No more NDA!

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
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Proboscis
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Post 01 Feb 2020

There are two ways they could go with this.

1. Since Reason Rack is more or less a VST, they could create an invisible wrapper - no indicator that an RE is any different to a VST for the end user. Suddenly, they have a whole store full of VST to sell. And the customer has the choice to 'download as RE/VST/Reason Rack/All formats' much the same way sample packs offer various formats.

2. As suggested, a basic wrapper could be free. I've purchased several hardware pieces over the years, and almost all came bundled with Ableton Lite & Cubase LE. It's a perfect way to introduce people to a new DAW ecosystem with a view for upgrading. And Reason WERE recently offering a Reason 'Lite' (I don;t know if thats what it was called) with AKAI gear. So why not make that licence open to everyone who wants it, with a handful of instruments, FX & utilities that will get people interested in what is unique about Reason, that being the back-of-rack routing

There are plenty of opportunities to capitalize on, but nobody over at Reason Studios seems to have the vision to make this happen. Nor does there seem to be any interest in growing profits for their partners, the third party developers who have worked hard to support a new format that's helped Reason become what it is today, with Rack Extensions.

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QVprod
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Post 02 Feb 2020

Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I don't think the comparison with VCV Rack is a good one, because there is zero barrier for entry there. There is no way this will pull the same kind of interest from developers so long as the plugin is so expensive. However if they did the clever thing and released a free (empty) plugin, this could be big news. I hope this is a sign that that is coming.
QVprod wrote:
30 Jan 2020


Quite the opposite. Being a developer does not give you a full version of Reason and the SDK never had a cost to obtain, They only ever made money off sales. This would (hopefully) inspire more products and therefore more sales. Making it public simply makes it more easily accessible to the tech folk who may want to give it a try. A lot of small developers have been able to make noise in VST land, as well as with Reaktor ensembles and VCV Rack. The hope would be that the same kind of tinkering curiosity happens here. If successful, it would give a significant boost for RE.
I don't think that presents enough difference to say they aren't similar. I believe both are free to develop for, so upfront cost to the developer is zero. Nonetheless , All of the examples mentioned are popular platforms that allow for 3rd party content. Also should RS make a free rack version (and they should), the differences would be even more minimal.

Yonatan
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Post 02 Feb 2020

challism wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I changed my mind after having slept on it. No limitations for the number of REs in the wrapper/RRP seems like the right move to me, because the customer first has to buy those REs in order to use them (or try and a trial runs out), and they should be allowed to use their purchases together in the Reason-esque environment, be it free or paid. The beautiful and most exciting part of Reason is on the back side of the rack, IMO.

They should also give away a few freebies with the wrapper. Why not? They aren't losing money by giving away already built devices to lure in potential new customers. Give away one utility (Pulsar), one effect (Pulverizer) and one instrument (Monotone) bundled in the wrapper. Are we calling that a RRP now?

And they need to release SDK 3.0 which eliminates all current limitations and puts REs on the same level as VSTs. Pipe dream? Maybe. But if they are to attract new users and (most importantly) new Devs, REs shouldn't have all the limitations they have.
Yes, it makes sense. And why not throw in a Player while you are at it, if it is meant to be a tiny promotional taste of Reason. Then have some % off the price if buying Reason Intro. Standard or Suite.

The question that comes up is 1) This will also mean that all of us who have many RE:s and are on Reason 10 or whatever, then gets the Rack Plugin for free (which to my mind would make sense!) or they have a "only new registered users get it free (and it will piss off even more of all the loyal users)
2) As a free Rack registered owner, would that user be able to have ways to get the core devices even if not wanting to buy Intro, Standard or Suite? I mean, will there need to be a separation between the DAW and the Rack Plugin.

These above I guess, is why the idea of one device wrapper came about, as it would be fast to just do without any delays, as a service to the many developers as well as those just wanting to buy one or two RE:s as if it were a VST/AU device.
But maybe that is more work to that than letting people get (almost) empty but fully functional Rack Plugin for free (as it is already there).
To get people nowadays to register an account, they have to have a carrot a bit sweeter, and it spells out "free devices". But also some minimalists would complain they just want what they really need (well, so make the free devices an optional choice).

