No more NDA!

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
Rackman
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29 Jan 2020

Are the restrictions on creating an RE gone as well (do you still need to have a LTD company).

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aeox
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29 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Are the restrictions on creating an RE gone as well (do you still need to have a LTD company).
You didn't need one before, you just enter something random and it accepts it

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challism
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29 Jan 2020

Seems like a last ditch effort to save the dying RE market. And it's a brilliant idea. I think it will work. Opening up Reason as a VST itself was the first brilliant move. Now this. This will breathe new life life in the RE market.

This is amazing news. I think we will see the RE market explode in the coming years with many new devs and probably a lot of new free REs available.

I'm also wondering about the use of the word amend. Does it mean that devs can now change the SDK itself, and someday bypass so many of its limitations? This could be huge.

I'm curious if they are going to open up Reason's RE test version "Reason Recon" for everyone, too? And are all the other tools going to be available? Seems like they would be. https://www.reasonstudios.com/developers
Players are to MIDI what synthesizers are to waveforms.

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Rackman
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Joined: 28 Dec 2019

29 Jan 2020

This definitely interesting. Potentially a great way of reducing development cost of they go down the open source route.

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Loque
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29 Jan 2020

challism wrote:
29 Jan 2020
...
I am also wondering about the use of the word amend...
Probably in cooperation. Maybe they gonna start to listen now...I remind to have read something like this, but cannot find atm.
Reason12, Win10

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

29 Jan 2020

ok, found the documentation under https://developer.reasonstudios.com/documentation/ - was expecting a pdf in the zip file like in the Remote SDK.
Still have to figure out all bits of information to get started.

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artotaku
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29 Jan 2020

sdst wrote:
29 Jan 2020
so with all those open-source vst code, now we can create rack extensions? :)

very nice, only need to learn Python
Note quite. Python is just used to run the build/compile process on your local system. For actual coding you need C++ and LUA for non-IDT devices or the Gorilla Scripting Language for IDTs.

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Loque
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29 Jan 2020

sdst wrote:
29 Jan 2020
so with all those open-source vst code, now we can create rack extensions? :)

very nice, only need to learn Python
Careful....you need to check the licenses of all those VST code ;) There are also some sections in the license agreement with Reasonstudio mentioning those points.
Reason12, Win10

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

29 Jan 2020

btw is the Remote Sdk also open source now, so i can finally talk openly about code etc?

Yonatan
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29 Jan 2020

Don´t understand the scope of this yet, but it does feels good that things are opening up.

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dioxide
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29 Jan 2020

artotaku wrote:
29 Jan 2020
btw, not only RE docs are available but Remote SDK docs as well.
https://developer.reasonstudios.com/dow ... r-products

If you ever wanted to know how you could make a remote codec happen for your MIDI controller, I encourage you to read the docs. It makes it by far easier than reverse engineering existing codecs or relying on information here in the forums.
Oh FINALLY!!

(although the docs are still from 2010 - 10 YEARS AGO!! though)

botnotbot
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29 Jan 2020

electrofux wrote:
29 Jan 2020
btw is the Remote Sdk also open source now, so i can finally talk openly about code etc?
Yup, there should be zero restrictions with discussing APIs, techniques, all that jazz!

Very happy they did this. It reinvigorates my stalled RE development plans.

Heater
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29 Jan 2020

I wonder if we should have a rack development discussion section on the forum.

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pongasoft
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29 Jan 2020

Expect the source code for all my free REs (A/B Switch, A/B 12, CVA-7 and VAC-6) as well as my mini framework used to across all of them to be on github in the near future (once I find the time).

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diminished
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29 Jan 2020

@Mods+Kenni, can we have a public development forum now please?
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

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diminished
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29 Jan 2020

pongasoft wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Expect the source code for all my free REs (A/B Switch, A/B 12, CVA-7 and VAC-6) as well as my mini framework used to across all of them to be on github in the near future (once I find the time).
:thumbs_up: :thumbs_up:
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

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EpiGenetik
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29 Jan 2020

guitfnky wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Reason Studios hereby grants to you a royalty-free license to study, amend and use the Rack Extension SDK
wait, does that mean it’s open-source now? devs can actually modify the SDK code itself? that would be huge.
Right...

TL:DR - yes, but you always could. Be careful with just thinking that you can just do what you want with it though. It is a plugin development system, and with all plugs you need socket compatibility. So if you mess around with the API headers, then you are in abstract changing the type of plug.



Now for the coders...

C++

As per always, you can amend structures and functions via overloading, assuming that you include the appropriate details in the header/s (EDIT!!! - Only your own headers btw, not the API ones). It doesn't, however, mean that you can alter the details of what Reason will accept, it is still a form of 'Design by Contract' in the end. So you can't just make Reason accept a MIDI note number value of 3465, for example, because the same invariants and constraints would still apply. VST, and of course every other platform (not just audio but all API's) will have the exact same level of tolerance for breaching constraints - i.e., none whatsoever, and rightly so.

There is also no external library support outside of the STL. This is to do with the design goals, which I have to say I agree with really. Unfortunately, this kills off any chance of multiple VST ports, as many of them will be reliant on custom libraries, but that is no longer a problem of course for the Reason user, and the flipside of the coin is that porting a RE to VST is in theory quite easy to do.


LUA

This is where things are a bit stricter. Reason looks for very specific structures in order to be able to allocate memory correctly at the point of initialization, so variables have to fit one of a number of formats, and other declarations (such as the device height) need to be static. So in other words, if you want to get sneaky with this kind of thing then figure out a process for doing it in the C++ parts.


