No more NDA!

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
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eXode
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Post 31 Jan 2020

stp2015 wrote:
30 Jan 2020
Cash flows are probably less attractive with a free empty Reson Plugin. Users would be able to just buy the Synapse bundle and be happy.
Which would still land Reason Studios 30% of the sale vs no sale...

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eXode
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Post 31 Jan 2020

Enlightenspeed wrote:
30 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I meant having to buy the plugin. VCV is free. Reason is not.
In which case I need to repeat this:

How are Reaktor and Kontakt getting on, in this regard?
When did the first free, or cheap VST compatible host come out that you could test with?
Kontakt is like comparing apples to oranges.

Reaktor have a free player - look at Razor, Monark and Super-8 for an example.

There have been free VST hosts for ages, Tobybear MiniHost in the past and Herman Seib VSTHost to mention two common simple hosts. There are several free 'fuller' hosts as well.

And RS still get 30% of your sales....
Last edited by eXode on 31 Jan 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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buddard
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Post 31 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
30 Jan 2020
I meant having to buy the plugin. VCV is free. Reason is not.
The plugin version of VCV Rack (to be released alongside 2.0) will cost around $99, i e slightly higher than Reason Intro.
The standalone VCV Rack is not that easy to integrate with your DAW.

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 31 Jan 2020

eXode wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Kontakt is like comparing apples to oranges.

Reaktor have a free player - look at Razor, Monark and Super-8 for an example.
You can't dev for them without owning the full versions of the program, though.

In principle at least, I'm very much onboard with the "Reason Player" idea, and I've made the suggestion to RS just last night. You'll see my post on the subject "elsewhere on the web", under my normal username :D .
eXode wrote:
31 Jan 2020
There have been free VST hosts for ages, Tobybear MiniHost in the past and Herman Seib VSTHost to mention two common simple hosts. There are several free 'fuller' hosts as well.
Hasn't always been the case though, and it used to be that you WOULD need a license for either Cubase or Logic to be able to dev. Apologies if it isn't clear here that I'm concerned mostly with the developer perspective in my post.
eXode wrote:
31 Jan 2020
And RS still get 30% of your sales....
Yeah, tell me about it :D However this suits me down to the ground because it allows me to be faster about what I'm doing if all I have to worry about is my devices and not the hassles and expenditure of money and, more importantly lost time, that I would incur should I have to develop web, shop and security services.

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eXode
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Post 31 Jan 2020

Enlightenspeed wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Apologies if it isn't clear here that I'm concerned mostly with the developer perspective in my post.
No need to apologize. I'm thinking about the developer/business perspective too, thats why I want a free Reason Rack Player Plugin (still going through shop, etc) that would be bundled with REs. I've made that request in another forum too. :)

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Loque
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Post 31 Jan 2020

eXode wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Enlightenspeed wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Apologies if it isn't clear here that I'm concerned mostly with the developer perspective in my post.
No need to apologize. I'm thinking about the developer/business perspective too, thats why I want a free Reason Rack Player Plugin (still going through shop, etc) that would be bundled with REs. I've made that request in another forum too. :)
Maybe it could be a bit more limited, so ppl are "forced" to buy Reason. Maybe only 3 devices or something like this.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

electrofux
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Post 31 Jan 2020

artotaku wrote:
30 Jan 2020
buddard wrote:
29 Jan 2020


It’s because the motherboard is limited to 1024 properties, and those slots fill up fast if you implement a multi pattern device. For Step, I chose to forego multiple pattern support in favor of maximizing Remote and automation support.

For Sequences, we definitely wanted multiple patterns, so we decided to encode the pattern data into long string properties, which of course makes Remote/automation support impossible.