It would probably be the smartest way marketing wise than having an 1 RE wrapper which is more for a few concerned users that only are missing one or a few RE:s from their big VST collection. I mean, those ones know what they want and will probably not be an big enough crowd. It would benefit the third party developers that have some nice effect or synth. But it might not benefit the Player-makers or get people to get "hooked" on combining RE:s in the Rack, thus considering Reason Rack Plugin bundled with Reason as a DAW.

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selig
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Post 02 Feb 2020

Loque wrote:
31 Jan 2020
selig wrote:
31 Jan 2020


Like almost everyone else here, I too made the request for a free player (before realizing I was not the first!). But I went further and even suggested it would only host ONE Rack Extension at a time, to avoid any of the possible negatives mentioned by others (and many disagreed with this idea, IIRC).

I say this because I believe there is a market for "non Reason" users to use Rack Extensions, which IMO is a different market than Reason users. And these folks likely don't want a $99 paywall in front of using Rack Extensions - no other plugin format has one.
Yes, the beauty of Reason is the interconnectivity of the rack, and yes, the limitation of only loading one RE at a time means no "Reason experience".
But IMO, it would act as a way to dip your toes in the shallow end of the Reason pool: buy an RE, get the free player, which leads to getting more REs, and which may or may not lead to a Reason purchase (but that's not the point - it's a bonus).

Reason Studios gets $$ for every RE sold, so this is a win/win and a way to open the market to a wider audience than if you limit access to those who own a version of Reason.
The paywall also exist with Kontakt, where some extensions nee full Kontakt.

I think only 1 RE is a bit too less and you are right, it will "remove" the Reason experience. Everybody should at least be able to hook up a Player or an LFO on the backside or a small Mixer.
Comparisons to Kontakt don't seem relevant here for the point I'm making, same for the "Reason Experience" which is arguably not for everyone. What I care about is the folks who have no interest in Reason or the "experience", and yet would STILL be interested in certain REs which are not otherwise available to them.
Trying to keep it simple here - there is a market out there that is being ignored, and it's the folks who are NOT interested in the "experience".
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selig
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Post 02 Feb 2020

challism wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I agree with the idea of a free RE wrapper. That is really the only way I see this attract new developers, new REs and new buyers. The RE market has not been a good one the last year or so. I also agree that it should be extremely limited, but one device seems too limiting to me. To truly give the user a taste (tease) of Reason, they should be able to use at least two devices. Twos is enough to let them hook up a player to a synth, or an LFO to some effect, and really play around with the back side of the rack. It might also encourage them to buy more REs to use together or entice them to buy, at the very least, the $99 version.
I think the "one RE" idea also does ALL of that, and it's much more simple to develop. There's two choices as I see it: one RE, or more than one RE (which is an open ended "slippery slope": why just two, why not three? If three, why not four? etc…)

Again, I'm trying to keep it simple and make my point, which is to expose REs to those who do NOT want the Reason experience! Those who DO want the experience will load up the 30 day trial and see for themselves - if they want the experience of Reason, it's only $99. Keep it simple.
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selig
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Post 02 Feb 2020

pongasoft wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I am not convinced that a free RE wrapper which can host only one RE is right. The true power of Reason is how you can connect each other in truly unique fashion. You have to remember that Reason Studios take a cut of every single RE they sell... so even if they were to provide a free RE hosting platform that can host as many RE as Reason, it's not like they would not make any money of of it.

Here we have a chicken and egg problem... they need to attract users and developers.. they won't attract users if the barrier of entry is too high. They won't attract developers if they don't attract users.
Again, this is the "Reason Experience" argument (the "true power" point above)! Can we agree there are folks who do NOT care about the Reason experience? Isn't the current market share of DAWs enough evidence to prove this point?

A "One RE" device also attracts users, just DIFFERENT users, which equals a BIGGER market.

I think limiting the RE experience to those who want the Reason experience is short sighted, both for developers AND users!
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selig
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Post 02 Feb 2020

challism wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I changed my mind after having slept on it. No limitations for the number of REs in the wrapper/RRP seems like the right move to me, because the customer first has to buy those REs in order to use them (or try and a trial runs out), and they should be allowed to use their purchases together in the Reason-esque environment, be it free or paid. The beautiful and most exciting part of Reason is on the back side of the rack, IMO.
Again, the "Reason Experience" argument.

