Jiggery-Pokery generative “Project C”

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MrFigg
Posts: 4596
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 26 Apr 2020

I was hunting about for any JP news seeing as he hasn’t been here for a while. I found this:



https://m.facebook.com/JiggeryPokerySound/

I don’t have a FB account so can’t read the whole thing but was this common knowledge? It’s the first I’d heard of it. Fractals...reminiscent of Landscapes in Props latest best thing. The bit I could read mentioned that he suspected Props might be working on a similar RE of their own.

Edit: here’s the quote from FB. If it’s true it’s pretty tragic.

“One of my beta testers asked me yesterday whatever happened to our generative music device "Project C" that I started working on late 2016.

It did get abandoned around 18 months ago, due to a couple of technical issues and one UI issue, that despite multiple emails, Propellerhead point blank refused to help us resolve (admittedly they might have required Reason updates, but hell, we've had two Reason upgrades since we first asked so that's no excuse, frankly). A few months later I wondered if the reason for their refusal was them working on their own (given this is one of the problems of RE development: we can't know what they are working on until it launches, but by dint of having to develop via builds on their server, they ALWAYS know everything being worked on once a dev does any kind of preliminary server build of a new device, so this is another way they have a competitive advantage to undermine us, and can pick, choose and appropriate ideas from products being developed by third parties).

The short story is back in early March 2018 I was told by MHG that I was "hostile" for even asking for folded views in Players, I begged, pleaded to put it back in, that shouldn't even have been removed in the first place and explained in probably too much detail why it was needed. And FWIW, subsequently everyone else agreed with our position, but he just doubled down on his decision when I was demonstrated correct, as publicly indicated here (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7512772&p=452745&hi ... ed#p452745), but similar appeared on the dev forums too), rather than admit another error of judgement.

So, here's a little demo of what was lost. ScuzzyEye did a fucking great job on it given the technical limitations of the Reason graphic formats, and I'm still deeply saddened and upset by MHG's attitude and all our work being wasted. So here you go, a proper polyphonic fractal music generator, not the simple random note spitter PH eventually spat out, running in Reason. "We know what Reason users want" Mattias wrote to me, as if that's an explanation for not helping devs, it meaning you get what you think you want based on the narrow choices they offer you, not what you deserve or can be imagined by you or anyone else.

:(

Still, here's a taster what you could have won. That's a wrap.”
丰2ॐ

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Loque
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Post 26 Apr 2020

I think the problem is, that you are not allowed to use images as sound source or something like that. Maybe thats why we never saw a image->sound device yet. But i might be wrong.

JP was one of the devs critiszing PH for lots of lack in the RE SDK. Other devs and big names did that too, maybe less harsh and just left the platform years ago. Maybe JP did it now, but i have no proven info - so its just speculation. Hope he is doing well and will release cool new stuff in the future and i hope RS will listen more to the still available devs and customers.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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MrFigg
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Post 26 Apr 2020

Loque wrote:
26 Apr 2020
I think the problem is, that you are not allowed to use images as sound source or something like that. Maybe thats why we never saw a image->sound device yet. But i might be wrong.

JP was one of the devs critiszing PH for lots of lack in the RE SDK. Other devs and big names did that too, maybe less harsh and just left the platform years ago. Maybe JP did it now, but i have no proven info - so its just speculation. Hope he is doing well and will release cool new stuff in the future and i hope RS will listen more to the still available devs and customers.
I was reminded about how it looked like they fucked Robotic Bean over with the Sequences thing. Now I don’t know the ins and outs but...well.
丰2ॐ

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selig
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Post 26 Apr 2020

FWIW, and I'm not complaining, I started developing a Player called PolyStep when players were introduced. It ended up taking too long and I pushed out Note View instead. You can probably guess what the PolyStep Player did, as I'm not the only one to want a poly step sequencer, but do I think my idea was "stolen" by the Props? Hell no, I'm far from the only person thinking of a poly step sequencer (and the name was far from original too).
Now I DID have some cool features still missing from the other options, but I have since turned to other pursuits.
But I'll also add that even though the Props released PolyStep, the market still supported another poly step sequencer - so I'm still considering what I could do to differentiate my product from others, but again I still have far too many ideas in the pipeline to get bent out of shape if someone else beats me to market on one of them. My poly step sequencer wasn't ground braking, so it's no wonder there are other similar products. That's why I try to stick to things others don't tend to think of!
And do I have complaints about the progress of the SDK and Reason from time to time? Again, hell yes, but I try my best to be thoughtful and present a well reasoned argument about why I need such features. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. :)
TL/DR: I don't think there is anything nefarious going on here in any of the cases mentioned, just some bad timing. This is not the first time someone beat me to market with a similar product forcing me to change my plans, that's how business goes. Carry on. :)
Selig Audio, LLC

