No more NDA!

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
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Proboscis
Posts: 584
Joined: 28 Aug 2019

Post 29 Jan 2020

EnochLight wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Very minor additions?! Are you serious? Let's recount the last two major versions:
The update from 10 to 11 was lackluster enough for me to barely even contemplate buying in. And if you look at the "will/did you upgrade" poll, and compare it to a similar poll from 9>10, I'm far from alone in thinking this. Anyway, that topic has been discussed to death already, so moving right along......

Rackman
Posts: 42
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 30 Jan 2020

Interesting. So do you think this is a move to try and reinvigorate a dying ecosystem by lowering the bar to entry?
orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I guess it will depend on whether this is a single step or the beginning of open sourcing the SDK. I appreciate it doesn't change anything right now, but it's interesting to speculate as to why they've made this move none the less.
The SDK is a public interface to the Reason core. It cannot be 'opensourced' since it does not contain any code. There is just nothing else that could be done in that direction other than putting up the Reason source code on Github.

Yonatan
Posts: 1074
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 30 Jan 2020

I guess we will soon understand this move.

Is this in any way meeting the Max for Live? A way to bring in some Refill-making philosophy into RE making?

As long as RS has the platform through which all RE:s pass, it would make sense to open up more for collaborations?

I mean, the whole idea with Rack plugin in the long run is to have a living RE market and community...if that ceases, the plugin will not be prosperous.

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SebAudio
Posts: 83
Joined: 08 Mar 2015

Post 30 Jan 2020

Now that the rack is a VST, REs are VST. So there is a new way to develop VST : using the RE framework. There are some available frameworks : steinberg’s, juce, iPlug, … now there is RE. And it should be freely available as the other.
Since it’s coming with a marketplace. It can be appealing to some devs

Yonatan
Posts: 1074
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 30 Jan 2020

SebAudio wrote:
30 Jan 2020
Now that the rack is a VST, REs are VST. So there is a new way to develop VST : using the RE framework. There are some available frameworks : steinberg’s, juce, iPlug, … now there is RE. And it should be freely available as the other.
Since it’s coming with a marketplace. It can be appealing to some devs
Guess we will sooner or later see a free empty Rack (maybe with one or two bonus RE or Reason devices to get more folks to register a free account being one step closer to buying other REs later on while being on RS mailing list of offerings. All those empty rack ppl will then be able to buy pack or bundles and Reason content, with or without Reason standalone.

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artotaku
Posts: 485
Joined: 09 May 2015
Location: Munich, Germany

Post 30 Jan 2020

buddard wrote:
29 Jan 2020
electrofux wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Oki,

reading and reading. Already found some interesting things concerning me an my Remote/StepSequencer mania. There is no limit of remotable items which makes me wonder why many devices are not complete in that area, given that it seems to be straight forward assingning a remote item to a motherboard property. I assume there are some pitfalls though.
But there has allways been reluctance to implement the steps of sequencer devices as remotable especially when patterns were involved and the number of items would become big. I am wondering if a high number of remotable properties (eg 5000) would affect performance.
It’s because the motherboard is limited to 1024 properties, and those slots fill up fast if you implement a multi pattern device. For Step, I chose to forego multiple pattern support in favor of maximizing Remote and automation support.

For Sequences, we definitely wanted multiple patterns, so we decided to encode the pattern data into long string properties, which of course makes Remote/automation support impossible.

But there’s also a usability aspect to this, since each parameter+pattern combination would have to have separate Remote objects. So you couldn’t for example toggle mute on step 3 in two different patterns using the same button without a really advanced Remote codec.
Redrum can do this, but it’s not an RE and doesn’t adhere to the same limitations.
I think there may be way to improve remote support for pattern based players/devices that are mostly custom display based. For the custom display use string properties as described above. For the remote codec it may be sufficient to use runtime properties that are the "view" subset of the string properties because a midi controller can only show e. g. one pattern or a certain step length at once. The thing is that midi controller typically has much fewer elements it can display (LED buttons etc) and does not need to know about the persistent state. We also have to take into account that remote codec input/output properties cannot be string properties. There is a restriction when you try to use them in the codec. So you can only use number properties.

This is how I do it with a RE I´m working on currently. So big document owner string properties that are modified by the custom display but runtime number properties to pass the state to the remote codec. The runtime (C++ part) supplies the remote codec with the necessary state it needs.