Can we at least agree on the point that there are folks who are NOT interested in the Reason experience? And THAT number of users is far greater than the folks who ARE interested in the Reason Experience. Which means there's a huge market out there for REs that's not being tapped - that's the point that I feel keeps getting lost here.

All ideas are valid IMO, there's no reason not to have more than one option here - let's just not throw out the one idea that includes the non-Reason experience market because I believe that market is HUGE. ;)
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pongasoft
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Post 02 Feb 2020

selig wrote:
02 Feb 2020
challism wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I changed my mind after having slept on it. No limitations for the number of REs in the wrapper/RRP seems like the right move to me, because the customer first has to buy those REs in order to use them (or try and a trial runs out), and they should be allowed to use their purchases together in the Reason-esque environment, be it free or paid. The beautiful and most exciting part of Reason is on the back side of the rack, IMO.
Again, the "Reason Experience" argument.

Can we at least agree on the point that there are folks who are NOT interested in the Reason experience? And THAT number of users is far greater than the folks who ARE interested in the Reason Experience. Which means there's a huge market out there for REs that's not being tapped - that's the point that I feel keeps getting lost here.

All ideas are valid IMO, there's no reason not to have more than one option here - let's just not throw out the one idea that includes the non-Reason experience market because I believe that market is HUGE. ;)
I would say let's agree to disagree. You clearly have your own opinion. I (and others) have a different one. ;)

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 02 Feb 2020

challism wrote:
01 Feb 2020
And they need to release SDK 3.0 which eliminates all current limitations and puts REs on the same level as VSTs. Pipe dream? Maybe. But if they are to attract new users and (most importantly) new Devs, REs shouldn't have all the limitations they have.
First up, the next major release will be 5, not 3 (not particularly important, of course). 😊

I also just want to clarify some stuff regarding current limitations here, though.

There are a few things that can certainly use some work obviously but probably less than you would think once you consider the design ethos of RE’s. The stated goals suggest that any RE should be as future proof as possible so that regardless of changing platforms and OS etc, a RE should still operate, behave and sound the same way 20 years from now as it does today.

There is frankly nothing worse than moving to a new system or OS, and finding that a song file is no longer operable because some element/s of it are no longer working. The People’s Republic of VSTland is absolutely riddled with this, and NI are a good example of a company that now has an impressive list of products which have been discontinued, despite being the best in their class at the time they were given the boot (think Kore, Pro-53, B4, and now even Absynth is beginning to look like abandonware although it is still there for now). It gets worse though, as there are literally tens of thousands of freeware, donation ware and even paid products from developers who basically lost interest or went under, that are sitting in people’s project archives making compositions either difficult to resurrect or just as likely, completely impossible to use again. If you ever got rid of a freebie soundpack carelessly or deleted one of the old freebie Refills, then you will have had a taste of that frustration via the dreaded missing samples dialogue. But it’s still absolute peanuts compared to what the VST user community has had to deal with over the years.

The biggest driver of these abandoned plugins is almost certainly the changes in OS and proprietary libraries. What happens is that a set of library functions gets updated to be all shiny and new, but little to no consideration is given to how these will affect existing software that is using a now deprecated version. If the developer is still going then they can either make a business decision to make the necessary changes to resuscitate the software, or they can simply say no - and it becomes a profitability equation. If there’s no longer a developer? Byyyyeeeeeee.

Thus we come to the biggest limitation on RE’s - no OS and/or commercial proprietary libraries. It’s not because “Reason cannot do it”, it’s about foresight of serious problems going forward.

Keep in mind though, that a good enough developer, will not be hampered by a lot of the missing bits of libraries because you can often build your own code for a function. Some stuff such as video support modules etc are out of the question of course because they would genuinely need a paradigm shift from RS, and others would require too much work for the developer to undertake in a reasonable time frame, but ultimately there is a good deal less genuine restriction than you would think. Also, oftentimes it is smarter not to use library functions because they are designed for a different contract than what you intend and you end up with more lines of code because you had to reformat the output of the library code.

