If modular is the future....

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
User avatar
orthodox
Posts: 1019
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 09 Jan 2020

One thing that I wouldn't know how to cope with if I was designing a modular synth in Reason cable infrastructure. It's instrument voice processing modules, because they actually stand for several instances, one for each voice, and cables between them would have to be able to conduct multiple channels of audio.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

User avatar
selig
Moderator
Posts: 8325
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 09 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
09 Jan 2020
One thing that I wouldn't know how to cope with if I was designing a modular synth in Reason cable infrastructure. It's instrument voice processing modules, because they actually stand for several instances, one for each voice, and cables between them would have to be able to conduct multiple channels of audio.
Oh yea, I didn't even get into that because I assumed monophonic modular (like Eurorack). Reaktor and others allow poly voice audio to be shared between modules, Reason does not, and there would still be potential timing issues between modules as I understand it (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this!).
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
orthodox
Posts: 1019
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 09 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
09 Jan 2020
and there would still be potential timing issues between modules as I understand it (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this!).
If the connection graph does not contain cycles, feedback loops, it can be solved by delay compensation. (Again, i may be wrong on this, too).
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 806
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

Post 09 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
09 Jan 2020
BRIGGS wrote:
09 Jan 2020


Image

You mean 'opinion'.

I was speaking of actual/absolute truth, which is not an opinion.

example: 2+2=4 :lol:
But you quoted an opinion, so I was confused…
;)
Right, RS may have yuge plans for rack extensions, now that the rack is a vst!

I'm hoping this is the case! :puf_smile:

My 'opinion' :lol: : I think rack extensions are fanfreakingtastic!

But, they are not tradable, and therefore not a store of value. Development has slowed, and stopped in some cases. I can understand why people would not be happy with the situation. :cry:

Till things get better, I suggest we make do with what we have. Which is awesome!!! :puf_smile:
buy BTC

User avatar
selig
Moderator
Posts: 8325
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 09 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
09 Jan 2020
If the connection graph does not contain cycles, feedback loops, it can be solved by delay compensation. (Again, i may be wrong on this, too).
Yes, but it gets more complex when CV also needs to be compensated, especially if you allow totally free patching as in a real modular. These things work fine in a single instrument like Complex-1, but things become exponentially trickier in the Rack. File under "don't hold your breath for this to be addressed…". :)
Selig Audio, LLC

Rackman
Posts: 46
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 09 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
09 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
08 Jan 2020
I think the idea that to do modular properly you have to have cables in the front is a misnomer. All the tools are there for Reason to have a great modular ecosystem, but although there are plenty of simple CV utils, REs (for the most part) haven't captured the real beauty of modular which is a variety of interoperable modules that are focussed on doing one (or a small subset) of things really well, or interestingly. There are lots of great oscillators and filters, but other than that the pickings are pretty slim. The noise engineering stuff is great, because they don't try and do everything (or even many things). Compare the list of VCV modules which have blossomed in a really short space of time: https://vcvrack.com/plugins.

I think the missed opportunely is that Propellerhead didn't embrace or encourage it. As I said above, I think this is because they are focussed on big-ticket romplers that maximise profit with minimal development. What is a shame is that 3rd party devs haven't taken much advantage of the absence of competition, but I think that stems from a much bigger problem - lack of confidence in the platform, and (as far as I understand it) a frustrating SDK with few updates. Software development is an expensive business, but I guess it shows what a small ecosystem this is that so few developers have embraced it, and so many have abandoned it.
You may have missed the part where I mentioned technical limitations keeping folks from fully embracing what you describe. Nothing more, nothing less IMO. Again, the missed opportunity was back when Reason was designed. The "batch delay" between all devices is but one reason why you can't build true modular systems in the Reason rack, and this affects CV as well as audio. The lack of adjusting the CV rate to allow audio rate modulation is another, which could be worked around by using audio jacks and dropping CV jacks.
My comments had nothing to do with cables on the front, confidence with the platform, etc. One of my very first ideas for Selig Audio way back in 2013 was a modular based system which I've posted here in the past. Others have considered it (and even announced it) then dropped out after researching the subject. This was YEARS ago, btw, not recently. I can't speak for the others, but for me I simply wasn't able to achieve what I wanted with the current limitations in the way Reason passes audio around in the rack, which has nothing to do with the RE SDK, ecosystem, or expense!
Apologies. I think I thought I was replying to another comment. But thanks for outlining the limitations of the platform. Looks like the hurdles are far greater than they appear. Good to hear your thoughts as someone who probably knows the SDK inside out.

User avatar
SebAudio
Posts: 85
Joined: 08 Mar 2015

Post 10 Jan 2020

It certainly would need another totally different sdk but I’ve been thinking that a way for 3rd parties to add new oscillators, filters or whatever inside of a « semi-modular shell » such as Thor would be great.

User avatar
O1B
Posts: 1780
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2020

... 2 + 2 = Modular + Hardware = Getting away from the "Computer all the time" ...




... maybe you can win the "Giveaway!"... anyone without Modular


User avatar
Oquasec
Posts: 2659
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

Post 10 Jan 2020

Modular was the past, present and future.
But that's because everything not modular is semimodular or already wired on the inside.
On a fundamental level you would prolly never stop seein em.
Cubase/FLS/Reason user.