But there’s also a usability aspect to this, since each parameter+pattern combination would have to have separate Remote objects. So you couldn’t for example toggle mute on step 3 in two different patterns using the same button without a really advanced Remote codec.
Redrum can do this, but it’s not an RE and doesn’t adhere to the same limitations.
I think there may be way to improve remote support for pattern based players/devices that are mostly custom display based. For the custom display use string properties as described above. For the remote codec it may be sufficient to use runtime properties that are the "view" subset of the string properties because a midi controller can only show e. g. one pattern or a certain step length at once. The thing is that midi controller typically has much fewer elements it can display (LED buttons etc) and does not need to know about the persistent state. We also have to take into account that remote codec input/output properties cannot be string properties. There is a restriction when you try to use them in the codec. So you can only use number properties.

This is how I do it with a RE I´m working on currently. So big document owner string properties that are modified by the custom display but runtime number properties to pass the state to the remote codec. The runtime (C++ part) supplies the remote codec with the necessary state it needs.

I think it would have been completely possible to make e. g. ReasonStudios Dual Arp fullly remotable for e. g. Launchpad like controllers.
But it is increased development effort since you have provide a specific Remote codec that works for midi controllers by different brands.
Starting to understand the whole properties thing and i see where ownership is an issue with pattern devices.
What you are suggesting is having the document properties being essentially the stringencoded patterns and every interaction with the display (eg changing velocity of step 14) writes into the whole pattern which then gets decoded in Realtime and decided if a note is to be played.
Then you have eg 64 rt_owner properties connected with remote items that Realtime writes into to set the lights of the Launchpad grid.
I would have to get my head around how to design the Display for the Launchpad to work on - it probably has to look like a launchapd aswell with in interaction areas allways be the same whatever page you are on. But i havent looked into the display side of things.

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selig
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Post 31 Jan 2020

Loque wrote:
31 Jan 2020
eXode wrote:
31 Jan 2020

No need to apologize. I'm thinking about the developer/business perspective too, thats why I want a free Reason Rack Player Plugin (still going through shop, etc) that would be bundled with REs. I've made that request in another forum too. :)
Maybe it could be a bit more limited, so ppl are "forced" to buy Reason. Maybe only 3 devices or something like this.
Like almost everyone else here, I too made the request for a free player (before realizing I was not the first!). But I went further and even suggested it would only host ONE Rack Extension at a time, to avoid any of the possible negatives mentioned by others (and many disagreed with this idea, IIRC).

I say this because I believe there is a market for "non Reason" users to use Rack Extensions, which IMO is a different market than Reason users. And these folks likely don't want a $99 paywall in front of using Rack Extensions - no other plugin format has one.
Yes, the beauty of Reason is the interconnectivity of the rack, and yes, the limitation of only loading one RE at a time means no "Reason experience".
But IMO, it would act as a way to dip your toes in the shallow end of the Reason pool: buy an RE, get the free player, which leads to getting more REs, and which may or may not lead to a Reason purchase (but that's not the point - it's a bonus).

Reason Studios gets $$ for every RE sold, so this is a win/win and a way to open the market to a wider audience than if you limit access to those who own a version of Reason.
Selig Audio, LLC

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Loque
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Post 31 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Loque wrote:
31 Jan 2020

Maybe it could be a bit more limited, so ppl are "forced" to buy Reason. Maybe only 3 devices or something like this.
Like almost everyone else here, I too made the request for a free player (before realizing I was not the first!). But I went further and even suggested it would only host ONE Rack Extension at a time, to avoid any of the possible negatives mentioned by others (and many disagreed with this idea, IIRC).

I say this because I believe there is a market for "non Reason" users to use Rack Extensions, which IMO is a different market than Reason users. And these folks likely don't want a $99 paywall in front of using Rack Extensions - no other plugin format has one.
Yes, the beauty of Reason is the interconnectivity of the rack, and yes, the limitation of only loading one RE at a time means no "Reason experience".
But IMO, it would act as a way to dip your toes in the shallow end of the Reason pool: buy an RE, get the free player, which leads to getting more REs, and which may or may not lead to a Reason purchase (but that's not the point - it's a bonus).

