to bugs. Wasn’t really out after starting a discussion about the bugs themselves. I guess there’s threads elsewhere in RT which go into that.

Well my guess is that if it's a crash, then probably. If it's a behavior you don't like and your request for a refund is fairly recent following your purchase, then perhaps. If it's a behavior you don't like or it's more of a quirk from 2012, probably not.

[guitfnky]

4dyne.

Oh yeah...and the ones Loque mentioned.

I was more interested in what the bugs are.

I would guess that time passed and the severity of the bug would play a factor.

they're pretty easy to find with the handy search feature.

[MrFigg]

Of course.
Personally I was just interested if anyone had actually tried to get a refund due to bugs. Wasn’t really out after starting a discussion about the bugs themselves. I guess there’s threads elsewhere in RT which go into that.

Well my guess is that if it's a crash, then probably. If it's a behavior you don't like and your request for a refund is fairly recent following your purchase, then perhaps. If it's a behavior you don't like or it's more of a quirk from 2012, probably not.

Thing is Joey, to look at it another way. You buy an RE...the developers we love are usually pretty fast to fix bugs and do updates. So anyway, there’s a bug there and you figure well of course they’ll fix it but after 6 months they still haven’t. Then after a year they still haven’t. And then their website goes down and they disappear into obscurity with no contact details. What then? Too late!!!

Again though...i was just wondering if anyone had actually done it.

[Loque]

Well my guess is that if it's a crash, then probably. If it's a behavior you don't like and your request for a refund is fairly recent following your purchase, then perhaps. If it's a behavior you don't like or it's more of a quirk from 2012, probably not.

Thing is Joey, to look at it another way. You buy an RE...the developers we love are usually pretty fast to fix bugs and do updates. So anyway, there’s a bug there and you figure well of course they’ll fix it but after 6 months they still haven’t. Then after a year they still haven’t. And then their website goes down and they disappear into obscurity with no contact details. What then? Too late!!!

I guess, even if i understand your point, RS is not responsible for that.

I think they tried to ensure a "living" company and a quite high reliability standard, but as the time has proven, they did not succeeded 100%.

The situation in VST-land is similar or even worse in many cases. Some are still active, while other already had left the boat for whatever reasons. Some fix their bugs quick, while other dont touch a device for years or sell them under different names, with different GUIs, under different companies or just-repack and change slightly a algorithm. Some devices never have reached 64bit or are still working under modern OS...Live goes on.

[MrFigg]

Thing is Joey, to look at it another way. You buy an RE...the developers we love are usually pretty fast to fix bugs and do updates. So anyway, there’s a bug there and you figure well of course they’ll fix it but after 6 months they still haven’t. Then after a year they still haven’t. And then their website goes down and they disappear into obscurity with no contact details. What then? Too late!!!

I guess, even if i understand your point, RS is not responsible for that.

I think they tried to ensure a "living" company and a quite high reliability standard, but as the time has proven, they did not succeeded 100%.

The situation in VST-land is similar or even worse in many cases. Some are still active, while other already had left the boat for whatever reasons. Some fix their bugs quick, while other dont touch a device for years or sell them under different names, with different GUIs, under different companies or just-repack and change slightly a algorithm. Some devices never have reached 64bit or are still working under modern OS...Live goes on.

Yeah Loque. Might be fun to try it though just to see. Now didn’t I read somewhere that RDK had a bug which still hasn’t been fixed since release? I may be wrong about that so don’t quote me. Just have it somewhere in the back of my head. Hmmm. Load the cannons hahahaha.

[Loque]

I guess, even if i understand your point, RS is not responsible for that.

I think they tried to ensure a "living" company and a quite high reliability standard, but as the time has proven, they did not succeeded 100%.

The situation in VST-land is similar or even worse in many cases. Some are still active, while other already had left the boat for whatever reasons. Some fix their bugs quick, while other dont touch a device for years or sell them under different names, with different GUIs, under different companies or just-repack and change slightly a algorithm. Some devices never have reached 64bit or are still working under modern OS...Live goes on.