I think it would have been completely possible to make e. g. ReasonStudios Dual Arp fullly remotable for e. g. Launchpad like controllers.
But it is increased development effort since you have provide a specific Remote codec that works for midi controllers by different brands.
Last edited by artotaku on 30 Jan 2020, edited 1 time in total.

electrofux
Posts: 674
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

Post 30 Jan 2020

artotaku wrote:
30 Jan 2020
buddard wrote:
29 Jan 2020


It’s because the motherboard is limited to 1024 properties, and those slots fill up fast if you implement a multi pattern device. For Step, I chose to forego multiple pattern support in favor of maximizing Remote and automation support.

For Sequences, we definitely wanted multiple patterns, so we decided to encode the pattern data into long string properties, which of course makes Remote/automation support impossible.

But there’s also a usability aspect to this, since each parameter+pattern combination would have to have separate Remote objects. So you couldn’t for example toggle mute on step 3 in two different patterns using the same button without a really advanced Remote codec.
Redrum can do this, but it’s not an RE and doesn’t adhere to the same limitations.
I think there may be way around to better support remote. For the custom display use string properties as described above. For the remote codec it may be sufficient to use runtime properties that are the "view" subset of the string properties because a midi controller can only show e. g. one pattern at once. The thing is that midi controller typically has much fewer elements it can display (LED buttons etc) and does not need to know about the persistent state. We also have to take into account that remote codec input/output properties cannot be string properties. There is a restriction when you try to use them in the codec. So you can only use number properties.

This is how I do it with a RE I´m working on currently. So big document owner string properties that are modified by the custom display but runtime number properties to pass the state to the remote codec. The runtime (C++ part) supplies the remote codec with the necessary state it needs.
Ok, 1024 on the motherboard, thats not alot and explains it. Btw StepNote is my most loved device in the Rack- best sequencer on the market anywhere imho. Just wish props had given REs the same pattern support as Redrum.

@Artotaku: I might come back to you on this once i am more into the SDK and started something basic. Need to find a way to get around the limitiation. Btw codec complexity is not an issue as long as you can keep track of your arrays and it doesnt affect performance aswell. I have a codec running 4k+ items and there is no issue at all.

I also havent fully understood how Retouch managed to remote control 32 step patterns and 16 patterns with 64 remote items. They went a total different route.

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pongasoft
Posts: 202
Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Location: Las Vegas

Post 30 Jan 2020

EnochLight wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Talking about it publicly, sharing any/all information publicly, having free and easy access to other devs sharing tips publicly, etc.
As far as I am concerned, I have already said it (and I was a big advocate about it), I think this is the best move for Reason Studios. For non dev it may not seem like a big deal but it is. The fact that we can now share things publicly, that people can create tutorial, tools, etc... was not possible before. Look at the VST ecosystem... There are frameworks around it, example of plugins all over github, etc..

So it is obvious that this move is to attract more developers. I do believe though that in order to really succeed, Reason Studios will also have to release a plugin rack for free. It is going to be a very tough position to tell developers, please use our SDK to build a plugin that will require a minimum purchase of $99 in order for any plugin to run. They could make a free version of the rack which contains none of the devices that comes built-in when you buy any version of Reason. Just the bare minimum...

If they do, then you get a true alternative to building a VST or AU or whatever else plugin... using the RE SDK and you get DRM/Shop support without having to worry about it.

Yan

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Koshdukai
Posts: 233
Joined: 02 Jun 2015

Post 30 Jan 2020

Now it's possible to publicly share things like this without breaking the NDA:

https://github.com/fredwillmore/SI2/blo ... README.txt

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1378
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

Post 30 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
What's really surprising is where does this leave Propellerhead? They have all but abandoned the DAW aspect over recent releases, and are now giving away the RE SDK. What is their long game? Put all development into the plugin?
Publishing is not giving away, it does not change anyhing really. This is just a PR occasion to invite more developers. The long game is to (slowly) develop both the DAW and the Plugin (they are connected, after all). Btw, there is not much to be done about the Plugin.
lol exactly right.

the reason rack VST is what it is.
its pretty much complete, the only things to add besides midi out is some kind of easy way of keyboard splitting.

i feel like there should be a toggle for key splits depending on which outputs you use.

it could work like how the combinator handles key splits.
sure you could use a combinator. but you don't always want to program the darn thing. idk maybe I'm crazy?
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1378
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