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MrFigg
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Post 26 Apr 2020

Well, either way, the JP thing looked really cool. Would’ve liked to see the end result.
丰2ॐ

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orthodox
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Post 26 Apr 2020

I couldn't get it, did he talk about that Mandelbrot display thing? It's pretty easy to implement, but it indeed suffers from poor graphics primitives of the RE SDK. Things I miss the most are storing of graphics states between display updates and drawing prepared images or image files on a display.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

Rackman
Posts: 89
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 26 Apr 2020

That's really sad to read. Another quality developer exits stage right.

I think the beginning of Reason's downward spiral began when MHG became product manager, so this comes as no surprise.
MrFigg wrote:
26 Apr 2020
I was hunting about for any JP news seeing as he hasn’t been here for a while. I found this:



https://m.facebook.com/JiggeryPokerySound/

I don’t have a FB account so can’t read the whole thing but was this common knowledge? It’s the first I’d heard of it. Fractals...reminiscent of Landscapes in Props latest best thing. The bit I could read mentioned that he suspected Props might be working on a similar RE of their own.

Edit: here’s the quote from FB. If it’s true it’s pretty tragic.

“One of my beta testers asked me yesterday whatever happened to our generative music device "Project C" that I started working on late 2016.

It did get abandoned around 18 months ago, due to a couple of technical issues and one UI issue, that despite multiple emails, Propellerhead point blank refused to help us resolve (admittedly they might have required Reason updates, but hell, we've had two Reason upgrades since we first asked so that's no excuse, frankly). A few months later I wondered if the reason for their refusal was them working on their own (given this is one of the problems of RE development: we can't know what they are working on until it launches, but by dint of having to develop via builds on their server, they ALWAYS know everything being worked on once a dev does any kind of preliminary server build of a new device, so this is another way they have a competitive advantage to undermine us, and can pick, choose and appropriate ideas from products being developed by third parties).

The short story is back in early March 2018 I was told by MHG that I was "hostile" for even asking for folded views in Players, I begged, pleaded to put it back in, that shouldn't even have been removed in the first place and explained in probably too much detail why it was needed. And FWIW, subsequently everyone else agreed with our position, but he just doubled down on his decision when I was demonstrated correct, as publicly indicated here (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7512772&p=452745&hi ... ed#p452745), but similar appeared on the dev forums too), rather than admit another error of judgement.

So, here's a little demo of what was lost. ScuzzyEye did a fucking great job on it given the technical limitations of the Reason graphic formats, and I'm still deeply saddened and upset by MHG's attitude and all our work being wasted. So here you go, a proper polyphonic fractal music generator, not the simple random note spitter PH eventually spat out, running in Reason. "We know what Reason users want" Mattias wrote to me, as if that's an explanation for not helping devs, it meaning you get what you think you want based on the narrow choices they offer you, not what you deserve or can be imagined by you or anyone else.

:(

Still, here's a taster what you could have won. That's a wrap.”

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eusti
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Post 26 Apr 2020

Loque wrote:
26 Apr 2020
I think the problem is, that you are not allowed to use images as sound source or something like that. Maybe thats why we never saw a image->sound device yet. But i might be wrong.
Don't we have that in Beat Map now, more or less?

D.

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Loque
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Post 26 Apr 2020

eusti wrote:
26 Apr 2020
Loque wrote:
26 Apr 2020
I think the problem is, that you are not allowed to use images as sound source or something like that. Maybe thats why we never saw a image->sound device yet. But i might be wrong.
Don't we have that in Beat Map now, more or less?