So the restrictions which are there are not always there because “RS haven’t done it yet”; it appears, to me at least, that some of them are avoided because the realities of software development in the longer term have been anticipated via years and years of RS watching other companies and end users suffer the consequences.

Wow, that went on waaaay longer than I expected 😂 Sorry about that.

Cheers,
Brian

Yonatan
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Post 02 Feb 2020

selig wrote:
02 Feb 2020
I think limiting the RE experience to those who want the Reason experience is short sighted, both for developers AND users!
Yes to that statement. It describes the case as is right now. That the Rack Plugin (potentially seen as an advanced VST-wrapper) is tied with a Reason DAW license. In whatever way, somehow, I think RS owe it to all the RE-developers to allow more potential buyers that just want to use some single RE or two, as any other VST-plugin. Those people who will not buy Intro or Full Reason DAW, and who have no interest in playing with cables or even combinators a´la Reason style.

As said, nothing excludes the 1 RE plugin wrapper from other alternative stages of the Rack experience too. What if one separates Wrapper idea from Rack idea altogether. The Wrapper (one RE) could then free itself from looking as a rack at all, and be more like a VST in its look, just a window with the RE, and leaving out the Rack altogether. And then for all who have any interest combining RE:s in the Rack Plugin, there can be a few options there regarding how much content to start with in the Rack. And even there needs something even more stripped down than Reason Intro version. Some might not want to deal with Reason core contents in the first instance, but that there exist ways to add those later on. If RS lower the bar, I guess more flow will come into the RE shop, both for RE developers as well as for RS. The current "you must have Reason to get the Rack" is not something that will work long term. But yes, I do understand that have became the position since Rack plugin was the whole gimmick in the selling of R11. But after the hype dust settled, it is obvious that RS really need to be able to sell Reason DAW even without the Rack plugin as a carrot. The truth of that matter is shown in how all R10 users (who use the DAW mainly) did not see the real value of upgrading this time. R11 (or R12) DAW need to be able to stand on its own. This time, that was not the case. The Rack Plugin was the selling point. And the funny thing in that truth is that even those who never considered another main DAW, went crazy looking for that other DAW, because that was the nudging effect that the whole R11 was all about. To get the full value of upgrading, one had to go look for another DAW to get some use of the Rack Plugin.And that nudging effect is what caused all the fuss about if RS was ditching the DAW side of Reason and only would care for the Rack Plugin onwards. And bcause all the demands of features of the Rack Plugin, hitherto in practical sense, all have indeed been all about that Rack Plugin. Hope this will balance out any time soon.
Last edited by Yonatan on 02 Feb 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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selig
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Post 02 Feb 2020

pongasoft wrote:
02 Feb 2020
selig wrote:
02 Feb 2020


Again, the "Reason Experience" argument.

Can we at least agree on the point that there are folks who are NOT interested in the Reason experience? And THAT number of users is far greater than the folks who ARE interested in the Reason Experience. Which means there's a huge market out there for REs that's not being tapped - that's the point that I feel keeps getting lost here.

All ideas are valid IMO, there's no reason not to have more than one option here - let's just not throw out the one idea that includes the non-Reason experience market because I believe that market is HUGE. ;)
I would say let's agree to disagree. You clearly have your own opinion. I (and others) have a different one. ;)
And yet, my opinion does not in any way negate any one else's. I'm coming from an inclusive angle, rather than saying it has to be "my way" and not "your way". In that sense, there is no disagreement on my part, but you are free to continue to disagree for whatever reasons you may have! :)

Unless I misunderstood, and your opinion is there is no market for REs separate from Reason?
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Boombastix
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Post 02 Feb 2020

orthodox wrote:
01 Feb 2020
Boombastix wrote:
01 Feb 2020
A limited RRP is surely the wrong move, just gives users a bad taste. Better to arrange with in app purchases like most modern apps. Thor $29, Maelström $19, Subtractor $9, REs att current shop price, etc.
I guess rewriting the built-in devices as REs would be a difficult task, and even impossible for some of them on the current SDK.
No need to rewrite anything. RRP can already host native devices. The Reason experience can be as simple as dropping in Thor, then dropping in Pulverizer. No cable routing needed, it auto routes, but still an experience in its simplest form that even new beginners can do immediately.