Post 30 Jan 2020

EnochLight wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Come on. Are you serious? They have done next to nothing of significance over the last two major versions. Just very minor additions.
Very minor additions?! Are you serious? Let's recount the last two major versions:

Reason 10
  • Five new instruments added to the rack, and two previously paid-for REs now built-in
  • New Loop Supply and Drum Supply content
  • Devices can now be added to favorite lists
  • Europa sample/wavetable loading
  • Added Multi Lane Edit, for viewing and editing MIDI across multiple lanes and tracks at once
  • Adjust faders, solo and mute across multiple mix channels at once
  • A new snap setting, Grid, will adapt the resolution to zoom level
  • Double click a sequencer track to open the rack and scroll to its device
  • New +Add Device and +Add Track buttons in rack and sequencer
  • New context menu item, Route to New Mix Channel, on audio outputs
  • Easy MIDI Inputs automatically detects MIDI controllers when connected
  • New setting in Reason’s preferences for returning the play cursor to its last start position when stopping playback in main sequencer
  • Improved track selection behavior in sequencer track list to match the behavior of devices in the Rack and Clips
  • Improved looping behavior in Dual Arpeggio
  • Performance improvements
  • Added Monotone Bass Synthesizer, a new bass synth device that's cross-compatible with Reason Compact
  • Added Rytmik Drum Machine, a new drum device that's cross-compatible with Reason Compact
Reason 11
  • Reason now includes Reason Rack Plugin, a plugin version of the Reason Rack
  • Added new device: Sweeper Modulation Effect
  • Added new device: Quartet Chorus Ensemble
  • Added new device: Master Bus Compressor
  • Added new device: Channel Dynamics
  • Added new device: Channel EQ
  • Curve automation lines between two automation points
  • Crossfade between two overlapping audio clips
  • Improved zoom, including individual track height, improved Zoom to Selection (Z) and increased zoom height
  • Mute MIDI notes using the Mute Tool or pressing M
  • New Pencil Tool mode to draw notes at current snap value
  • Absolute Snap, a new snap setting where events always snap to the grid
  • Improved key visualization in Edit Mode, showing both the notes played via MIDI and the notes selected
  • Shortcut for moving notes up or down an octave
  • cmd+shift+up/down (Mac) or ctrl+shift+up/down (Win)
  • Draw an automation point on the existing automation line by holding Shift
I've bolded items which clearly benefit Reason standalone DAW users. Reason 11 has hardly been out 4-5 months, and already it has a lot of improvements that are aimed at the standalone DAW portion. Do we want more? Well hell yes - but suggesting they've abandoned the DAW aspect the past couple of versions is simply not true. Disingenuous, at best.

people who are saying that the props are abandoning the reason daw, are the same people saying that the cowboy and connor fight was a work.

change my mind :lol:
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

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QVprod
Posts: 2391
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 30 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Yeah. I think this is effectively the beginning of Propellerhead washing their hands of REs. Hopefully there is enough interest from developers to pick it up and keep it going. Guess the problem with the idea of open sourcing it is that the DAW comes at a not insignificant cost. So even if the RE SDK was OS, only owners of a proprietary and expensive product could use them.
Quite the opposite. Being a developer does not give you a full version of Reason and the SDK never had a cost to obtain, They only ever made money off sales. This would (hopefully) inspire more products and therefore more sales. Making it public simply makes it more easily accessible to the tech folk who may want to give it a try. A lot of small developers have been able to make noise in VST land, as well as with Reaktor ensembles and VCV Rack. The hope would be that the same kind of tinkering curiosity happens here. If successful, it would give a significant boost for RE.

Rackman
Posts: 42
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 30 Jan 2020

I don't think the comparison with VCV Rack is a good one, because there is zero barrier for entry there. There is no way this will pull the same kind of interest from developers so long as the plugin is so expensive. However if they did the clever thing and released a free (empty) plugin, this could be big news. I hope this is a sign that that is coming.
QVprod wrote:
30 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Yeah. I think this is effectively the beginning of Propellerhead washing their hands of REs. Hopefully there is enough interest from developers to pick it up and keep it going. Guess the problem with the idea of open sourcing it is that the DAW comes at a not insignificant cost. So even if the RE SDK was OS, only owners of a proprietary and expensive product could use them.
Quite the opposite. Being a developer does not give you a full version of Reason and the SDK never had a cost to obtain, They only ever made money off sales. This would (hopefully) inspire more products and therefore more sales. Making it public simply makes it more easily accessible to the tech folk who may want to give it a try. A lot of small developers have been able to make noise in VST land, as well as with Reaktor ensembles and VCV Rack. The hope would be that the same kind of tinkering curiosity happens here. If successful, it would give a significant boost for RE.