D.
Yea, i thought about that too while i wrote this. I dont know all details of the SDK in the past. Mayb the problem is, that you maybe cannot "load" images (jpg, gif, png, ...) instead of just waves. The RE dont have control over file loading.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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challism
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Post 26 Apr 2020

Crap. I got all excited when I read the title of this thread. I thought it was one of those "in the shop" threads. :( Now I'm sad.

Man, this player would have been the bee's knees. Too bad. I love me some Mandelbrot set fractals and Fibonacci sequences. I also miss seeing new JP products. I wonder what the name for this device was going to be: maybe EyeOfGawd? I wonder why JP doesn't release it as a VST?

On a side note, I agree with Matt about the folding of players. It's really dumb that players are the only devices in the rack that can't fold. I don't think I will ever understand the thought process to lead to such a decision. I'm always irritated that I can't fold individual players in my enormous player stacks. Derp! I hope they fix this soon (or at least someday).
Reason 2.5, Windows 95, 4MB RAM, 133Mhz CPU, integrated audio 14.4k dial-up modem

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dvdrtldg
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Post 26 Apr 2020

Rackman wrote:
26 Apr 2020
Reason's downward spiral
*facepalm*

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challism
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Post 26 Apr 2020

selig wrote: I try to stick to things others don't tend to think of!
Why didn't i think of that?
Reason 2.5, Windows 95, 4MB RAM, 133Mhz CPU, integrated audio 14.4k dial-up modem

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Rackman
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Post 27 Apr 2020

dvdrtldg wrote:
26 Apr 2020
Rackman wrote:
26 Apr 2020
Reason's downward spiral
*facepalm*
You think an ecosystem where almost every RE developer leaves due to limitations of format, size of market or attitude of RS can be considered healthy?

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Loque
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Post 27 Apr 2020

Rackman wrote:
27 Apr 2020
dvdrtldg wrote:
26 Apr 2020


*facepalm*
You think an ecosystem where almost every RE developer leaves due to limitations of format, size of market or attitude of RS can be considered healthy?
Its funny...as soon as a few ppl talk about the "downard spiral", some new RE are released or updated... ;)

Keep calm and stay on the thread topic.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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selig
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Post 27 Apr 2020

Rackman wrote:
27 Apr 2020
dvdrtldg wrote:
26 Apr 2020


*facepalm*
You think an ecosystem where almost every RE developer leaves due to limitations of format, size of market or attitude of RS can be considered healthy?
My experience:
There are far fewer "limitations of format" today than when REs were introduced, the market has only grown since REs were introduced, and I've not experienced any negative swing in the attitude of RS over this time period.

It may be safe to say there was an artificially inflated participation rate in the beginning as the new format was launched, and that the natural amount of attrition has occurred due to the realities of the closed system and small market that existed from the start. I'm not sure what anyone expected when a small company who had created a closed system then introduced an exclusive plugin format. I personally never expected REs to become anything more than what they have become - a way to for third parties to add Reason-centric devices to the rack. Though I also cannot prove my statement, maybe those who left had far different expectations than I did?

And FWIW, though things have slowed for Selig Audio due to the current conditions, I'm still actively developing new REs and have a large backlog of product ideas I still hope to get to market. :)
Selig Audio, LLC

fretshot7
Posts: 454
Joined: 02 Apr 2018

Post 27 Apr 2020

RS admitted they got a surprise when Complex-1 was absolutely trounced by Europa in an Instagram survey.
So they are trying to understand their user base at least.

As for developers leaving the platform. I've worked in IT all my life, mostly development of some kind and you really do come across some obnoxious ( all be it very clever ) gits, im not saying anyone mentioned is like this cos i have no idea, but if they are they are better off out of the Ecosystem anyway, and I am sure in the long run all concerned parties benefit from there departure.

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joeyluck
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Post 27 Apr 2020

I didn't realize my request for folded views was referenced in that post.

I think at least having generic folded views for each player would be fine.

But if not, I wonder if they'd entertain the idea of a 'select view' feature. For instance, you'd be presented with a dropdown menu, and the default (as it is now) would be 'view all'. And alternatively, you can select from that dropdown which player to view, individually. Think of it like a 'jump-to' feature with everything else hidden. Would that help workflow and screen real estate? Would that be easier to implement than generic folded views for all players?