Thus no limit on devices is the best move and build a shop inside like Reason Compact (IK Multimedias shop VSTs).
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Post 02 Feb 2020

Boombastix wrote:
02 Feb 2020
orthodox wrote:
01 Feb 2020


I guess rewriting the built-in devices as REs would be a difficult task, and even impossible for some of them on the current SDK.
No need to rewrite anything. RRP can already host native devices. The Reason experience can be as simple as dropping in Thor, then dropping in Pulverizer. No cable routing needed, it auto routes, but still an experience in its simplest form that even new beginners can do immediately.

Thus no limit on devices is the best move and build a shop inside like Reason Compact (IK Multimedias shop VSTs).
You've just basically explained how every DAW (and hardware) works: plug a distortion after a synth!
And "no limit on devices" explains how the current Reason and RPP work.
What am I missing here?
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orthodox
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Post 02 Feb 2020

Boombastix wrote:
02 Feb 2020
orthodox wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I guess rewriting the built-in devices as REs would be a difficult task, and even impossible for some of them on the current SDK.
No need to rewrite anything. RRP can already host native devices.
Yeah, I overlooked that the stock devices could be there from the beginning, and the additional purchases of them could just enable their use.

I'm not sure if there really should be an RE wrapper version that disables the back side of the rack completely. I would just add a non-paid/demo mode of the current RRP where you could have only one device loaded. That would allow the users who now don't care about the Reason experience at least look at the back side and ask themselves 'wtf?' and maybe buy the license.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

Andy
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Post 03 Feb 2020

pongasoft wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I am not convinced that a free RE wrapper which can host only one RE is right. The true power of Reason is how you can connect each other in truly unique fashion.
I agree 100%. What happens when a user decide to buy more REs? Also user decide they want to do all the creative routings etc the regular rack offers? This will simply lead to more complaints and request which will be aimed at RS. Devs will then hop on the train to complain about this limitation as well. People tend to not like the idea that they are limited, they want everything at their disposal even if they do not use half the features available.

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eXode
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Post 03 Feb 2020

I'm sorry but no.

You are over complicating things. A free RE Plugin Rack that can host a single RE at a time. Buy more and they show up in the list of selectable devices, but each instance can only load one device at a time, with some basic I/O for audio. The back can still be available so that non Reason customers get a glimpse of what they are missing. :)

The primary purpose is to get RE into VST and AU land and thus offering a SDK that inderectly targets three plug-in formats at the same time.

The routing experience should be for people buying Reason.

No threshold for RE
Low threshold for Reason Intro (as it is now)
Etc.

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Loque
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Post 03 Feb 2020

eXode wrote:
03 Feb 2020
I'm sorry but no.

You are over complicating things. A free RE Plugin Rack that can host a single RE at a time. Buy more and they show up in the list of selectable devices, but each instance can only load one device at a time, with some basic I/O for audio. The back can still be available so that non Reason customers get a glimpse of what they are missing. :)

The primary purpose is to get RE into VST and AU land and thus offering a SDK that inderectly targets three plug-in formats at the same time.

The routing experience should be for people buying Reason.

No threshold for RE
Low threshold for Reason Intro (as it is now)
Etc.
Agree. 100%. :thumbs_up:
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pongasoft
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Post 03 Feb 2020

eXode wrote:
03 Feb 2020
I'm sorry but no.

You are over complicating things. A free RE Plugin Rack that can host a single RE at a time. Buy more and they show up in the list of selectable devices, but each instance can only load one device at a time, with some basic I/O for audio. The back can still be available so that non Reason customers get a glimpse of what they are missing. :)

The primary purpose is to get RE into VST and AU land and thus offering a SDK that inderectly targets three plug-in formats at the same time.

The routing experience should be for people buying Reason.

No threshold for RE
Low threshold for Reason Intro (as it is now)
Etc.
There is clearly 2 different diverging opinions on this topic. But think about it this way: my RE CVA-7 is in the shop. I know it is free but I could sell it for a profit (I won't I promise ;)). If somebody buys it what are they going to do with it? It clearly needs to be connected to another RE since it is entirely CV driven. Isn't it the same for any other RE that deal mostly with CV? What about Pulsar LFO? I know it is built-in device for Reason Studio, but why not sell it for the free empty rack? If you can only have 1 RE now, somehow you are going to say: you can only buy some REs not others.