User avatar
eXode
Posts: 726
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

selig wrote:
09 Jan 2020
The "batch delay" between all devices is but one reason why you can't build true modular systems in the Reason rack, and this affects CV as well as audio. The lack of adjusting the CV rate to allow audio rate modulation is another, which could be worked around by using audio jacks and dropping CV jacks.
It would have been cool if Reason Studios could develop a solution so that devices within a Combinator sync to the same batch somehow.

User avatar
eXode
Posts: 726
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

VK-2 Viking Synthesizer was designed as a modular system, similar to i.e. the Moog Modular Model 10/15

Although the default state is routed (for it to make some sort of standard sound) you can totally break the routing. Also if you enable Modular mode in the Poly settings, the oscillators and noise will drone continuously (i.e. if you route an oscillators raw output directly to a mix input. This is useful if you are using several instances of VK-2 in a Combinator, and want to route the oscillators directly into another filter, or another device for that matter.

It is also one of few devices that offers all waveforms of the oscillators and LFOs simultaneously, which greatly expands the modulation possibilities, imho (example, you can route LFO1 square to filter while at the same time routing LFO1 triangle to the pwm of oscillator 1).

The reason for doing it as a complete system and not stand alone modules (apart from the latency problem) was the benefit of being able to saving complete patches and offering polyphony.

VK-2 can be CPU intensive though, especially with polyphony and high quality settings enabled, but it is one of my go to instruments when it comes to analogue flavor, and that is including various VST offerings in the comparison.

Image

Image

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 806
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

Post 11 Jan 2020

eXode wrote:
11 Jan 2020
selig wrote:
09 Jan 2020
The "batch delay" between all devices is but one reason why you can't build true modular systems in the Reason rack, and this affects CV as well as audio. The lack of adjusting the CV rate to allow audio rate modulation is another, which could be worked around by using audio jacks and dropping CV jacks.
It would have been cool if Reason Studios could develop a solution so that devices within a Combinator sync to the same batch somehow.
This is how I imagine Complex-2....all the complex-1 and complex-2 modules + the ability for third parties to also make modules. :puf_smile:
buy BTC

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 1388
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

Is Complex-1 the best solution/compromise from Reason's technical limitations for going full modular right now?

A compromised hybrid solution (if the answer is yes):
Have the RS Store giving you the option of designing your modular system, cloud based at first, and from a specific number of modules. Another limitation could be the size of your modular system within the rack.
You could then try it from your web browser (that RS tech already exists somewhat) until you are satisfied with how it looks and sounds.
Then you go and click on "BUY". Once you do this, your unique system will then be "baked forever" into one RE, the result would be your homemade "Complex-1 based platform".

To me that would be the future.
:puf_smile:

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 806
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

Post 11 Jan 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
11 Jan 2020
Is Complex-1 the best solution/compromise from Reason's technical limitations for going full modular right now?

A compromised hybrid solution (if the answer is yes):
Have the RS Store giving you the option of designing your modular system, cloud based at first, and from a specific number of modules. Another limitation could be the size of your modular system within the rack.
You could then try it from your web browser (that RS tech already exists somewhat) until you are satisfied with how it looks and sounds.
Then you go and click on "BUY". Once you do this, your unique system will then be "baked forever" into one RE, the result would be your homemade "Complex-1 based platform".

To me that would be the future.
:puf_smile:
:puf_smile: yeah!!! :thumbs_up:

+custom knobs, switches, sliders, face plates, skins....colors...textures...etc. etc.

I was instantly reminded of the xbox design lab: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/c ... 77R3L:K51T
buy BTC

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 1388
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
11 Jan 2020
bxbrkrz wrote:
11 Jan 2020
Is Complex-1 the best solution/compromise from Reason's technical limitations for going full modular right now?

A compromised hybrid solution (if the answer is yes):
Have the RS Store giving you the option of designing your modular system, cloud based at first, and from a specific number of modules. Another limitation could be the size of your modular system within the rack.
You could then try it from your web browser (that RS tech already exists somewhat) until you are satisfied with how it looks and sounds.
Then you go and click on "BUY". Once you do this, your unique system will then be "baked forever" into one RE, the result would be your homemade "Complex-1 based platform".

To me that would be the future.
:puf_smile:
:puf_smile: yeah!!! :thumbs_up:

+custom knobs, switches, sliders, face plates, skins....colors...textures...etc. etc.

I was instantly reminded of the xbox design lab: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/c ... 77R3L:K51T
I wasn't going that far to be honest, at first. But yeah the end game will be +custom knobs, switches, sliders, face plates, skins....colors...textures...etc. etc.
One day. We can only hope! :D

DJMaytag
Posts: 187
Joined: 17 Jun 2015
Location: Madison, WI

Post 15 Jan 2020

lowtom wrote:
08 Jan 2020
I would like to see more Rack Extensions from Eurorack world inside Reason. Maybe someday, someone will port all Mutable Instruments stuff. It would be great.
The MI stuff would be great, but it would be amazing if more Noise Engineering's stuff made it to RE format. Mimetic Digitalis would be SO much fun in an RE!

I've talked to the 4ms guys at Knobcon in the past, and it's not really on their horizon, but QPLFO and PEG would also be neat. Really anything based on a digital/virtual platform should be a no-brainer to put into RE format.

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: clash482, CommonCrawl [Bot], eusti, Trendiction [Bot] and 3 guests