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Catblack
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Post 27 Apr 2020

eusti wrote:
26 Apr 2020
Loque wrote:
26 Apr 2020
I think the problem is, that you are not allowed to use images as sound source or something like that. Maybe thats why we never saw a image->sound device yet. But i might be wrong.
Don't we have that in Beat Map now, more or less?

D.
Less for sure.

Beat Map's terrain image has no effect on what's generated, other than to show you x and y in the hidden algorithm they've created.
If you ain't hip to the rare Housequake, shut up already.

Damn.

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dvdrtldg
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Post 27 Apr 2020

Rackman wrote:
27 Apr 2020
dvdrtldg wrote:
26 Apr 2020


*facepalm*
You think an ecosystem where almost every RE developer leaves due to limitations of format, size of market or attitude of RS can be considered healthy?
I started with Reason 4 in 2010, got onto the Propellerhead User Forum and was surprised to find people enthusiastically predicting the end of the company. A decade later, I'm not surprised any more. You don't like things about their business model or whatever, fine. Me too. But what seems like a negative for you or me could be a huge positive for other users. "Thing I don't like" doesn't mean "Evidence that the company is tanking"

Rackman
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Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 28 Apr 2020

dvdrtldg wrote:
27 Apr 2020
Rackman wrote:
27 Apr 2020


You think an ecosystem where almost every RE developer leaves due to limitations of format, size of market or attitude of RS can be considered healthy?
I started with Reason 4 in 2010, got onto the Propellerhead User Forum and was surprised to find people enthusiastically predicting the end of the company. A decade later, I'm not surprised any more. You don't like things about their business model or whatever, fine. Me too. But what seems like a negative for you or me could be a huge positive for other users. "Thing I don't like" doesn't mean "Evidence that the company is tanking"
I'm not sure where I said that I didn't like anything and I'm struggling to see how RS driving away developers is good for anyone.

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sublunar
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Post 28 Apr 2020

Oh wow that sucks. JP was one of the best for sure.

More and more, I'm considering leaving Reason unless v12 blows my mind and they do everything they should have done years ago.

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selig
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Post 28 Apr 2020

Rackman wrote:
28 Apr 2020
I'm not sure where I said that I didn't like anything and I'm struggling to see how RS driving away developers is good for anyone.
I would suggest that you first need to prove RS is "driving away developers", then maybe we could talk about whether or not it's a good thing.
Some original developers are not developing now, some new developers are now developing. That's the natural ebb and flow of things IMO.
Selig Audio, LLC

Rackman
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Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 29 Apr 2020

I think it's pretty clear looking at the shop. Almost every RE developer has abandoned the platform or has gone into maintenance mode. Other than a few solid developers (yourself included) who have hung in there, it's pretty barren, and virtually the only thing of interest getting developed now are players.
selig wrote:
28 Apr 2020
Rackman wrote:
28 Apr 2020
I'm not sure where I said that I didn't like anything and I'm struggling to see how RS driving away developers is good for anyone.
I would suggest that you first need to prove RS is "driving away developers", then maybe we could talk about whether or not it's a good thing.
Some original developers are not developing now, some new developers are now developing. That's the natural ebb and flow of things IMO.

Sterioevo
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Post 29 Apr 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Apr 2020
I think it's pretty clear looking at the shop. Almost every RE developer has abandoned the platform or has gone into maintenance mode. Other than a few solid developers (yourself included) who have hung in there, it's pretty barren, and virtually the only thing of interest getting developed now are players.
There is a lot of subjective generalisations in this and other comments.
Business can be brutal, no doubt about it. Could be sour grapes in relation to JP I don't know?

This is getting off topic I know but this thread is highly speculative so, in your opinion, broadly speaking, what is of interest being developed now?

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buddard
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Post 29 Apr 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Apr 2020
I think it's pretty clear looking at the shop. Almost every RE developer has abandoned the platform or has gone into maintenance mode. Other than a few solid developers (yourself included) who have hung in there, it's pretty barren, and virtually the only thing of interest getting developed now are players.
I think it's also a matter of the shop starting to get saturated, especially if you consider the relatively small market for REs vs VST/AU.
Players is still a "new frontier" in that sense, although we're starting to see a lot of ground being covered there as well.

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