This is why I think having 1 RE restriction does not make too much sense

Yan

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eXode
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Post 03 Feb 2020

pongasoft wrote:
03 Feb 2020
eXode wrote:
03 Feb 2020
I'm sorry but no.

You are over complicating things. A free RE Plugin Rack that can host a single RE at a time. Buy more and they show up in the list of selectable devices, but each instance can only load one device at a time, with some basic I/O for audio. The back can still be available so that non Reason customers get a glimpse of what they are missing. :)

The primary purpose is to get RE into VST and AU land and thus offering a SDK that inderectly targets three plug-in formats at the same time.

The routing experience should be for people buying Reason.

No threshold for RE
Low threshold for Reason Intro (as it is now)
Etc.
There is clearly 2 different diverging opinions on this topic. But think about it this way: my RE CVA-7 is in the shop. I know it is free but I could sell it for a profit (I won't I promise ;)). If somebody buys it what are they going to do with it? It clearly needs to be connected to another RE since it is entirely CV driven. Isn't it the same for any other RE that deal mostly with CV? What about Pulsar LFO? I know it is built-in device for Reason Studio, but why not sell it for the free empty rack? If you can only have 1 RE now, somehow you are going to say: you can only buy some REs not others.

This is why I think having 1 RE restriction does not make too much sense

Yan
I understand your point, but I don't agree with it, simply because it would undermine Reason itself. A free single RE wrapper thing is a viable option (imho), but not getting the Reason experience without getting Reason.

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fieldframe
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Post 03 Feb 2020

eXode wrote:
03 Feb 2020
pongasoft wrote:
03 Feb 2020


There is clearly 2 different diverging opinions on this topic. But think about it this way: my RE CVA-7 is in the shop. I know it is free but I could sell it for a profit (I won't I promise ;)). If somebody buys it what are they going to do with it? It clearly needs to be connected to another RE since it is entirely CV driven. Isn't it the same for any other RE that deal mostly with CV? What about Pulsar LFO? I know it is built-in device for Reason Studio, but why not sell it for the free empty rack? If you can only have 1 RE now, somehow you are going to say: you can only buy some REs not others.

This is why I think having 1 RE restriction does not make too much sense

Yan
I understand your point, but I don't agree with it, simply because it would undermine Reason itself. A free single RE wrapper thing is a viable option (imho), but not getting the Reason experience without getting Reason.
This makes sense, and since you would have to have a Reason Studios account to use the free wrapper, the store would know you don’t have the full version of Reason and could prevent you from accidentally buying any CV devices, just like it does today if you don’t have the right SDK version for a product.
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Andy
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Post 03 Feb 2020

pongasoft wrote:
03 Feb 2020
eXode wrote:
03 Feb 2020
I'm sorry but no.

You are over complicating things. A free RE Plugin Rack that can host a single RE at a time. Buy more and they show up in the list of selectable devices, but each instance can only load one device at a time, with some basic I/O for audio. The back can still be available so that non Reason customers get a glimpse of what they are missing. :)

The primary purpose is to get RE into VST and AU land and thus offering a SDK that inderectly targets three plug-in formats at the same time.

The routing experience should be for people buying Reason.

No threshold for RE
Low threshold for Reason Intro (as it is now)
Etc.
There is clearly 2 different diverging opinions on this topic. But think about it this way: my RE CVA-7 is in the shop. I know it is free but I could sell it for a profit (I won't I promise ;)). If somebody buys it what are they going to do with it? It clearly needs to be connected to another RE since it is entirely CV driven. Isn't it the same for any other RE that deal mostly with CV? What about Pulsar LFO? I know it is built-in device for Reason Studio, but why not sell it for the free empty rack? If you can only have 1 RE now, somehow you are going to say: you can only buy some REs not others.