Reason Studios gets $$ for every RE sold, so this is a win/win and a way to open the market to a wider audience than if you limit access to those who own a version of Reason.
The paywall also exist with Kontakt, where some extensions nee full Kontakt.

I think only 1 RE is a bit too less and you are right, it will "remove" the Reason experience. Everybody should at least be able to hook up a Player or an LFO on the backside or a small Mixer.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

electrofux
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Post 31 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Loque wrote:
31 Jan 2020

Maybe it could be a bit more limited, so ppl are "forced" to buy Reason. Maybe only 3 devices or something like this.
Like almost everyone else here, I too made the request for a free player (before realizing I was not the first!). But I went further and even suggested it would only host ONE Rack Extension at a time, to avoid any of the possible negatives mentioned by others (and many disagreed with this idea, IIRC).

I say this because I believe there is a market for "non Reason" users to use Rack Extensions, which IMO is a different market than Reason users. And these folks likely don't want a $99 paywall in front of using Rack Extensions - no other plugin format has one.
Yes, the beauty of Reason is the interconnectivity of the rack, and yes, the limitation of only loading one RE at a time means no "Reason experience".
But IMO, it would act as a way to dip your toes in the shallow end of the Reason pool: buy an RE, get the free player, which leads to getting more REs, and which may or may not lead to a Reason purchase (but that's not the point - it's a bonus).

Reason Studios gets $$ for every RE sold, so this is a win/win and a way to open the market to a wider audience than if you limit access to those who own a version of Reason.
Good suggestion, sounds win-win to me.

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Koshdukai
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Post 31 Jan 2020

Martin Fridegren wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Koshdukai wrote:
30 Jan 2020
Now it's possible to publicly share things like this without breaking the NDA:

https://github.com/fredwillmore/SI2/blo ... README.txt
Good to see! Please note that you are required to include the RE License agreement in your project. Please add it, you may find the agreement here:
https://developer.reasonstudios.com/agr ... _agreement

It is also included in the SDK as a txt-file under /SDK/Licences

From the license file:
"With the exception of Rack Extension products distributed via Reason Studios' Shop, this license agreement and the copyright notice included herein must be distributed together with all copies of any results from your use of the Rack Extension SDK."

Best Regards,
Martin
Reason Studios
Thanks Martin.

I'll try to warn the project author about this (which "funnily" enough, AFAIK, published this before 2020, so... already breaking the NDA anyway) and your reply/post is actually a good resource to point at when noticing any other public projects that aren't respecting this requirement.

...but I'm doing a diff as I write this, comparing this SI2 with the original included SDK example to see if there's anything new in here beside basic customization of the project i.e. this SI2 "example" might not even be worth mentioning as educational example besides being just "the 1st" github RE project shared (probably before it was legal to do so).

Edit: ok, there's some good edits in there (including +2 waveforms and a Filter), versus SDK's 4.0 SimpleInstrument :) ...need to update my SDK to the latest version, btw, eh :P

Edit2: oh wait... the filter... :redface: ...ok, it's more like a WIP "mole" :D

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fieldframe
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Post 31 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Loque wrote:
31 Jan 2020

Maybe it could be a bit more limited, so ppl are "forced" to buy Reason. Maybe only 3 devices or something like this.
Like almost everyone else here, I too made the request for a free player (before realizing I was not the first!). But I went further and even suggested it would only host ONE Rack Extension at a time, to avoid any of the possible negatives mentioned by others (and many disagreed with this idea, IIRC).

I say this because I believe there is a market for "non Reason" users to use Rack Extensions, which IMO is a different market than Reason users. And these folks likely don't want a $99 paywall in front of using Rack Extensions - no other plugin format has one.
Yes, the beauty of Reason is the interconnectivity of the rack, and yes, the limitation of only loading one RE at a time means no "Reason experience".
But IMO, it would act as a way to dip your toes in the shallow end of the Reason pool: buy an RE, get the free player, which leads to getting more REs, and which may or may not lead to a Reason purchase (but that's not the point - it's a bonus).