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Enlightenspeed
Posts: 360
Joined: 03 Jan 2019

Post 30 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I don't think the comparison with VCV Rack is a good one, because there is zero barrier for entry there.
Opening up a company is hardly a barrier to entry in most countries. In the kind of places where it is, you would probably struggle to get hold of the prerequisite computer hardware anyway.
Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
There is no way this will pull the same kind of interest from developers so long as the plugin is so expensive.
How are Reaktor and Kontakt getting on, in this regard?
When did the first free, or cheap VST compatible host come out that you could test with?
Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
However, if they did the clever thing and released a free (empty) plugin, this could be big news. I hope this is a sign that that is coming.
I partially agree, but there is no necessity for this; it really depends on Propellerheads motives and other plans long term.

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EnochLight
Posts: 6067
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: your mom

Post 30 Jan 2020

Proboscis wrote:
29 Jan 2020
The update from 10 to 11 was lackluster enough for me to barely even contemplate buying in. And if you look at the "will/did you upgrade" poll, and compare it to a similar poll from 9>10, I'm far from alone in thinking this.
Indeed, and - in fact - I largely agree. But saying there were few standalone DAW improvements (in both 10 and 11) is simply not true. In fact, aside from content - all the new features in 10 were all standalone DAW improvements, and aside from the Reason Rack Plugin in 11, all the new features in 11 were all standalone DAW improvements.

From that alone, it doesn't seem like Reason as a standalone DAW is being abandoned. That said, only time will tell...
Win 10 | Reason 11 |  Studio One 4.5 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Nektar Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live | Roland System 8 and System 1 | Roland TR-8 with 7x7 Expansion | Roland TB-3 | Roland VT-4 | Roland MX-1

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kuhliloach
Posts: 672
Joined: 09 Dec 2015

Post 30 Jan 2020

ForgottenClank wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I think this would be a great opportunity for us devs to make some tutorials. When I started out, I found the whole SDK a bit overwhelming and I didn't understand why there had to be so many different parts.
I want your tutorials!

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fieldframe
Posts: 727
Joined: 19 Apr 2016

Post 30 Jan 2020

pongasoft wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I do believe though that in order to really succeed, Reason Studios will also have to release a plugin rack for free. It is going to be a very tough position to tell developers, please use our SDK to build a plugin that will require a minimum purchase of $99 in order for any plugin to run. They could make a free version of the rack which contains none of the devices that comes built-in when you buy any version of Reason. Just the bare minimum...

If they do, then you get a true alternative to building a VST or AU or whatever else plugin... using the RE SDK and you get DRM/Shop support without having to worry about it.
I hope they don’t wait as long to do this as they waited to make the SDK public.

There is basically zero downside to offering a free empty rack VST. Honestly, it would be a bit of an olive branch to developers like Blamsoft, who would now have a second chance to sell something like Expanse to a wider audience after getting Sherlocked by Europa.
Welcome to TEST FIXTURE

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1378
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

Post 30 Jan 2020

fieldframe wrote:
30 Jan 2020
pongasoft wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I do believe though that in order to really succeed, Reason Studios will also have to release a plugin rack for free. It is going to be a very tough position to tell developers, please use our SDK to build a plugin that will require a minimum purchase of $99 in order for any plugin to run. They could make a free version of the rack which contains none of the devices that comes built-in when you buy any version of Reason. Just the bare minimum...

If they do, then you get a true alternative to building a VST or AU or whatever else plugin... using the RE SDK and you get DRM/Shop support without having to worry about it.
I hope they don’t wait as long to do this as they waited to make the SDK public.