This is why I think having 1 RE restriction does not make too much sense

Yan
Exactly. This option is only beneficial for devs who are making intruments and FX. For devs who make utilities and players this does nothing for them. So now you have two issues. User who want all the options available in Reason and devs who want to give users those options. Why should a dev with a great idea for a Player be left out? You all know the request will come for the wrapper to support routing etc. Heck people are already asking for RRP to support VSTs because it's a glimpse of what's missing.

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challism
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Post 03 Feb 2020

I feel like a damn ping pong ball. Everybody is making good points.

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fieldframe
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Post 03 Feb 2020

Andy wrote:
03 Feb 2020
pongasoft wrote:
03 Feb 2020


There is clearly 2 different diverging opinions on this topic. But think about it this way: my RE CVA-7 is in the shop. I know it is free but I could sell it for a profit (I won't I promise ;)). If somebody buys it what are they going to do with it? It clearly needs to be connected to another RE since it is entirely CV driven. Isn't it the same for any other RE that deal mostly with CV? What about Pulsar LFO? I know it is built-in device for Reason Studio, but why not sell it for the free empty rack? If you can only have 1 RE now, somehow you are going to say: you can only buy some REs not others.

This is why I think having 1 RE restriction does not make too much sense

Yan
Exactly. This option is only beneficial for devs who are making intruments and FX. For devs who make utilities and players this does nothing for them. So now you have two issues. User who want all the options available in Reason and devs who want to give users those options. Why should a dev with a great idea for a Player be left out? You all know the request will come for the wrapper to support routing etc. Heck people are already asking for RRP to support VSTs because it's a glimpse of what's missing.
I would argue the expectations are different between developers of CV utilities and synths/effects. There are already synth and effect Rack Extensions that were ported from (or to) VST, and so it's not a stretch to imagine those types of REs working by themselves in another host. CV, on the other hand, is more or less exclusive to Reason in the DAW market. There are no CV utility VST ports, so no one would expect them to work alone in another DAW.

Players are a special case, as there are MIDI VSTs, and Reason Studios just needs to add MIDI-out support to the Reason Rack Plugin.
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Andy
Posts: 74
Joined: 03 May 2017

Post 03 Feb 2020

fieldframe wrote:
03 Feb 2020
Andy wrote:
03 Feb 2020


Exactly. This option is only beneficial for devs who are making intruments and FX. For devs who make utilities and players this does nothing for them. So now you have two issues. User who want all the options available in Reason and devs who want to give users those options. Why should a dev with a great idea for a Player be left out? You all know the request will come for the wrapper to support routing etc. Heck people are already asking for RRP to support VSTs because it's a glimpse of what's missing.
I would argue the expectations are different between developers of CV utilities and synths/effects. There are already synth and effect Rack Extensions that were ported from (or to) VST, and so it's not a stretch to imagine those types of REs working by themselves in another host. CV, on the other hand, is more or less exclusive to Reason in the DAW market. There are no CV utility VST ports, so no one would expect them to work alone in another DAW.

Players are a special case, as there are MIDI VSTs, and Reason Studios just needs to add MIDI-out support to the Reason Rack Plugin.

It's not about the CV utility working by themselves it's about them working with the instrument in its RE state in the wrapper.

Again, look at it this way. Customer A buys a synth he/she has one instance of it in a wrapper. Customer A buys an FX but also here comes to the shop a cool player or utility. Customer A wants to use that player with the synth they bought . You mean to tell me that this customer should now forked out more money just to have those options? Worst developers of players etc only hope of reaching this customer is if they buy a version of Reason when other devs are not required to do this? Why should various devs be treated differently when they are all developing for the same platform?

And Players would not work either with this one device wrapper idea. Remember you can stack players on top of each other for creative possibilities.

I find it unacceptable we talk about supporting devs but have no problem overlooking those who may have a product that does not fit this one device wrapper idea.

zoidkirb
Posts: 244
Joined: 18 Nov 2018

Post 03 Feb 2020

I don't think RS will give out a free vst wrapper that can handle more than 1 RE.

I'm not saying shouldn't.

But I think they will consider the multitudes of users sitting on version 10 or below who might jump at the chance to take previously purchased RE's into their new DAW of choice without paying another cent.

A single wrapper while possibly attracting new users, would also be a nice gesture from RS to the old school Reason users while leaving open the tempting paid upgrade to the full RRP.

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