Reason Studios gets $$ for every RE sold, so this is a win/win and a way to open the market to a wider audience than if you limit access to those who own a version of Reason.
I was thinking the same thing. A single-device rack plugin wouldn't compete with Reason at all, even if you bought the Synapse bundle. An RE-only customer would still get full use of all the individual instruments and effects in their DAW, but chaining, CV, Combinators, and mixers would all require a Reason license. I really think this would hit a sweet spot where there's value for non-Reason users in having these REs by themselves in a DAW, but there's also an implicit teaser that you could do a lot more with them if you bought Reason.

One additional feature this would require is MIDI out from the VST, so RE-only customers could use players, but I assume that's coming anyway.
Welcome to TEST FIXTURE

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eXode
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Post 31 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
31 Jan 2020
Yes, the beauty of Reason is the interconnectivity of the rack, and yes, the limitation of only loading one RE at a time means no "Reason experience".
But IMO, it would act as a way to dip your toes in the shallow end of the Reason pool: buy an RE, get the free player, which leads to getting more REs, and which may or may not lead to a Reason purchase (but that's not the point - it's a bonus).

Reason Studios gets $$ for every RE sold, so this is a win/win and a way to open the market to a wider audience than if you limit access to those who own a version of Reason.
Well put, I agree completely. :)

stp2015
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Post 31 Jan 2020

Yeah, agree with that. Matthias, make it happen.

Yonatan
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Post 01 Feb 2020

Agree that a free one RE container plugin that acts as a VST3 wrapper, is a good way to start. It is enough to make many buy and try RE:s (maybe 30 days for each device is a bit too much in those "free" cases? Let´s say 10 days trial). Such a wrapper is also enough for having contact with a bigger audience for RS, with ways to show them the fantastics about the Full feathered Reason Rack Plugin, and also the beauty of Reason Standalone mode. A wrapper would be too limited to compete with the whole Reason experience, but open up the RE shop for the developers and other DAW users to pick and choose their favorite RE:s. Not all are convinced they will need or want the Reason experience if they have already XYZ of a setup. But there are millions of potential RE buyers out there, and it is a win win. It makes RE:s a much more open format for cross developers. The big wall that hinders the RE developers now, will fall if people could buy just single RE devices directly. All will go through registering account at Reason Studios, and that step is no different than what one already has to do at every single VST maker today. The advantage with RE would be to have a platform with so many developers under one account. So, this move coupled with the new more "all are welcome to develop RE:s"-approach will have an enormous impact to get this RE platform to finally fly higher than ever before. With so many more "potential users" having an account, the Reason Rack Plugin and the Reason Standalone mode, will bring more and more to try and fall in love with the whole eco-system. And every little workflow improvement made onto Reason, will get many more to consider investing in Reason as a DAW, as a complementary or maybe as their main creative workstation.

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challism
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Post 01 Feb 2020

I agree with the idea of a free RE wrapper. That is really the only way I see this attract new developers, new REs and new buyers. The RE market has not been a good one the last year or so. I also agree that it should be extremely limited, but one device seems too limiting to me. To truly give the user a taste (tease) of Reason, they should be able to use at least two devices. Twos is enough to let them hook up a player to a synth, or an LFO to some effect, and really play around with the back side of the rack. It might also encourage them to buy more REs to use together or entice them to buy, at the very least, the $99 version.

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eXode
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Post 01 Feb 2020

challism wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I agree with the idea of a free RE wrapper. That is really the only way I see this attract new developers, new REs and new buyers. The RE market has not been a good one the last year or so. I also agree that it should be extremely limited, but one device seems too limiting to me. To truly give the user a taste (tease) of Reason, they should be able to use at least two devices. Twos is enough to let them hook up a player to a synth, or an LFO to some effect, and really play around with the back side of the rack. It might also encourage them to buy more REs to use together or entice them to buy, at the very least, the $99 version.
I dabbled with the idea (inside my head) of a wrapper that only allows one RE but that comes with i.e. one fixed Pulsar for some basic modulation routing goodness (for an example).