There is basically zero downside to offering a free empty rack VST. Honestly, it would be a bit of an olive branch to developers like Blamsoft, who would now have a second chance to sell something like Expanse to a wider audience after getting Sherlocked by Europa.
I don’t believe $99 is the lowest entry

Pretty sure they still do the $9 deal with the app

Giving you a copy of Reason lite
Or the reward points
But in order to get the copy you need to register a new email

If you don’t have any apple products, then minimum entry is iPad+$10
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

Rackman
Posts: 42
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 30 Jan 2020

I meant having to buy the plugin. VCV is free. Reason is not.
Enlightenspeed wrote:
30 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I don't think the comparison with VCV Rack is a good one, because there is zero barrier for entry there.
Opening up a company is hardly a barrier to entry in most countries. In the kind of places where it is, you would probably struggle to get hold of the prerequisite computer hardware anyway.
Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
There is no way this will pull the same kind of interest from developers so long as the plugin is so expensive.
How are Reaktor and Kontakt getting on, in this regard?
When did the first free, or cheap VST compatible host come out that you could test with?
Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
However, if they did the clever thing and released a free (empty) plugin, this could be big news. I hope this is a sign that that is coming.
I partially agree, but there is no necessity for this; it really depends on Propellerheads motives and other plans long term.

User avatar
fieldframe
Posts: 727
Joined: 19 Apr 2016

Post 30 Jan 2020

scratchnsnifff wrote:
30 Jan 2020
fieldframe wrote:
30 Jan 2020


I hope they don’t wait as long to do this as they waited to make the SDK public.

There is basically zero downside to offering a free empty rack VST. Honestly, it would be a bit of an olive branch to developers like Blamsoft, who would now have a second chance to sell something like Expanse to a wider audience after getting Sherlocked by Europa.
I don’t believe $99 is the lowest entry

Pretty sure they still do the $9 deal with the app

Giving you a copy of Reason lite
Or the reward points
But in order to get the copy you need to register a new email

If you don’t have any apple products, then minimum entry is iPad+$10
Reason Lite doesn’t include the VST plugin. Even if it did, though, the total addressable market would be much larger if the only requirement to use REs in your DAW of choice were creating a Reason Studios account.
Welcome to TEST FIXTURE

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Enlightenspeed
Posts: 360
Joined: 03 Jan 2019

Post 30 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I meant having to buy the plugin. VCV is free. Reason is not.
In which case I need to repeat this:


How are Reaktor and Kontakt getting on, in this regard?
When did the first free, or cheap VST compatible host come out that you could test with?

stp2015
Posts: 245
Joined: 02 Feb 2016

Post 30 Jan 2020

Cash flows are probably less attractive with a free empty Reson Plugin. Users would be able to just buy the Synapse bundle and be happy. I used to say: Reason Intro + Synapse Bundle = Reason 12 :D

jlgrimes
Posts: 423
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

Post 30 Jan 2020

Yonatan wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I guess we will soon understand this move.

Is this in any way meeting the Max for Live? A way to bring in some Refill-making philosophy into RE making?

As long as RS has the platform through which all RE:s pass, it would make sense to open up more for collaborations?

I mean, the whole idea with Rack plugin in the long run is to have a living RE market and community...if that ceases, the plugin will not be prosperous.

It makes sense that they want to open up the RE Platform and make it easier for developers.

I agree the Rack Plugin has alot riding on the REs you can only get in Reason. I'm thinking especially Players and Step Sequencers.

Hopefully being open will promote Reason to develop the RE engine at a faster pace, because it will put any limitations out in the open. Hopefully it will also highlight clear advantages over VSTS as well.

Reason might even decide to make a free RE Player only version (maybe include some basic Reason devices like Combinators and such). You throw a few good sounds in for free and it can entice almost everyone to download.

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Faastwalker
Posts: 1594
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 31 Jan 2020

Awesome. Sounds like a great idea to open this thing up more & make it more accessible.

Martin Fridegren
Posts: 1
Joined: 04 Sep 2019

Post 31 Jan 2020

Koshdukai wrote:
30 Jan 2020
Now it's possible to publicly share things like this without breaking the NDA:

https://github.com/fredwillmore/SI2/blo ... README.txt
Good to see! Please note that you are required to include the RE License agreement in your project. Please add it, you may find the agreement here:
https://developer.reasonstudios.com/agr ... _agreement

It is also included in the SDK as a txt-file under /SDK/Licences

From the license file:
"With the exception of Rack Extension products distributed via Reason Studios' Shop, this license agreement and the copyright notice included herein must be distributed together with all copies of any results from your use of the Rack Extension SDK."

Best Regards,
Martin
Reason Studios

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