Yeah Loque. Might be fun to try it though just to see. Now didn’t I read somewhere that RDK had a bug which still hasn’t been fixed since release? I may be wrong about that so don’t quote me. Just have it somewhere in the back of my head. Hmmm. Load the cannons hahahaha.

Well, maybe i should rethink of my own statements and thinking...there are also Bugs in Reason which never had been fixed for years now. The last one that again anoyed me was, that the number in tooltips and automation do not relfect accurate the real values. You have somethink like 0.00 and in real ( ) it is 0.0049999 You can enter this value, it has an effect, but it is not visible.

[DaveyG]

I got a refund from the Apple store for an iPad music app that was buggy. The weird thing is that it is still in my Apple account and is still installed on my iPad but I can't update it. I'm quite tolerant of less-than-perfect cheap apps but this boasted of MIDI sync when it just can't do it. The developer was very rude to me so ***cks to him. I'll never use the app but ima gonna keep it on my iPad forever. That'll teach him.

[Oquasec]

One of the developers basically died 2 years ago (Hamu) so he's not gonna be doing that anytime soon.
Which is a good idea because Propeller-head's policies work perfectly with how that is handled

[Boombastix]

The consumer is protected by Swedish consumer law, and in it, it says the seller is responsible for a faulty product.

Whatever RS puts in their fine print may be overridden by this consumer law as it is quite strong.

Thus making examples using US consumer law is pretty senseless as that is not the same thing.

I'm sure this is a tricky case as RS do not access the 3rd party code, but on the other hand they keep selling buggy software after they have been made aware. So it is on them for not removing them from the shop.

You can try to bring a case and see where it leads. I'm compelled doing it for the lack of VST midi out when they sold a program that could use all yours VSTs. I also think a case should include a demand to make the product bug free without forcing a paid update. There are a few too many annoying bugs in 10.4 in my opinion. But we know RS abandons the old version with all the bugs as soon as they release a new version. Maybe v10 took a bigger bug hit than ever before as they did the big engine rewrite to fix the old buffer size mistake.

[DJMaytag]

Maybe this is a bit extreme, but is there any way RS could implement something to prevent abandonware RE’s, such that if no development was continued after X number of years (though dev death could have different rules), that the RE’s would be given away for free and/or the source code would be turned over to RS to maintain?

I think VST to RE porting is pretty much over now, so that shouldn’t be an issue moving forward, but old ports shouldn’t be covered (Softube, Korg, & uHe come to mind), but hopefully new tools/synths would have some motivation to keep maintaining their devices.

Maybe it’s nuts, but there really ought to be some way for developers to keep their designs going for future generations. I bought my first VST in 2001, and that dev is looking to be on the verge of shutting down.

[DaveyG]

It's a bit off that some of the REs still for sale no longer have a manual. A recent thread on here was an appeal for such a manual. RS are currently selling stuff without instruction manuals.

[Loque]

Maybe this is a bit extreme, but is there any way RS could implement something to prevent abandonware RE’s, such that if no development was continued after X number of years (though dev death could have different rules), that the RE’s would be given away for free and/or the source code would be turned over to RS to maintain?

I think VST to RE porting is pretty much over now, so that shouldn’t be an issue moving forward, but old ports shouldn’t be covered (Softube, Korg, & uHe come to mind), but hopefully new tools/synths would have some motivation to keep maintaining their devices.

Maybe it’s nuts, but there really ought to be some way for developers to keep their designs going for future generations. I bought my first VST in 2001, and that dev is looking to be on the verge of shutting down.

Yes, thats a bit extreme. Its like you ask your car dealer to still maintain and sell cars from a bankrupt company, and that on top for free.

On the other hand that open source thing could be something...If a dev gave up, make the stuff open source and someone else can fix your damn bugs!