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pongasoft
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Post 01 Feb 2020

I am not convinced that a free RE wrapper which can host only one RE is right. The true power of Reason is how you can connect each other in truly unique fashion. You have to remember that Reason Studios take a cut of every single RE they sell... so even if they were to provide a free RE hosting platform that can host as many RE as Reason, it's not like they would not make any money of of it.

Here we have a chicken and egg problem... they need to attract users and developers.. they won't attract users if the barrier of entry is too high. They won't attract developers if they don't attract users.

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eXode
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Post 01 Feb 2020

pongasoft wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I am not convinced that a free RE wrapper which can host only one RE is right. The true power of Reason is how you can connect each other in truly unique fashion. You have to remember that Reason Studios take a cut of every single RE they sell... so even if they were to provide a free RE hosting platform that can host as many RE as Reason, it's not like they would not make any money of of it.
The 30% they earn from each RE sale isn't money? :P

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pongasoft
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Post 01 Feb 2020

eXode wrote:
01 Feb 2020
pongasoft wrote:
01 Feb 2020
I am not convinced that a free RE wrapper which can host only one RE is right. The true power of Reason is how you can connect each other in truly unique fashion. You have to remember that Reason Studios take a cut of every single RE they sell... so even if they were to provide a free RE hosting platform that can host as many RE as Reason, it's not like they would not make any money of of it.
The 30% they earn from each RE sale isn't money? :P
That is what I am saying (just reread the sentence ;)

Yan

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eXode
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Post 01 Feb 2020

pongasoft wrote:
01 Feb 2020
eXode wrote:
01 Feb 2020


The 30% they earn from each RE sale isn't money? :P
That is what I am saying (just reread the sentence ;)

Yan
Sorry, my glasses were off! 8-) ;)

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Boombastix
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Post 01 Feb 2020

A limited RRP is surely the wrong move, just gives users a bad taste. Better to arrange with in app purchases like most modern apps. Thor $29, Maelström $19, Subtractor $9, REs att current shop price, etc.

This is how the Reason iPad app works, the Korg app etc, this sales model work. So a free RRP with no DAW would be such a huge and right move to get new users to swarm into the RE world.
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orthodox
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Post 01 Feb 2020

Boombastix wrote:
01 Feb 2020
A limited RRP is surely the wrong move, just gives users a bad taste. Better to arrange with in app purchases like most modern apps. Thor $29, Maelström $19, Subtractor $9, REs att current shop price, etc.
I guess rewriting the built-in devices as REs would be a difficult task, and even impossible for some of them on the current SDK.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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challism
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Post 01 Feb 2020

I changed my mind after having slept on it. No limitations for the number of REs in the wrapper/RRP seems like the right move to me, because the customer first has to buy those REs in order to use them (or try and a trial runs out), and they should be allowed to use their purchases together in the Reason-esque environment, be it free or paid. The beautiful and most exciting part of Reason is on the back side of the rack, IMO.

They should also give away a few freebies with the wrapper. Why not? They aren't losing money by giving away already built devices to lure in potential new customers. Give away one utility (Pulsar), one effect (Pulverizer) and one instrument (Monotone) bundled in the wrapper. Are we calling that a RRP now?

And they need to release SDK 3.0 which eliminates all current limitations and puts REs on the same level as VSTs. Pipe dream? Maybe. But if they are to attract new users and (most importantly) new Devs, REs shouldn't have all the limitations they have.

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bxbrkrz
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Post 01 Feb 2020

So like Reason Studios, but free, and without the sequencer and the SSL mixer?

"Matthias, make it happen."
(My new favorite meme).

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