Python

Not much to say here really, as the only Python bit which is mandatory is the build scripts and GUI rendering tools - you can't really mess around with these too much because they might not work if you mod them a lot, but simple little things like time-stamping can be done easily enough, or perhaps if you want to generate your own build numbers that print to the console etc. However, it is smart to have access to Python for other stuff, such as automating script builds for C++ and/or LUA because things can get very repetitive and tedious, and automation is better for this because it cuts down on user errors which might not be time-consuming to find.
Last edited by EpiGenetik on 29 Jan 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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challism
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29 Jan 2020

diminished wrote:
29 Jan 2020
@Mods+Kenni, can we have a public development forum now please?
I'm sure that will be happening soon. I've just sent a message to the other mods about it.
Players are to MIDI what synthesizers are to waveforms.

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diminished
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29 Jan 2020

:thumbs_up:
challism wrote:
29 Jan 2020
diminished wrote:
29 Jan 2020
@Mods+Kenni, can we have a public development forum now please?
I'm sure that will be happening soon. I've just sent a message to the other mods about it.
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

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Koshdukai
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Location: Portugal

29 Jan 2020

challism wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I'm also wondering about the use of the word amend. Does it mean that devs can now change the SDK itself, and someday bypass so many of its limitations? This could be huge.
Unless something changed in the SDK documentation (which I need to re-read in this new context), you may see that they (ReasonStudios) will use the official SDK to (re)build your uploaded .u45 package for release in the shop.

So, if you change your local copy of the SDK beyond certain limits, you may end up with an impossible to build/release/publish RE.

Also, if you change it "at all" you may be pushing your projects into a corner when the next SDK version comes up.

btw, the "limitations" are there by design. Reading the whole documentation will finally allow many to understand why somethings aren't possible in RE-land, by design.
Last edited by Koshdukai on 29 Jan 2020, edited 2 times in total.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

29 Jan 2020

Oki,

reading and reading. Already found some interesting things concerning me an my Remote/StepSequencer mania. There is no limit of remotable items which makes me wonder why many devices are not complete in that area, given that it seems to be straight forward assingning a remote item to a motherboard property. I assume there are some pitfalls though.
But there has allways been reluctance to implement the steps of sequencer devices as remotable especially when patterns were involved and the number of items would become big. I am wondering if a high number of remotable properties (eg 5000) would affect performance.

Also there seem to be 217 automatable items per device (important when a RE is used in VST Rack as only these are exposed to the host and thus midicontrollable)- 256 minus the reserved one (39).
CV sockets are limited to 100 ins an outs (sucks).

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EnochLight
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29 Jan 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Super cool! I don't know if it's possible within the current SDK but I'd love to see a drum machine with time stretching and formant controls. I know it's possible(ish) to do using the current tools but just to have it all in one tidy package would be super.

**Edit: nvm, made one with Grains and it's insane haha. #justreasonthings
Yeah, I was about to say - Grain (and Europa) itself was built with the exact same RE SDK that most devs have had access to for quite some time. A grainular/time-stretchy drum machine is absolutely possible if someone had the time, patience, and fortitude to develop one. But since Reason now supports VST, I don't know of any dev that would put the time and resources into an RE now except for indie-devs that just love working in Reason.

#hoping
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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Koshdukai
Posts: 369
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Location: Portugal

29 Jan 2020

electrofux wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Oki,

reading and reading. Already found some interesting things concerning me an my Remote/StepSequencer mania. There is no limit of remotable items which makes me wonder why many devices are not complete in that area, given that it seems to be straight forward assingning a remote item to a motherboard property. I assume there are some pitfalls though.
But there has allways been reluctance to implement the steps of sequencer devices as remotable especially when patterns were involved and the number of items would become big. I am wondering if a high number of remotable properties (eg 5000) would affect performance.

Also there seem to be 217 automatable items per device (important when a RE is used in VST Rack as only these are exposed to the host and thus midicontrollable)- 256 minus the reserved one (39).
CV sockets are limited to 100 ins an outs (sucks).
This is the 1st more immediate (side-)effect of making the SDK public: Understand some of the previously "hidden" (or less clearly explained) stuff ;)

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fieldframe
RE Developer
Posts: 1037
Joined: 19 Apr 2016

29 Jan 2020

challism wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Seems like a last ditch effort to save the dying RE market. And it's a brilliant idea. I think it will work. Opening up Reason as a VST itself was the first brilliant move. Now this. This will breathe new life life in the RE market.

This is amazing news. I think we will see the RE market explode in the coming years with many new devs and probably a lot of new free REs available.

I'm also wondering about the use of the word amend. Does it mean that devs can now change the SDK itself, and someday bypass so many of its limitations? This could be huge.

I'm curious if they are going to open up Reason's RE test version "Reason Recon" for everyone, too? And are all the other tools going to be available? Seems like they would be. https://www.reasonstudios.com/developers
Agreed that this feels like a bit of a last ditch effort. I really hope it succeeds!

Honestly, though, the ideal time to do this was maybe four, five years ago, back when RE still had some appreciable momentum. The platform has been more or less dead in the water for the past year or so, and it's hard to say whether this will have an effect or not.

I think the real determining factor will be whether this spurs interest in (and whether the licensing allows) RE technology to be used outside of Reason, like the proofs-of-concept with MIND Music Labs' Elk. If it does, that will be a win for everyone, but if not, I don't think you're going to suddenly get a bunch of new developers for whom an NDA was the only thing keeping them from developing for Reason.

Anyway, fingers crossed that this is the beginning of a new era for the platform, and not resuscitating a dead horse.

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Koshdukai
Posts: 369
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Location: Portugal

29 Jan 2020

EnochLight wrote:
29 Jan 2020
But since Reason now supports VST, I don't know of any dev that would put the time and resources into an RE now except for indie-devs that just love working in Reason.
Enthusiasts and Devs that believe/like the CV and multi-audio I/O rack concepts... and easier Remote visual feedback and mapping :)

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